Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 24: Baghdad museum looting and library destruction

Entered by polygon on Tue Jun 24 14:18:45 2003:

Teresa Nielsen Hayden has this to say:
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002708.html#002708

    Baghdad Museum: Corrected corrections re-corrected 

    Damn, damn, damn. I would so much rather have been wrong. According
    to The Washington Post
    <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17897-2003Jun20.html>,
    the count of artifacts stolen from the National Museum of Antiquities
    now stands at 6,000, and is expected to rise. That's not counting
    artifacts stolen from other museums and known archaeological sites. 

    It's a depressingly plausible-sounding story. The recent report that
    only 33 priceless artifacts and some 3000 lesser artifacts were stolen
    is looking culpably inoperative. The freeperati's rush to publicize
    it, and demand apologies from those who criticized Rumsfeld et al., is
    looking worse.

    Shall we sit back and see who prints corrections? Will we need more
    than one hand? One suspects the entire point of the earlier report was
    to get as much publicity as possible for the magic number "33"; and
    then, once they'd got it stuck in people's minds, drop the story
    entirely.  Many of the people who've heard that "33" won't hear any
    subsequent versions unless the disinformationist conduits carry the
    story; or if they do hear them, they'll assume that more accurate
    later estimates are those supposedly overinflated figures that were
    demolished by the magic "33". 
19 responses total.

#1 of 19 by arianna on Tue Jun 24 17:29:18 2003:

unfortuantely, whether it was 1 or 33, they're gone and nothing can be done
to recover them.


#2 of 19 by aruba on Tue Jun 24 22:59:06 2003:

Well, it looks like it was neither 1 nor 33, but around 6000.  But at this
point, one shouldn't believe any numbers unless there's a list of stuff to
back them up, certified by an unbiased person who ought to know.


#3 of 19 by bru on Wed Jun 25 08:39:39 2003:

certainly things can be done to recover them.  Things are being done to
recover them.

how successful the work will be is yet to be determined.


#4 of 19 by pvn on Thu Jun 26 06:25:41 2003:

Boy.  First the number was 172,000 and now it is 6000.  Personally, I
wish it was zero but heh, there is a war going on so one has to accept a
certian amount of damage during a war.  (Library of Alexandria comes to
mind but betcha nobody knows that one.)  (Uh, I make that 97% wrong the
first time so there is nothing to suggest that much of an increase in
accuracy the second go round on the numbers.)
It also wouldn't suprise me if a lot of the missing stuff has been
actually missing for more than a couple months - more than many years.


#5 of 19 by rcurl on Thu Jun 26 18:48:30 2003:

There didn't HAVE to be a war, and if there had not been this massive
destruction and loss would not have occurred. 


#6 of 19 by bru on Fri Jun 27 01:23:28 2003:

well, since Saddam was looting the culture, who can say?


#7 of 19 by mdw on Fri Jun 27 02:15:11 2003:

Yes, but Saddam had terrible taste.  Only mod 1960's stuff was in any
danger of being looted from museums, and one could argue he's doing the
world and future art collectors a favor.


#8 of 19 by pvn on Fri Jun 27 04:01:39 2003:

Unfortunately thats not true, mdw.  Sadaam's henchmen were already
selling significant pieces on the gray market (gray, only because it was
"legal" in the sense that the buyer got official documentation).  I'd
not be a bit surprised if a lot of the looted stuff was actually gone
long before the fall of baghdad which provided a convenient cover.  It
is interesting how the looters manages also to burn records that would
have helped document a lot of this.  To thier credit a number of the
henchment apparently kept copies of documentation which I hear is being
offered in return for 'considerations'.


#9 of 19 by gull on Fri Jun 27 13:16:34 2003:

Re #8: But you would consider what he was doing good, right, because it
moved the objects from those public collections you hate so much into
private hands?


#10 of 19 by mdw on Fri Jun 27 17:36:12 2003:

I think we all knew Saddam was also into money.  Of course, that's
always been in style, even during the 60's.  If Saddam was sending
henchmen to "'steal' significant pieces", then that's starting to seem
less like evidence of his personal artistic sense, and more like a plot
for a 1960's batman episode.  Suddenly, WMD doesn't sound so fantastic -
it's just another bad plot device.


#11 of 19 by goose on Fri Jun 27 19:10:44 2003:

I have book on the Boing 747SP.  In it are photos of the Iraqi Airlines
747SP that was basically Saddam's plaything.  It's quite the pricy aircraft
and nothing says I've got a whole boatload of money and then some, like flying
to meetings in your own 747.....


#12 of 19 by gull on Fri Jun 27 20:36:13 2003:

What does the "SP" suffix indicate?


#13 of 19 by jazz on Fri Jun 27 21:01:38 2003:

        Super-posh!


#14 of 19 by mdw on Fri Jun 27 22:04:18 2003:

Apparently, "SP" means it's the shortest 747 model.  There's also the
-100 and -200.  The whole airliner market is depressed so you can buy a
747SP for "only" 5.9million USD.  The 747SP has its very own fan club,
        http://www.747sp.com/


#15 of 19 by gull on Mon Jun 30 15:53:02 2003:

Airbus is apparently moving forward with plans for their A380.  It's
going to have two full passenger decks and seat 555 people in a
three-class layout.  There's also going to be a freight version, the
A380F, that can carry 330,000 pounds on three decks.

Everyone expected this design to flop because American airlines are
moving towards smaller planes, but apparently Asian airlines are very
interested.


#16 of 19 by tod on Mon Jun 30 18:09:31 2003:

This response has been erased.



#17 of 19 by lk on Fri Jul 4 00:13:16 2003:

16:25   Iraqi National Museum reopens briefly to display Treasure of
        Nimrud, feared stolen during first days after fall of Saddam


#18 of 19 by pvn on Fri Jul 4 07:21:43 2003:

re#9: no. its wrong because the citizens of Iraq are denied the benefit
of their property.  Responding to the meta discussion, what I object to
is the rotting of stuff that is held in so called museums that are never
seen by any visitors that would otherwise fund the preservation of what
limited artifacts a museum can preserve where it legitimately sold on an
open market.  I recall a comment of a noted expert upon visiting the
Iraqi museum after the "looting" who initially noted how horrible it was
on viewing a room but then was further horrified to find out that that
particular room hadn't in fact been "looted" and what he saw was simply
the normal storage method -piles of junk.



#19 of 19 by tod on Mon Jul 7 16:53:54 2003:

This response has been erased.



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