Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 23: Facts

Entered by keesan on Tue Jun 24 08:21:51 2003:

Share interesting if not necessarily useful facts here.
92 responses total.

#1 of 92 by keesan on Tue Jun 24 08:28:10 2003:

Jim was reading a Dannon yogurt container that someone must have given us.
Light N' Fit.  Same taste, new name.  Less calories than regular low-fat
yogurt.  Apparently regular has 190 calories per serving, and Light has 120.
Non-fat yogurt is made from non-fat milk, corn thickener, and sweetener.
Non-fat milk is 80 calories per serving (1 cup).  So this low-calorie yogurt
has added 50% more calories in the form of corn thickener and fructose (and
aspartame) and is bragging about being low-calorie.  I had no idea 'regular'
yogurt contained 110 calories of sugar.

The other interesting ingredient was 'kosher gelatin'.  People who eat kosher
do not normally mix parts of dead animals with milk, operating on the law
'thou shalt not cook a calf in its mother's milk'.  This law has been extended
to eating chickens within six hours of eating cheese (fishes apparently don't
have mother's milk, chickens do).  So we assumed kosher gelatin was from
plant sources.  The web tells us that it is from the skins of cows that were
killed in a kosher manner (list their throat and bless them) and that had all
the muscle scraped off.  According to a lot of Hebrew words, this makes them
non-food and therefore they can be mixed with milk.  So a calf consists of
its muscles but not its skin.
And chickens are calves but fish are not.  The skin is decomposed chemically
and passes out of the food category and then back into it somehow.

Jim thought only Catholics were this crazy.  


#2 of 92 by pvn on Tue Jun 24 08:43:02 2003:

No, only racist, intolerant, anti-religious bigots are crazy enough to 
post such as #1.


#3 of 92 by i on Tue Jun 24 10:53:31 2003:

Heh.  Between the co$t, hassle, and complexity, my impression is that
most Jews don't even try to follow all of the dietary rules.  Not that
other groups of humans have any better a record on following religious
rules, Robert's Rules, generally accepted accounting practices, etc.


#4 of 92 by novomit on Tue Jun 24 12:29:38 2003:

What was so intolerant about grumbling about yogurt and silly dietary 
laws? 


#5 of 92 by other on Tue Jun 24 13:15:47 2003:

Nothing.  It's just early, and beady hasn't had his meds yet.


#6 of 92 by bhelliom on Tue Jun 24 14:18:41 2003:

Eric beat me to the explanation.  CURSES!


#7 of 92 by mynxcat on Tue Jun 24 14:48:07 2003:

Lol!

Though those rules are pretty funny.


#8 of 92 by polygon on Tue Jun 24 16:47:48 2003:

If you have any kind of a rule or distinction, you have to interpret it
in ambiguous real-life situations.  Reasonable people who accept the
original rule can and do differ on the specific application; situations
not imagined by the makers of the original rule have to be incorporated
somehow, even if it looks a bit odd.

In this case, the original rule cannot be amended, only reinterpreted. 
The rabbis who wrote those rules were doing the best they could.


#9 of 92 by klg on Tue Jun 24 17:16:14 2003:

Once again Ms. keesan proves to us that a little knowledge is a 
dangerous thing.

"IS YOUR "KOSHER" YOGURT KOSHER?, by Arlene Mathes-Scharf - Editor 
Kashrut.com, Copyright   Scharf Associates, 1999

"Yogurt is a highly nutritious food that is tasty, easy to obtain and 
transport. However, this cup of yogurt is not a simple product.
Manufacturers adjust the ingredients to make a creamy product and to 
control the calorie content.

"There has been a recent alert on Kashrut.com regarding the withdrawal 
of certification by the OU on some yogurt products because of the 
reformulation of the products to include gelatin.  Gelatin serves a 
number of useful functions in a yogurt product.  It forms a creamier 
product and keeps the fruit suspended in the yogurt.  It also serves as 
a bulking agent, reducing the calorie content, by replacing the yogurt 
with water.  Non-fat yogurt has 130 calories per 8 oz. without any 
sweeteners.  To get 100-calorie yogurt, less yogurt is used.

"Unfortunately there are a number of kashrus issues in the use of 
gelatin.  Gelatin, is by definition an animal product.  The gelatin
used in current yogurt products is produced from pork or non-kosher 
slaughtered beef.  Since there are rabbis who give kosher certification 
to these gelatins and the products produced from them, manufacturers 
call this gelatin "kosher" gelatin and put a "K" on the products.  The 
major certifying agencies do not consider this gelatin to be kosher.  A 
detailed summary can be found on the Star-K."


#10 of 92 by arianna on Tue Jun 24 17:27:54 2003:

brown cow yogurt: kosher. and yummy.


#11 of 92 by tod on Tue Jun 24 17:59:17 2003:

This response has been erased.



#12 of 92 by keesan on Tue Jun 24 20:29:46 2003:

Re #2, I was raised Jewish.  At one point my mother decided to stop using
separate dishes for meat and milk, because there was some rule that said you
could make things okay with a hot metal rod and we had moved to a house with
a dishwasher.  I don't think she actually used the drying cycle.

The Catholics, back when they followed the no meat during Lent rule, would
eat anything that swam, including fetal rabbits and dolphins, which were by
definition fishes.


#13 of 92 by bru on Tue Jun 24 21:56:10 2003:

HEY!  I had a conversation this last week with a jewish Rabbi who had just
come back from Canada to bless some animals for slaughter.  Turns out he wrote
the book on Kosher Gelatin.

(Or at least he says he did.)

he said that the bones of animals, both beef, and pork, could be used to make
kosher gelatin since the bone was not considered to be living.

I didn't have time to get into it deeper with him, and sent him on his way.
But I did think it rather weird.


#14 of 92 by polytarp on Tue Jun 24 22:08:45 2003:

This item reeks of anti-Semitism.  Don't even try to hide your hatred of
Israel.


#15 of 92 by mary on Tue Jun 24 23:15:01 2003:

Is Kosher meat slaughtered differently from other meat,
same animal?  What makes a chicken "Kosher"?


#16 of 92 by rcurl on Tue Jun 24 23:51:27 2003:

Mumbo jumbo....


#17 of 92 by polytarp on Wed Jun 25 00:06:10 2003:

Racists.


#18 of 92 by orinoco on Wed Jun 25 00:16:35 2003:

Kosher meat is slaughered differently, yes.  I knew the details once, but I
don't remember them very well.


#19 of 92 by russ on Wed Jun 25 01:56:12 2003:

According to conversation I've seen go by in the mail, something
becomes "not food" by Jewish law if a dog won't eat it.  If a dog
isn't interested in calf skin, it's not food by the rule and
neither milk nor meat (even if it is made edible later).

Reconciliation of this with dogs' propensity for rawhide chews
is a question I leave for people who actually care.


#20 of 92 by keesan on Wed Jun 25 02:55:45 2003:

They sell pig ears to feed to dogs.
My aunts used to buy live chickens and watch them be slaughtered in a kosher
manner.  This required slitting their throats, waiting for them to bleed to
death, soaking up the blood with salt, and reciting a blessing.  Blood is not
kosher for some reason.  

Why is the skin of a dead animal any less alive than its muscles?


#21 of 92 by jazz on Wed Jun 25 03:11:07 2003:

        What we're really talking about is ancient social conventions about
what's safe to eat and what's not, long before any understanding of disease,
that have become ossified in the rock of a religious text.  Some rules are
bound to be outright superstition, others rules of thumb ("RULE OF THUMB? 
Do you know what the rule of thumb was?!?" - madwymmin) about what's safe to
eat which aren't completely inclusive but are easy to remember, and still
others social conventions that mark the difference between "them" and "us"
in a culture.

        None of it's anywhere near as silly as something like the Adkins diet,
though, so I'm not sure I should regard such rules as archaic.


#22 of 92 by naftee on Wed Jun 25 03:29:44 2003:

Here's a useless fact:

The capital of Nebraska is Lincoln, but Abraham Lincoln wasn't born in
Nebraska!


#23 of 92 by jaklumen on Wed Jun 25 04:39:07 2003:

resp:20 Blood is not kosher because if I remember right, it is written 
that the blood contains the life.


#24 of 92 by polygon on Wed Jun 25 05:01:23 2003:

Re 22.  People tend to assume that Lincoln County, Maine, was named for
Abraham Lincoln.  However, the county was given that name before Abraham
Lincoln was born.


#25 of 92 by sj2 on Wed Jun 25 09:37:17 2003:

Re.13 "I had a conversation this last week with a jewish Rabbi who had 
just come back from Canada to bless some animals for slaughter."

Heh, whats to bless there? The being is going to die. A blessing is 
supposed to be for your good. Or do they bless that the dead animal's 
soul will go to heaven.

If you have to kill something just kill it. Eeeeooowww!! Why do you 
have to slit its throat and watch it die????? Some ancient enemity 
between humans and chicken?


#26 of 92 by novomit on Wed Jun 25 11:35:39 2003:

Sadistic pleasure. 


#27 of 92 by gull on Wed Jun 25 13:47:18 2003:

This response has been erased.



#28 of 92 by gull on Wed Jun 25 13:47:55 2003:

Re #25: Revenge for breeding new influenza viruses.


#29 of 92 by jazz on Wed Jun 25 13:50:00 2003:

        Blessing animals (or thanking them) before eating them is a pretty
common ritual in a number of religions, usually to prevent the spirits of the
animals from seeking vengeance.  That might've been where it came from. 
Blessing prepared food is pretty common, too.


#30 of 92 by tod on Wed Jun 25 16:13:36 2003:

This response has been erased.



#31 of 92 by gelinas on Wed Jun 25 17:44:57 2003:

Uh, the story I heard was that every meal, especially meals of meat, was
shared with Divinity.


#32 of 92 by tod on Wed Jun 25 17:50:24 2003:

This response has been erased.



#33 of 92 by dcat on Wed Jun 25 18:17:29 2003:

Is Divine dead?  I did not know that. . . .


#34 of 92 by tod on Wed Jun 25 18:47:55 2003:

This response has been erased.



#35 of 92 by naftee on Thu Jun 26 01:27:20 2003:

Affirmative.


#36 of 92 by other on Thu Jun 26 06:17:28 2003:

"Dork" is NOT the proper term for the penis of a whale, unless it has 
somehow not made it into any of the reliable dictionaries on the web.


#37 of 92 by pvn on Thu Jun 26 06:50:14 2003:

The question often comes up about turning on or off lights during
shabbat.  Here's what you do.  First of all, you use mercury bulb
switches from a goy vendor and installed by a goy non-union electrician.
Then you have the switch turned on or off by a trained monkey, but
here's the key.  It has to be a borrowed trained monkey - you can't be
the actual owner of the monkey.

There is some discussion of using motion detecting digital circuits to
replace the monkey and the goy mercury switch as it is cheaper in the
long run (gotta feed the monkeys) but this remains an open discussion
issue and will probably be settled in the next century or so.  To be
safe, go for the monkey.


#38 of 92 by keesan on Thu Jun 26 08:48:20 2003:

I thought it was just that you had to have your Christian neighbor come in
and turn on the stove on Saturdays.  Never heard about lights.  My fanatic
upstairs neighbor while growing up (who wore sneakers on Yom Kippur rather
than leather which might be edible) thought it was okay to walk to shul but
not to drive.  Maybe something related to making the horses work harder?
This all turns into something like fraternity rules - everyone does the same
silly things and belongs to the same group.

My mother dropped the no milk and meat at a meal rule after I came back from
summer camp several pounds lighter, at age 12.  The Christians would eat pork
for supper and the rest of us got peanut butter sandwiches on wonder bread.
Ugh.  (Sort of like the computer recycling conference where they provided
lunch - 1" of dead turkey for the carnivores, two slices of cucumber for the
rest of us in a sandwich with a bit of tomato as well).

Are there non-Halal Muslims (or people who were at least brought up Muslim?).


#39 of 92 by klg on Thu Jun 26 16:53:24 2003:

We would caution anybody against believing anything in this item 
relating to ritual Jewish slaughter.  That being said, we would venture 
a guess that the shochet (ritual slaughterer) would say a blessing to 
thank G-d for providing the animals as food for man, rather 
than "blessing" the animals, per se.


#40 of 92 by goose on Thu Jun 26 17:42:17 2003:

Do you somehow have unique qualifications in ritual Jewish slaughter?
Why the fuck should we believe you over some of the others in this item
whom I know to be Jewish?


#41 of 92 by rcurl on Thu Jun 26 18:47:05 2003:

I've always been puzzled about people that tie their behavior to
presciptions that don't appear to have a basis in some practical purpose. 
I've been trying to think if I follow any such rule system on anything,
but I can't think of any examples. I also don't recall ever having done so
in the past at any age. I have my likes and dislikes, and perhaps some
food fads (like generally cooking pork, but eating beef pretty raw, which
I think is tied to the once possibility of trichanosis), but as far as I
can recall I follow absolutely zero food, clothing, or behavioral
practices not founded in secular law, practicality, generally followed
social customs, or just preference. It does seem strange that this could
be the case, given the prevalence of such practices, but it seems
perfectly natural to me. Have I overlooked something? I do lay the table
with the fork, knife and spoon in the conventional locations, and do many
other things like that, but don't think that these are things that must be
done "or else" - they just make life a little easier by not having to
reinvent everything as one lives, and if I moved to a country that did it
differently, I would probably eventually adopt the local custom, it not
mattering to me one way or another (except I don't think I could eat my
peas off the back of the fork).



#42 of 92 by tod on Thu Jun 26 18:49:05 2003:

This response has been erased.



#43 of 92 by tod on Thu Jun 26 23:27:13 2003:

This response has been erased.



#44 of 92 by gull on Fri Jun 27 13:15:08 2003:

In a modern version of the story, he would then be promptly sued for
copyright infringement. ;)


#45 of 92 by klg on Fri Jun 27 16:17:52 2003:

Mr. goose,
We find your reponse, to say the least, foolish and boorish.  You may 
ignore us if you wish, but there is no need for such distasteful 
language!
Regards,
klg


#46 of 92 by goose on Fri Jun 27 18:58:06 2003:

Foolish, hardly.  Boorish, I'll accept that.  However a question remains:
In what way are you uniquely qualified in topics of ritual slaughter?

To be honest though, I don't really care.  I should ignore you, you annoy me.
If the reverse is true, so be it.


#47 of 92 by mynxcat on Fri Jun 27 19:38:54 2003:

Yay! Flame war!!


#48 of 92 by tod on Fri Jun 27 21:05:31 2003:

This response has been erased.



#49 of 92 by klg on Sat Jun 28 00:59:21 2003:

Now, having had the opportunity to consult our home library, we find 
that: "the shochet recites the blessing 'who has hallowed us by thy 
commandments and commanded us regarding ritual slaughter.'"

A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice, Rabbi Isaac Klein, JTSA, NY 1979.


#50 of 92 by pvn on Sat Jun 28 08:54:20 2003:

Uh, I wanna get me some ribs and BBQ them.  I don't give a hoot or
hollar if some rabbit got paid to say a few words one way or another.
I'm going to "Moo and Oink" where you can get a whole pail of fresh
chitlins for real cheap.  (frie them suckers in sesame oil for snack)


#51 of 92 by oval on Sat Jun 28 18:03:03 2003:

antisemite! ;)



#52 of 92 by jaklumen on Sun Jun 29 08:27:25 2003:

*shrug* me likes pork.  I'd have a hard time keeping kosher law 
because well, although I could maybe give up pork, man, I could never 
give up shellfish.  Shrimp?  Scallop?  Crab?  Lobster?  *sigh*  No way!


#53 of 92 by tpryan on Wed Jul 2 16:00:07 2003:

        rats live on no evil star


#54 of 92 by other on Wed Jul 2 17:42:27 2003:

A man, a plan, a canal. Panama!


#55 of 92 by tod on Wed Jul 2 18:05:17 2003:

This response has been erased.



#56 of 92 by janc on Thu Jul 3 22:33:24 2003:

Rob ran, nasal lad, Dallas - Ann Arbor.


#57 of 92 by slestak on Wed Jul 9 08:07:24 2003:

Most processed foods are equipped with "supplements". These beautiful food
additives were created to appeal to our taste for something sweet and
exciting!! Real foods have become unappealing to most folks these days. Many
additives were designed with the failing farmer in mind. Corn syrup is a good
example. Vitamins are "byproducts" sometimes harvested from processing raw
foods. Vitamins are additives too! What will we be eating in ten years? "Fast
Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All American Meal" Eric Schlosser....Good
reading before any meal...I think Grex is great food.


#58 of 92 by void on Wed Jul 9 20:54:29 2003:

   Tulsa night life?  Filth, gin, a slut!


#59 of 92 by fitz on Wed Jul 9 21:36:33 2003:

If you haven't checked your Dannon products lately, the company lowered the
calories/container by shrinking the size from 8 oz. to 6 oz. net weight.  The
gelatin was an ingredient in the Blended and Fit 'n' Creamy lines already.

Dannon still makes two lines that contain no gelatine.


#60 of 92 by keesan on Thu Jul 10 09:38:15 2003:

There is a dairy in Dearborn that makes yogurt from milk and bacterial
cultures and no pectin or cornstarch or gelatin.  It dissolves in soup much
better without these pudding-additives.  Also tastes much better than the
supermarket brands.  We got some from Alladin's Market on Packard.


#61 of 92 by tod on Thu Jul 10 15:53:41 2003:

This response has been erased.



#62 of 92 by keesan on Thu Jul 10 16:05:47 2003:

Yogurt has live bacteria and less fat and is non-refined.


#63 of 92 by mynxcat on Thu Jul 10 16:41:10 2003:

Have you never made yoghurt at home? It's fairly simple if you have 
about a spoonful of yoghurt to start with. We do it all the time in 
India


#64 of 92 by tod on Thu Jul 10 17:09:03 2003:

This response has been erased.



#65 of 92 by keesan on Fri Jul 11 12:25:28 2003:

Yogurt is easier to make in warm weather.  Otherwise you need to rig up some
sort of heater.


#66 of 92 by orinoco on Fri Jul 11 14:12:53 2003:

I've heard that if you have a gas oven, you can leave yoghurt in it to keep
it warm.  Apparently, the head of the pilot light is enough to bring the
temperature up into the 80s where the bacteria like it.  


#67 of 92 by gull on Fri Jul 11 14:26:35 2003:

Do gas ovens still have pilot lights?  I assumed they'd all have
electronic ignition by now.

A single low-wattage light bulb inside some kind of box ought to bring
the temperature up to 80.  A breadbox would work well, if anyone still
has breadboxes.


#68 of 92 by orinoco on Fri Jul 11 15:25:15 2003:

The gas stove in my apartment in Pittsburgh had pilot lights under all the
burners; I assume it had one for the oven too.  Of course, that wasn't so much
a recent model.


#69 of 92 by jules on Fri Jul 11 15:27:30 2003:

my bf is from pittsburgh.


#70 of 92 by keesan on Fri Jul 11 15:38:49 2003:

Styrofoam cooler would hold in more heat in cold weather.


#71 of 92 by gull on Fri Jul 11 15:42:12 2003:

Yeah...I was thinking breadbox because it's metal and wouldn't present a
fire hazard.


#72 of 92 by scott on Fri Jul 11 16:18:18 2003:

In a metal tin on top of the water heater, maybe?


#73 of 92 by mynxcat on Fri Jul 11 16:33:58 2003:

I haven't seen them here, but in India we get these insulated 
casserole dishes. Usually used to store chappattis, because they 
stayed fresher, but excellent for making yoghurt


#74 of 92 by tod on Fri Jul 11 16:41:18 2003:

This response has been erased.



#75 of 92 by jiffer on Fri Jul 11 16:41:59 2003:

Get some of those microwavable heat packs, a cooler, a digital 
thermometer with a probe... heat up the packs, put in cooler, warm up 
inside, check thermometer for designed temp.., adjust heat pack warm up 
time to what you desire... cont.


#76 of 92 by tod on Fri Jul 11 16:53:14 2003:

This response has been erased.



#77 of 92 by rcurl on Fri Jul 11 17:00:44 2003:

The top of your (CRT) monitor, with perhaps a box over it, should make a
good warmer.

I made a themostatted spce warmer with a (second-hand) aquarium thermostat
and a (second-hand) warming plate.



#78 of 92 by keesan on Fri Jul 11 18:13:54 2003:

I don't leave my monitor on overnight.  The water heater is insulated.
Jim puts things on top of his refrigerator to keep them warm, near the back.


#79 of 92 by mynxcat on Fri Jul 11 18:58:27 2003:

Resp 74> I said "store" chapattis, not "make" chapattis. We usually 
roll them out and make them on a round iron skillet. 


#80 of 92 by jmsaul on Fri Jul 11 22:12:18 2003:

Not all gas ovens have pilot lights.  Some use piezoelectric igniters.


#81 of 92 by fitz on Sat Jul 12 21:26:30 2003:

ABC Warehouse still had two models with pilot lights.  I was as surprised as
others.

Regarding yogurt, I incubate mine in a water bath warmed by an Westbend
electric Dutch oven.  I've marked the dial on the control, so I don't remember
the incubation temperature.

Sucessive batches tend to get more powerfully sour.  Anybody else notice this?
I might make five batches and then buy a new starter.


#82 of 92 by keesan on Sun Jul 13 12:35:34 2003:

Maybe you are getting some wild microorganisms dropping in?  Do you cover the
yogurt?  We have been given an electric deep fryer - it might go cool enough.


#83 of 92 by scott on Sun Jul 13 12:46:31 2003:

There might actually be some kind of bacteria inhibiter in the original yogurt
which gets progressively diluted through several batches.  That might be
keeping the nasty stuff at bay, or perhaps keeping the actual culture from
eating too much of the sugar.


#84 of 92 by other on Sun Jul 13 12:54:45 2003:

It could also be that the population of bacteria in the same physical 
quantity of starter you use is increasing each time, so the total 
duration of the process results in far greater numbers with far greater 
effect.

Try either reducing the processing time or the amount of starter or both 
on subsequent efforts.


#85 of 92 by other on Sun Jul 13 12:55:06 2003:

(Or the temperature...)


#86 of 92 by fitz on Mon Jul 14 16:04:13 2003:

I like the idea of reducing the processing time.  My temperture was orginally
set with the aid of my darkroom thermometer.  If the information I had at
the time was accurate, it was the ideal temperature for growing lactobacillus
bulgaricus alone.  Departures from the ideal temperature favored the culture
of other un-yogurt-like bacteria.

Yes, I did cover my containers and the milk was scalded and cooled before
innoculation.


#87 of 92 by keesan on Mon Jul 14 16:36:22 2003:

There are two cultures in the yogurt I bought, the other being acidophilus.


#88 of 92 by russ on Mon Jul 14 22:12:25 2003:

Re #84:  Or the culture is not a single strain but a community, and the
relative populations shift away from the best-taste ratio over time.
Changing the conditions of fermentation might make a difference there.


#89 of 92 by tod on Tue Jul 15 17:44:23 2003:

This response has been erased.



#90 of 92 by fitz on Wed Jul 16 05:55:42 2003:

>#88:  Very likely that is the case, since I'm using an active culture
commercial yogurt as a starter each time.


#91 of 92 by eprom on Sun Aug 17 20:42:07 2003:

I was suprised to read that Cecil Rhodes, the founder of the Rhodes 
Scholarship played a big part in setting the foundation for South 
Africas' apartheid. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/10/wfound10.xm
l



#92 of 92 by naftee on Tue Aug 26 14:52:31 2003:

Surprising, iSN"T IT?


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