Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 216: 09/11/01 On the anniversary of...

Entered by bru on Thu Sep 11 17:01:00 2003:

There Are No Words (K. Donohoe, 2001)

there are no words there is no song
there is no balm that can heal these wounds that will last a lifetime long
and when the stars have burned to dust
hand in hand we still will stand because we must

in one single hour in one single day
we were changed forever something taken away
and there is no fire that can melt this heavy stone
that can bring back the voices or the spirits of our own

all the brothers all the lovers all the friends that are gone
all the chairs that will be empty in the lives that will go on
can we ever forgive though we never will forget
can we believe in the milk of human goodness yet

we were forged in freedom we were born in liberty
we came here to stop the twisted arrows cast by tyranny
and we won't bow down we are strong of heart
we are a chain together that won't be pulled apart

56 responses total.

#1 of 56 by happyboy on Thu Sep 11 18:32:26 2003:

corny postings like that just cheapen the memory
specifically the last verse...

"we were forged in freedom we were born in liberty"

bullshit, unless the writer is a the CEO of some multinational.


#2 of 56 by flem on Thu Sep 11 18:40:20 2003:

Sounds like somebody is unappreciative of the genius of democracy!  :)


#3 of 56 by happyboy on Thu Sep 11 18:45:02 2003:

i happen to think BRUSE is "the genuis of democracy"


#4 of 56 by anderyn on Thu Sep 11 20:15:26 2003:

Kitty Donohoe isn't the CEO of a multinational but she is a rather good folk
singer who wrote this the day/night of the 9/11 tragedy. I happen to like it
and don't think it's corny at all. It makes me cry every time I hear it.


#5 of 56 by rcurl on Thu Sep 11 20:20:56 2003:

Look upon  it as a cry of anguish. It isn't  meant to be logical. 


#6 of 56 by anderyn on Thu Sep 11 20:28:18 2003:

Thank you Rane, for that. It is exactly what it is. It was recorded by the
weekend of that week, and I can hear the pain whenever I listen to it. (The
recording was sold as a fundraiser for the Red Cross.)


#7 of 56 by happyboy on Thu Sep 11 21:21:18 2003:

re4 so it's effective propaganda, the final verse anyway.


#8 of 56 by jaklumen on Fri Sep 12 07:00:21 2003:

My thoughts are probably a little different than maybe Joe Average so 
I don't get moved by stuff like this, really.  It's a complex issue 
that's so many shades of gray and not black and white for me.  A great 
tragedy, yes.  But I don't feel indignation or certain passionate 
patriotism-- I see warring cultures that fail to understand each 
other, that at their worst cry to their God for vengeance and blood.

I do not see this as a single event: we have had other terrorist 
attacks.  One was committed by an American-- Timothy McVeigh.

I also feel that this may be a type and a shadow of things to come-- 
or at least, this is a warning sign.

I was at a 9/11 remembrance service today for work.  I patiently 
waited through the stuff I felt was dogmatic and such, but the 
representative from the local Islamic Society seemed to have an impact 
on me, and I had a good feeling about his words.  He came to bring a 
message from his community condemning the attacks and comforting the 
victims.  Of course not all Muslims support the terrorists-- some are 
very supportive of this country.  The shadow issues still lie there... 
how do we support them, they that are in this country?  Do we still 
believe in peace?  Will we have a vengeful heart?


#9 of 56 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 07:22:25 2003:

good questions.


#10 of 56 by mynxcat on Fri Sep 12 14:05:07 2003:

I felt more for the New York skyline losing the Twin Towers. If I had lost
someone in the attacks, I may have felt differently today


#11 of 56 by gull on Fri Sep 12 14:22:29 2003:

Re #4: Perhaps if I heard it sung it would be more moving.  I tend to
find lyrics pretty flat when I just read them and don't know the tune
behind them.

Just don't make me listen to "Have You Forgotten" or "Iraq and I Roll".


#12 of 56 by flem on Fri Sep 12 14:53:40 2003:

Heh.  

#0 reminds me of nothing so much as bad teenage angst poetry. 


#13 of 56 by klg on Fri Sep 12 16:26:46 2003:

Discompassionate Liberalism???


#14 of 56 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 16:41:50 2003:

no...just lyrical tripe.


#15 of 56 by anderyn on Fri Sep 12 16:44:03 2003:

Agreed, that it's probably more emotionally engaging heard, but it does work
as a song. Believe you me. I can still hear it in my head after reading the
lyrics. (And I also listened to Neil Young's "Let's Roll" yesterday. I won't
bore anyone with the lyrics to that.)


#16 of 56 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 16:48:06 2003:

/cues "Proud to be an American"


#17 of 56 by rcurl on Fri Sep 12 17:20:21 2003:

Re #10: you care about urban skylines? I care about natural skylines -
mountains and such, but urban skylines? They will all be imploded some
day and people will be glad to see out the old and build the new. 


#18 of 56 by mynxcat on Fri Sep 12 17:39:31 2003:

I'm an urban kinda girl. Maybe you give me the reason that I care about them.
They're alway changing, but you expect to see the same skyline for most of
your life, not for just a brief period. And most urban skylines change to show
progress, the addition of a skyscraper here, the pulling down of an decrepit
one there. New york's change did not mark progress. The buildings took 12
years to build, stood for 27 years and took next to no time to collapse. Maybe
that's what I'm angry about.

And the skyline doesn't look that cool anymore *shrug*


#19 of 56 by rcurl on Fri Sep 12 17:48:54 2003:

The WTC was built after I moved out of New York, so it was never part
of the skyline of "my" NYC. I'm sure I would notice the gap, however, if
the Enpire State building was taken down. But that's just a change from the
familiar. I have no emotion invested in the Empire State building. 

But even after they were built, I thought the WTC looked incongruous. The NYC
skyline was made up of lots of different building, but most of which had some
investment of architectural inventiveness. The WTC had none: two incongruously
large parallelpipeds, out of all proportion to anything else in the city. 


#20 of 56 by mynxcat on Fri Sep 12 17:52:57 2003:

We differ on that. I thought they tied in everything very nicely. 


#21 of 56 by katie on Fri Sep 12 18:39:43 2003:

Kitty won a Grammy for that song, and it's been recorded by Paul Stookey.


#22 of 56 by gull on Fri Sep 12 18:46:46 2003:

I've never thought the WTC towers were good looking buildings.  They
showcased the totally unimaginative, functionalist nature of
architecture at the time, as well as the arrogance of the Port
Authority.  It's tragic that they fell the way they did, but they don't
represent any kind of artistic loss.  I think it's been long enough
since the tragedy that we can start admitting to ourselves again that
they were ugly firetraps.


#23 of 56 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 18:48:37 2003:

re21:  it was probably ORDERED to happen by clearchannel.


#24 of 56 by anderyn on Fri Sep 12 19:30:02 2003:

I didn't know Kitty won a Grammy. Good for her!


#25 of 56 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 19:36:48 2003:

AND JESUS WUVZ CLEARCHANNEL!


#26 of 56 by newjp2 on Mon Sep 15 12:54:47 2003:

22:  The buildings were pretty damned ugly, the Port Authority was dead on
in its arrogance in the end.


#27 of 56 by mynxcat on Mon Sep 15 14:52:38 2003:

Matter of opinion.


#28 of 56 by rcurl on Mon Sep 15 16:15:40 2003:

What features of the buildings did you find particularly attractive, munxcat?


#29 of 56 by mynxcat on Mon Sep 15 16:30:15 2003:

I liked the clean lines, and the fact that it was made for functionality,
rather than beauty. Also they were built with the idea of making them the
tallest in the world. And as I've mentioned before, I thought they added a
lot of character to the sky-line.



#30 of 56 by happyboy on Mon Sep 15 16:50:41 2003:

like a pair of legos in an art deco mural.

they were almost a dada statement or something.


#31 of 56 by mynxcat on Mon Sep 15 17:01:33 2003:

dada statement?


#32 of 56 by happyboy on Mon Sep 15 17:10:20 2003:

yep.


like a pie in the face during a christening
instead of holy water.




#33 of 56 by mynxcat on Mon Sep 15 17:26:32 2003:

Well, that could be said, yes.


#34 of 56 by slynne on Mon Sep 15 22:58:41 2003:

I thought they looked pretty at night when some of the lights would be 
on but not all of them. I also think that they added something to the 
NYC skyline as a whole even though they were pretty ugly when taken 
just by themselves. 


#35 of 56 by tod on Tue Sep 16 05:14:01 2003:

This response has been erased.



#36 of 56 by newjp2 on Tue Sep 16 13:10:10 2003:

If it doesn't have setbacks, it does not belong on the NY skyline.  I also
think the Citigroup building is pretty ugly.


#37 of 56 by slynne on Tue Sep 16 15:35:07 2003:

Is that the one that looks like a giant lipstick?


#38 of 56 by newjp2 on Tue Sep 16 15:49:01 2003:

Yes.


#39 of 56 by albaugh on Thu Sep 18 03:55:27 2003:

Something making the rounds:

Since America is typically Represented by an eagle, Saddam should have
read up on his Muslim passages... The following verse is from the Quran
(the Islamic Bible):

Quran (9:11) -- "For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a
fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the
lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair
still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of
Allah; and there was peace."


#40 of 56 by tod on Thu Sep 18 05:30:52 2003:

This response has been erased.



#41 of 56 by bru on Thu Sep 18 12:34:20 2003:

the real text..

[9.11] But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are
your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who
know.


#42 of 56 by dah on Thu Sep 18 18:15:24 2003:

The real text is in Arabic.


#43 of 56 by bru on Thu Sep 18 20:52:28 2003:

11. Fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalata waatawoo alzzakata fa-ikhwanukum fee
alddeeni wanufassilu al-ayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona

picky, picky, picky...


#44 of 56 by mynxcat on Thu Sep 18 20:57:32 2003:

The script is wrong. 


#45 of 56 by dah on Thu Sep 18 21:14:00 2003:

May Allah strike you dead and down, bru, for your transgressions against
Islam.  The Koran must be published only in original Arabic.


#46 of 56 by scott on Thu Sep 18 21:33:23 2003:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392

[9.11] But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are
your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who
know.

As usual, you're being lied to but are too lazy to actually find out the truth
for yourself.


#47 of 56 by bru on Thu Sep 18 22:56:48 2003:

isn't that what I said in 41 scott?

If the Quran is only published in the original arabic, they will get no
converts, adn they will die out in time.
Allah is forgiving, so I am told.


#48 of 56 by dah on Fri Sep 19 00:33:11 2003:

Converts will learn Arabic or go to Arabhell.


#49 of 56 by scott on Fri Sep 19 02:42:39 2003:

Oops, missed bru's #41 somehow.  Same text, anyway.

The Koran *should* be published in many languages!  A lot of the fanaticism
comes from the idea that only Farsi-reading specialists should read, let alone
interperet, the Koran.  Sort of like the Catholic Church in some cases?  


#50 of 56 by bru on Fri Sep 19 03:20:07 2003:

Islam needs a modern day Martin Luther to challenge the leadership.

"Print the Koran in ALL lamguages."


#51 of 56 by tod on Fri Sep 19 04:20:05 2003:

This response has been erased.



#52 of 56 by gelinas on Fri Sep 19 04:49:28 2003:

The Qur'an was/is written in Arabic, not Farsi.  Part of Islam's claim to
inerrancy is that the text has never been translated and so is not subject
to "lost in translation."  Still, interpretations in other languages
are available; I have one that has both the Arabic text and an English
interpretation.

And interpretations have been quoted above.


#53 of 56 by scott on Fri Sep 19 11:17:19 2003:

Here's what I started wondering later last night:
I first did a search for "eagle" in the online Koran I posted.  No hits at
all.  Hey, I bet the eagle is not native in that part of the world...


#54 of 56 by klg on Fri Sep 19 16:48:22 2003:

Based our recollections of readings about Israel, we believe Mr. scott 
would lose that bet.


#55 of 56 by dah on Fri Sep 19 18:19:35 2003:

And Allah can see everything.


#56 of 56 by happyboy on Fri Sep 19 19:22:45 2003:

/puts tinfoil cap on head


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