Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 214: The Drugs Item

Entered by slynne on Thu Sep 11 14:40:58 2003:

Ok, Please talk about drugs here. 

Should pot be legal? What about other recreational drugs?
41 responses total.

#1 of 41 by mynxcat on Thu Sep 11 15:48:08 2003:

Do I have to copy-paste my response? 


#2 of 41 by slynne on Thu Sep 11 16:45:08 2003:

No, you dont *have* to. :)


#3 of 41 by mynxcat on Thu Sep 11 16:48:57 2003:

But what if people miss it??


#4 of 41 by slynne on Thu Sep 11 16:50:32 2003:

Well, then you had better cut and paste it here. That way no one will 
miss it :)

Personally, I dont really care a whole lot about this issue. All the 
drugs I do are either legal or so easy to get, they might as well be. 
The status quo is fine with me. 

However, I have to say that in principle, I support the end of most 
drug prohibition. There are some recreational drugs that are dangerous 
enough that I think they should only be made available with 
supervision. Not a prescription necessarily since I dont imagine many 
doctors would feel good about prescribing recreational drugs. There 
have been programs like this for heroin in England that seemed to have 
some success. I certainly believe that marijuana should be legal or at 
the very least, decriminalized. 


#5 of 41 by mynxcat on Thu Sep 11 17:05:52 2003:

My post up in the other was in essence that I think people should strt
focussing on the effects of pot-addiction and prolonged pot use rather that
"judgement impairing" and "accident causing" issues that a lot of people are
harping about. These are caused by other factors also, like alcohol, and
harping on these isn't going to change anyone's minds about these drugs.

My opinion is that as recreational drugs that are used once in way, I see very
little harm done, but people need to be made aware that becoming dependant
on these as pick-me-ups and as a means to escape reality is harmful. And I
see very little being focussed on this issue.

I don't think pot should be illegal. If pot is illegal, then alcohol should
be made illegal too. And I've not heard of people high on pot breaking into
bar fights.


#6 of 41 by albaugh on Thu Sep 11 17:42:06 2003:

Sorry, equating MJ with alcohol is erroneous, and is not an arugument for
legalizing / decriminalizaing MJ.  Doing so has to stand on its own merits.


#7 of 41 by flem on Thu Sep 11 18:29:53 2003:

I don't buy that.  The argument equating marijuana with alcohol works like
this:  In a free country, doing something should be illegal if and only if
there are strong reasons for it to be illegal.  If a given argument for
outlawing marijuana also applies to alcohol, then either a) alcohol should
also be outlawed, or b) the reason in question is not a strong enough reason
to justify outlawing marijuana either.
  Personally, I am not familiar with any reasons that smoking pot should be
illegal that aren't pretty weak. 


#8 of 41 by happyboy on Thu Sep 11 18:39:05 2003:

it will make the fistfighting drunks more mellow and there will
be less work for the ER doctors to do as a result.  there will
be
massive doctor lay offs, less people in prison so lots of
guards will have to work at hardee's for less money and all of
the above will create an economic collapse which will result in 
more unhappy americans who can no longer afford cable so they
will turn to radical taliban-like islam and start bombing
places like comcast hq, and the local hardee's.

UNLESS THEY MELLOW OUT AND SMOKE MORE POT!

so, as you can see, pot is really pretty bad.


#9 of 41 by gull on Thu Sep 11 19:57:00 2003:

Heh.  It's true that while I've been accosted by drunks on multiple
occasions, I've never met a belligerant stoner.


#10 of 41 by happyboy on Thu Sep 11 21:19:59 2003:

"dude, smoke pot with me or i'll beat you up...uh,
 what was i saying?"


#11 of 41 by jep on Fri Sep 12 01:30:48 2003:

As one kid is about to enter his teenage years (he's 12, I mean) and 
the other is only a few years away from that, I think about drugs as 
something I hope doesn't affect their lives.  I regard myself as 
beyond my drug-abusing years.  If I were going to get into drugs, or 
become an alcoholic, it would have happened over the last two years, I 
expect.

For the boys, I'd rather not have them smoke either marijuana or 
tobacco.  I'm about equally against them both; tobacco because of my 
own background, marijuana because of the law and because I regard it 
as an entry-level "drug".

I probably won't have much to do with how my stepson lives his life, 
but my son will know -- he knows now -- I am firmly against him using 
these two things.  As he gets older, I'll talk with him more about my 
views, and the rules in our home, and consequences for not following 
the rules.

I expect ther boys will drink alcohol.  I hope if they do, they do it 
the way I do, an occasional beer and not much more than that.  My son 
has a sip of my beer occasionally.  I hope it's not bad for him.  I 
hope I'm showing him how I treat alcohol and that he'll adopt my view 
for himself.

I don't really know anything about the other drugs besides alcohol.  I 
wouldn't want the kids to be the way I usually think of habitual drug 
users.  I think of a drug user as a guy sitting in the middle of the 
floor with his mind fogged to the point of not being able to care 
about his life, other than the need to get high again.  Robbing houses 
to steal anything worth $50 so he can get his fix.  I don't know if 
it's an accurate portrayal of any drug users, but it's what I think 
of.  I don't want anything like that for my kids.

I am against experimentation with drugs.  As with marijuana and 
tobacco, he knows now I am against him using such things.  When he 
gets older, I'll go into more depth and establish rules and all that.

I don't think I'll close the boys out of my life, no matter what they 
do.  I don't think I'll run a "my way or the highway" home.  I'll 
always be here to do what I can for them, the best I can do, whatever 
that is.

If they need a ride because they can't drive, they can call me, even 
if it's 2:00 a.m.  Even if they did something I don't approve of.  But 
then, I think, they'll owe me some time the next day or so in order to 
explain what happened and for me to lecture a bit.  (I'm a dad.  Dads 
lecture, a bit.)

If I could make all the recreational drugs, marijuana and tobacco 
disappear by waving my hand, anyone opposed had better jump fast to 
sit on my hand, because it'll be positioning itself in "wave" 
formation.  If alcohol were to disappear, too, I'd probably be a 
little sorry, but I'd be waving almost as quickly and nearly as 
vigorously.  I don't get to make that decision for everyone, 
everywhere, so I'll just have to do what my parents did.  Do my best, 
and hope it works out for my children.


#12 of 41 by keesan on Fri Sep 12 01:34:11 2003:

I would like to outlaw the use of any drug that gets into the air in public
spaces including sidewalks - if people want to poison themselves in private
just charge them more health insurance.


#13 of 41 by jaklumen on Fri Sep 12 06:41:05 2003:

what do people think about the new anti-pot commercials?  Just for the 
discussions sake.

I haven't formed a firm decision yet.  I am for hemp-- mostly as an 
alternative pulp source for paper and whatnot.  Perhaps 
decriminalizing marijuana would make it so much easier for farmers to 
grow hemp because I can't imagine enforcement trying to tell the 
difference between a hemp plant and a marijuana plant.  One has the 
bud, the other doesn't.

Of course, germane to this discussion are the questions: "How does 
legalization of certain drugs, such as pot, work elsewhere?  What case 
examples do we see there?"


#14 of 41 by scg on Fri Sep 12 07:02:32 2003:

Living in an area where lots of people smoke pot quite openly (yeah, Bruce,
people smoke pot in Berkeley...), I've never observed it to cause any problems
for people other than the smokers themselves, and even then it's generally
appeared to be loss of motivation more than anything else.  I've also noticed
passive smoke to not be nearly the problem from pot smokers that it is from
tobacco smokers.  I think this is because smoking pot just doesn't produce
as much smoke.


#15 of 41 by slynne on Fri Sep 12 11:38:04 2003:

There are all kinds of problems with pot. There is a second hand smoke 
issue for sure. I cant imagine that it is good for one's health to 
smoke it. I dont smoke pot too often because I have noticed that it 
makes me think more slowly for a day or so after I use it. 

Making pot legal doesnt necessarily mean that society has to allow 
smoking in public. One can still prohibit the use of marijuana while 
driving. 

resp:13 - I am not sure what marijuana commercials you mean. can you 
describe them?


#16 of 41 by other on Fri Sep 12 12:45:32 2003:

You probably have to be high to appreciate them.


#17 of 41 by slynne on Fri Sep 12 13:05:24 2003:

YOu have to be stupid to appreciate them?


#18 of 41 by mynxcat on Fri Sep 12 14:03:37 2003:

As for the commercials, and I mentioned this in the other item, the first two
commercials irritated me rather than got me thinking (one was a pregnant teen
whose judgement had been impaired, the other was an accident cause by delayed
reflexes due to pot). All I thought when I saw these was "Hey, alcohol does
the same thing. Stop being hypocrites, if you're really concerned about these
issues, you should be working on making alcohol illegal)

The latest commercial, and it seems to be the most successful, it seems to
have been running for a long long time) hit the message home more effectively.
It's aboput a boy describing his brother who smoked pot and how he never got
into trouble or did anything, and ends with how he never did anything at all.
And I think that's the message that they should be working on sending. Instead
of making pot illegal, people should be made aware of the effects of prolonged
usage, or relying on these drugs to get away from their problems


#19 of 41 by gull on Fri Sep 12 14:06:34 2003:

The one I remember best involves some kids smoking pot in a dad's study.
 They laugh and joke around, then one of them says, "Hey, you want to
see something cool?"  He pulls a gun out of one of the drawers and
shoots the other kid with it.  The message is supposed to be that pot
affects your judgement.

I guess I have two problems with that commercial.  One is that it
logically works just as well as a gun control commercial.  The other is
that it would apply equally well to alcohol.

Overall I don't think these commercials will be effective.  They're too
over the top, too "reefer madness."  I think they do more damage than
good.  Kids have a way of finding out when they're being fed a line, and
if they find out that a lot of what they've been told by adults about
drugs is exaggerated, they're not going to believe genuine information
they're given, either.


Re #18 (which slipped in):  Yeah, I agree.  The problem is that message
doesn't mesh well with the absolutist "Just Say No" message the
government has been trying to push for years.  They've staked a lot of
their credibility on the message that while alcohol can be used
responsibly in moderation, it's impossible for pot and other drugs to be
used that way.


#20 of 41 by flem on Fri Sep 12 14:49:31 2003:

There's a billboard up in Briarwood mall now which says something along the
lines of: "Lungs:  not available in stores.  [fine print] What are you willing
to give up to smoke marijuana?"  I wanted to take a marker and cross out the
last word. 


#21 of 41 by mynxcat on Fri Sep 12 15:06:32 2003:

Exactly. If they are passing on message like that, they should be targetting
the tobacco and alcohol market first. They're just coming across as hypocrites
IMO


#22 of 41 by gull on Fri Sep 12 15:15:18 2003:

It's not like there's been any shortage of anti-tobacco ads; they're just
not funded by the government, most of the time.


#23 of 41 by mynxcat on Fri Sep 12 15:18:07 2003:

There should be more of them, and there need to be a lot more anti-alcohol
ads besides just the "don't drink and drive" sponsored by MADD


#24 of 41 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 16:41:08 2003:

the anti pot commercial fave of mine is:

there's a burger joint and in the car at the
ordering station are some young african american
(you know, irresponsible negro stereotype gangbangers)
getting silly and horfing on a *dooby*.

the scene replays over a number of times before
shazaam!  they hit a girl on her bike 
(AN INNOCENT WHITE GIRL!) as they're pulling away in a
beefy burger pot haze.

i cracked some people up (my wife included) when i yelled
at the screen "There wouldn't have been a problem if she'd
been in the car getting stoned!" when the commercial was showing
before whatever hollywood crap was about to come on.


the drug war is largely about race, it always has been.

love
    happy "rev. al motherfuckin sharpton" boy-ee


#25 of 41 by other on Fri Sep 12 17:21:03 2003:

Al Sharpton.  The name alone is a comedy routine.


#26 of 41 by scg on Fri Sep 12 17:34:30 2003:

When I moved to California a bit more than three years ago, there were lots
of radio commercials attacking tobacco smoking on the grounds that the tobacco
companies were evil (marketing to children, and all sorts of other things),
and that when you smoke you're supporting to tobacco companies.  The
commercials all ended with the tagline, "this message brought to you by the
tobacco tax."


#27 of 41 by keesan on Fri Sep 12 17:34:59 2003:

The government has less incentive to stop the use of tobacco and alcohol than
the illegal drugs because it can tax the former.


#28 of 41 by dah on Fri Sep 12 18:07:04 2003:

Just legalise them all and have fun as far as I could care what a care.


#29 of 41 by gull on Fri Sep 12 18:38:39 2003:

It will be interesting to see what happens if Canada decriminalizes
marijuana.  If they do, and chaos doesn't ensue, it'll become harder to
argue against it here.  I think that's a major reason the U.S.
government has been leaning so hard on them not to do it.


#30 of 41 by rcurl on Fri Sep 12 18:45:46 2003:

Regardless of whether it is tobacco or pot, I think *smoking* is a health
hazard - inhaling smoke from burning vegetation is still toxic. I think
that even if pot were legalized, there should still be a "anti smoking"
campaign and laws. 


#31 of 41 by lynne on Fri Sep 12 21:18:37 2003:

re 30:  Fine by me.  Seems like anti-pot commercials are keying on the "it
makes you stupid" belief.  I'd accept pot being illegal if they made being
stupid illegal too.  


#32 of 41 by slynne on Sat Sep 13 02:56:46 2003:

re#30 - YES! There are lots of truthful bad things to say about pot. 
There is not need to lie in advertising. One of my favorites is a young 
couple in a doctors office being told they cant have children. Then, 
the ad says that smoking marijuana decreases sperm count. What they 
dont say is that the sperm count effect is temporary and that it doesnt 
really lower it enough to keep people from having kids. In the back of 
my head, I always wondered if any babies were conceived because some 
dumbass saw that commercial and thought pot would make good birth 
control. 


#33 of 41 by dah on Sat Sep 13 04:15:18 2003:

"we're running this campaign to prevent stupidity caused by marihuana.  people
so afflicted are our target market."

"you sure know your market, don't you?"

AHAHAHAHA


#34 of 41 by md on Sat Sep 13 13:33:28 2003:

Old NatLamp news item:  "Disproving the myth that LSD causes genetic 
damage, Grace Slick has given birth to a healthy seven-pound 
wirehaired terrier."


#35 of 41 by happyboy on Sun Sep 14 00:00:55 2003:

/passes md a mello phat doobie.


#36 of 41 by tsty on Tue Sep 16 05:41:02 2003:

darwin lives ... and this is a surprise?


#37 of 41 by i on Wed Sep 17 01:39:43 2003:

From alcoholism to international crime, recreational drugs sure do cause
a huge load of problems.  Spending $Billions$ per year for decades trying
to fight the problem hasn't done much good, either.  (Being a knee-jerk
issue for politicians to posture on doesn't count as "doing good" any 
more than enriching drug lords does.)

If it's legal and big business is behind it, we get loads of advertising
aimed at getting more people hooked on it.

Let's start by making alcohol, tobacco, and similar (quite popular and
not notably nastier than booze or smokes) drugs a goverment monopoly.
Set prices to discourage use somewhat, but too low to make illicit stuff
very profitable.  Minimal "this stuff isn't very healthy" non-advertising
and quality/packaging/spin to make the stuff about as convenient & cool
as generic Preparation H.

This will outrage the upscale/premium/luxury market of course.  So let
them make & sell their fancy beers/wines/smokes/etc. if they're 1) very
small scale, 2) substantially pricier than government-standard stuff, 3)
living within a tight set of regulations on quality, advertising, local
control, buyer age, etc., and 4) paying a substantial tax. 

Not sure what to do about the nastier stuff.  Given all the problems the
users & their supply chain cause, it's tempting to say "all the stuff you
can do is *free*...inside a sex-segregated government facility that you 
aren't ever allowed to leave".  


#38 of 41 by oval on Thu Sep 18 16:43:12 2003:

things work so well in amsterdam not simply because pot, hash, and mushrooms
are legal. people generally have a more tolerant view on the issues and do
not marginalize or look down upon drug users or drug/alcohol addicts. heroine
addicts are treated for their addiction as a health issue. people don't walk
around preaching or feeling guilt about their actions. everyone's responsible
for their own decisions, and help is there if needed. i actually smoke way
less pot here than i ever did in the states. the tourists smoke more than
anyone, arriving here and diving heaed first into this taboo that has been
kept from them in thier own country. it's sad, really. in my life i have known
maybe 1 or 2 people who i consider to be over-doing it with pot. they've built
up such a tolerance that they continually smoke all day and are still
productive. but they eventually end up getting all hyper and paranoid, but
quitting for a few days/weeks can stop this - as when they smoke again it will
hit them pretty hard. also pot used to be the only thing that remedied my
migranes after trying all sorts of medications etc.

alcohol is a much bigger problem, but i don't think it should be illegal.

people should be free without the state telling them how to live their lives.

it's much easier to make clear decisions if you don't have the fear of
punishment or guilt, or rebellion (in the case of younger people).



#39 of 41 by happyboy on Thu Sep 18 17:45:20 2003:

did anyone hear how the vote on the 
"pot initiative" went out here in
seattle?   


#40 of 41 by tod on Thu Sep 18 18:00:56 2003:

This response has been erased.



#41 of 41 by tod on Thu Sep 18 18:03:31 2003:

This response has been erased.



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