Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 206: The law so secret, you don't even know when it's been used.

Entered by gull on Tue Sep 9 13:54:24 2003:

The Washington Post had a "two years later" article on the Patriot Act,
yesterday:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40110-2003Sep7.html

Much of the article talks about the self-cloaking features of the act:

 'Yet the paradox of this debate is that it is playing out in a
 near-total information vacuum: By its very terms, the Patriot Act
 hides information about how its most contentious aspects are used,
 allowing investigations to be authorized and conducted under
 greater secrecy.

 'As a result, critics ranging from the liberal American Civil
 Liberties Union to the conservative Eagle Forum complain that
 the law is violating people's rights but acknowledge that they
 cannot cite specific instances of abuse.

 '"The problem is, we don't know how [the law] has been used,"
 said David Cole, a Georgetown University law professor who
 has represented terror suspects in cases in which
 the government has employed secret evidence. "They set it up
 in such a way . . . [that] it's very hard to judge." '

Even basic statistics are considered off limits:

 'As for how many times the government has used the law's powers
 to enter a library, a senior Justice official said, "Whether it
 is one or 100 or zero, it is classified."'

Meanwhile, people are running afoul of secret blacklists, with no way to
clear their names or find out why they're listed:

 'Massachusetts state Rep. Kay Khan (D) learned about the use
 of the Patriot Act in her case after repeatedly asking why a
 $300 wire transfer had not reached her brother. She discovered
 that her husband's name was on a special list at their bank
 because it may have been used by someone else as an alias.
 "So we are on some list, which is scary," she said. "I just
 feel that it's intrusive."'

Some groups, on both the left and the right, are attempting to introduce
legislation to put limits on the PATRIOT Act powers.  But Ashcroft is
attempting to get even more far-reaching powers:

 'Yet the source familiar with the department's work said
 Ashcroft's aides have been drafting three proposed expansions
 of Justice Department authority. They would like to make it
 easier to charge someone with material support for terrorism,
 to issue subpoenas without court approval and to hold people
 charged with terrorism prior to trial.

 'In the same vein, the Senate Judiciary Committee has been
 working on a bill, largely devoted to fighting drug trafficking,
 that in some drafts contains a few extra powers that Justice
 wants. Committee aides said they are unsure whether the
 chairman, Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), will introduce the
 bill or what it will contain.'
11 responses total.

#1 of 11 by gelinas on Tue Sep 9 17:49:42 2003:

I saw yesterday that Tom Clancy has a new book out, about terrorists and
drug-traffickers working together to make more money.  I guess I should
read it, to see what Ashcroft and company are up to now, and what they
will try next.


#2 of 11 by scott on Tue Sep 9 19:13:04 2003:

Heh.  Tom Clancy?  I used to like him, then I figured how his formula and it
became incredibly pointless.  Nowadays I chuckle about his characters, though.
One book where Jack Ryan starts drinking too much, and apparently the worst
thing about the situation was that he was drinking CHEAP wine.


#3 of 11 by lynne on Wed Sep 10 22:35:27 2003:

Guh.  Tom Clancy gets worse and worse.  He's clearly figured out that he
doesn't have to produce good books anymore.


#4 of 11 by jep on Thu Sep 11 01:50:17 2003:

I've heard Tom Clancy doesn't even write much any more.  "His" books 
are written by teams of writers.

I've read most of his Jack Ryan nvoels.  I'll probably read this latest
one, if I find it somewhere in paperback, or if I come across it in the
library.  His earlier works, such as "The Hunt For Red October", are fully
as bad as the later ones, such as "The Bear and the Dragon".  In the
middle are some very interesting books.  I really enjoyed "Patriot Games"
in particular, and also the one where he first becomes president.


#5 of 11 by gelinas on Thu Sep 11 04:34:54 2003:

My point was that President Bush and company seem to be using Mr. Clancy's
Jack Ryan books as blueprints for how they should govern.


#6 of 11 by pvn on Thu Sep 11 06:10:47 2003:

Well then that would be a step up from the previous administration
wouldn't it - who seemed to base thiers on _Love Story_ .


#7 of 11 by sj2 on Thu Sep 11 09:11:48 2003:

Heyyy!! I liked "Hunt for the Red October" :))

It is obviously difficult to protect civil liberties in the face of 
terror attacks. People are quick to lap up the idea that giving more 
power to law enforcement and government agencies will help them fight 
terrorism more effectively. 

Does it actually work?? I suppose time will tell. 

IMHO, anything that lacks transparency is likely to be abused sooner 
or later. Remember, absolute power corrupts!!


#8 of 11 by other on Thu Sep 11 13:31:48 2003:

I heard a story recently (radio?) about the extent to which liberties 
have always been truncated in times of war being utterly dwarfed by the 
efforts and practices of the current administration.


#9 of 11 by gull on Thu Sep 11 13:33:16 2003:

I'm not sure I buy that.  We haven't put anyone in internment camps,
this time.  (Though there are some stories coming out about
middle-eastern immigrants who have been contacted by the FBI and given a
choice between becoming informants, or being deported.)


#10 of 11 by other on Thu Sep 11 13:40:56 2003:

You're confusing the extent of de-liberation of a few with the extent of 
de-liberation of the entire population.



#11 of 11 by gull on Thu Sep 11 14:02:32 2003:

Hmm.  I see your point.

Something related, that was in the Slate "today's papers" column today:

'The New York Times, with a two-column headline, leads with President
Bush urging Congress to "untie the hands of our law-enforcement
officials" and remove "unreasonable obstacles" to investigating and
prosecuting terrorism. Specifically, he proposed 1) allowing feds to
snoop on suspected terrorists with investigators' own in-house subpoenas
instead of a court order; 2) changing the burden of proof on the bail of
suspected terrorists or their helpers from the government to defendants.
The Los Angeles Times lead, citing unnamed feds, says al-Qaida has a
"largely invisible but extensive presence" in the U.S. and that
investigators are "only now" realizing the full extent of the network,
most of which is apparently focused on fundraising. The piece adds that
investigators still only have a general idea of the domestic network.
"That's what people don't get," said one agent. "They think we know the
names of all the terrorists and we don't." USA Today's lead plays off
that, saying the FBI has decided that it's all but impossible to plant
undercover agents in the tight-knit al-Qaida. (The CIA didn't comment.)
The Washington Post leads with a Senate vote yesterday blocking the
White House from revamping overtime rules.

'Bush, speaking at the FBI's training HQ in Virginia on the eve of the
second anniversary of 9/11, argued that investigators in health-care
fraud cases already have the power to issue their own subpoenas and
don't need the court's permission to poke around. "If we can use these
subpoenas to catch crooked doctors," said the president, "Congress
should allow law enforcement officials to use them in catching
terrorists." The papers all include press-release quotes from the ACLU,
which, shockingly, is opposed to the proposals. But what the reporters
don't do is pick up the phone and examine the substance of Bush's
claims: Is there an unfair playing field for terror investigators?

'In any case, as the papers note, with the original Patriot Act under
increasing heat, Congress is unlikely to jump for the new proposals. So,
why would Bush push for the new laws? According to one Republican
strategist quoted in the NYT's lead, "Bush is betting that he will
either get the powers or get an issue he can use to club his Democratic
opponent."'


There are no more items selected.

You have several choices: