Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 184: The Detroit Tigers watch

Entered by albaugh on Thu Aug 28 19:07:41 2003:

The 1962 Mets had a record of 40 wins and 120 losses, a winning percentage
of exactly .250 .  Given the modern schedule of 162 games, that means that
2 of their rainouts were not made up.  That is the worst major league baseball
record of all time.  The Mets were an expansion team.

Unfortunately, for fans in Detroit & Michigan, the Tigers have a legitimate
chance of breaking that "anti-record".  And they don't have the excuse of
being an expansion team - just a poorly managed franchise top-to-bottom, for
a decade.

This item is for the morbid curiosity of seeing if they'll do it or not.

BTW, if the Tigers play all their 162 games, they really need to win 43 games
to avoid being linked with the '62 Mets.  That's because they would then only
lose a maximum of 119 games.  It's true that if they go 42-120 they would be
better, percentage wise, than those Mets, but still.

Link this to sports, if you like.
116 responses total.

#1 of 116 by albaugh on Thu Aug 28 19:09:48 2003:

After their 9-7 loss to the Indians last night (Wed Aug 27), the Tigers are
now 33-98.  They need to win 10 out of their last 31 games to avoid the
anti-record.  That is ~.333 winning clip which they haven't performed at all
season.

P.S. The watch could extend beyond when summer agora gets rolled.


#2 of 116 by tpryan on Thu Aug 28 20:24:28 2003:

        If you want to see the tigers winning, I could be talked into
selling my only copies of TV broadcasts of the 1984 World Series.


#3 of 116 by carson on Fri Aug 29 00:37:32 2003:

(Kevin should be aware of the 1899 Cleveland Spiders, who set the record
for major league baseball futility by finishing with a record of 20 wins,
134 losses.  of note is that Cy Young once played for the franchise; he
won more games during the 1899 season than the Spiders did.)

(why were the Spiders so bad that year?  their owner bought the St. Louis
franchise and sent all the talent there, figuring that he'd make more
money in STL than CLE.  thus, the Spiders were forced to make-do with
minor leaguers and journeymen.  it's entirely possible that the Spiders
would have been even worse the following year, had they not fallen victim
to league contractions that cut the number of teams from 12 to 8.)

(it's true that the 1962 Mets were probably the worst baseball team in the
modern era, and they were part of an era of embarrassment that lasted at
least four years.  however, it's the Spiders that own the "worst major
league baseball record of all time."  the Tigers aren't going to break it
this season.) 



#4 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Aug 29 01:04:31 2003:

OK, make it one of those "asterisk" things, and confine it to the 162 game
schedule.  :-)


#5 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Aug 29 14:17:30 2003:

The Tigers lost last night (Thu Aug 28) at Cleveland, 8-3.  Their record is
now 33-99, and will of course be losing 100+ games, the sign of "stench" in
a team / organization.  What's worse, is that there is an exceptionally high
probability that they are about to set a new "record" for being the first team
to lose 100 games before September.  :-(


#6 of 116 by krj on Fri Aug 29 16:01:47 2003:

From what I have read, the 1962 Mets also lost 100 games before September.


#7 of 116 by carson on Fri Aug 29 16:04:39 2003:

(actually, the 1962 Mets lost their 100th game on August 29th, en route
to closing off their season with just one win in 41 games.  the Tigers
aren't even going to be the quickest to 100 losses:  the 1916 Philadelphia
A's only needed 130 games to reach the 100-loss mark.  alas, with the
shorter season, they didn't reach it until September 6th.)


#8 of 116 by carson on Fri Aug 29 16:05:18 2003:

(Ken slipped in, yet fit seamlessly.)


#9 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Aug 29 17:17:48 2003:

The "first to lose 100 before Sept." notion came from WJR.  They might 
have been referring to the American League...


#10 of 116 by carson on Sat Aug 30 16:05:36 2003:

([I've been informed that the '99 Cleveland Spiders lost their 100th
game on September 1st, 1899.  they were in the National League, so it
looks as if there's still an American League record to be broken.  the AL
didn't come into existence until after the turn of the century.)


#11 of 116 by albaugh on Sat Aug 30 19:26:46 2003:

Last night (Fri Aug 29) the Tigers doubled up the Chisox 8-4 at the COPA,
moving their record to 34-99, 9 wins away from "safety".


#12 of 116 by carson on Sun Aug 31 03:06:59 2003:

View "hidden" response.



#13 of 116 by carson on Sun Aug 31 03:24:38 2003:

(so the Tigers lost their 100th game tonight, making them the earliest AL
team to 100 losses ever.  they're also the second team to lose 100 games
before September, joining the aforementioned 1962 New York Mets.)

(on the plus side, I've noticed that the local sportscasters don't even
bother with asking the Tigers why they lose after each game.  in fact, I
remember one newscast where the sports guy really talked them up, focusing
on the home runs and double plays before closing with "but they lost 
anyway.")


#14 of 116 by albaugh on Sun Aug 31 18:18:18 2003:

Yep, they now have the same record as the hapless Mets after 134 games:
34 wins, 100 losses.  Need to go at least 9-19 the rest of the way...


#15 of 116 by jep on Mon Sep 1 03:01:29 2003:

This item is #184 in the Summer 2003 Agora, and #124 in sports.


#16 of 116 by jep on Mon Sep 1 03:09:40 2003:

I have been dreading the 120 game loss record since May.  I kept 
expecting they'd have a winning streak, but it hasn't happened.  I 
don't believe it will happen now.

The Tigers have a few abysmal records they can set:
* 120 losses is the most in modern baseball, as mentioned
* 40 wins is the least in modern baseball
& The .250 winning percentage of the Mets is another mark to avoid

The Cleveland Spiders were not part of "modern baseball".  That began 
in 1901 when the American League was started.  This is why the 1962 
Mets are cited in newspaper articles about "worst teams ever", and the 
Spiders are occasionally mentioned as a footnote.

I think 120 losses is inevitable for this team at this point.  There 
is no hope for anyone in the organization to lead the team to 9 more 
victories.  They've all quite justifiably given up on the season.


#17 of 116 by albaugh on Tue Sep 2 04:12:52 2003:

The Tigers lost twice again this holiday weekend, 8-4 Sunday to the Chisox,
7-4 today to the Tribe (both at the COPA).  With their now 34-102 record, the
Freep says that they will join the Philly A's as the only teams to have
clinched last place in their division as early as Sept. 1.  Based on their
record so far this season, I don't see how they can achieve 9-19...


#18 of 116 by gelinas on Tue Sep 2 04:32:26 2003:

I'm kind of hoping they'll set all of those records: less than forty wins,
more than 120 losses, and worse than .250.  That way, they'll have it all
behind them, with no where to go but up.


#19 of 116 by albaugh on Tue Sep 2 04:54:07 2003:

Dunno - we've been thinking for years that it couldn't get any worse!  :-)


#20 of 116 by carson on Tue Sep 2 15:52:09 2003:

(I agree with #18 and #19.)


#21 of 116 by jep on Tue Sep 2 15:58:37 2003:

The Tigers have to play 28 games in September.  As far as I know, none 
are postponements which won't be made up.

Their remaining games are against:
Sep 2-4 Cleveland (next worst team in the AL Central)
Sep 5-7 at Toronto (68-69; middle of the pack and out of contention
                    in the AL East)
Sep 9-11 at New York (best record in the AL)
Sep 12-14 Kansas City (still contending for the division)
Sep 16-18 Toronto
Sep 19-21 at Minnesota (still contending for the division)
Sep 22-24 at Kansas City
Sep 25-28 Minnesota

So most of the teams we'll be playing have a reason to want to play 
well.  The Tigers don't really care, and haven't for a long time, aside 
from a few guys like Dmitri Young and Bobby Higginson, who don't like 
to quit, and some of the young guys who can play for next year or even 
hope to get traded.

In my estimation, the Tigers are likely to win maybe 2-3 more games 
this year.  Three wins leaves them with a record of 37-125.  I consider 
the 120 loss season to be pretty well clinched at this point.

I *hate* the idea of the Tigers having these records for horrid 
baseball.  My earliest memories of baseball are Al Kaline, Norm Cash 
and Mickey Lolich winning the 1968 World Series.  I'm afraid my son's 
are going to be of this year.


#22 of 116 by krj on Tue Sep 2 22:16:28 2003:

Is there any reason to expect much improvement for the 2004 season?
It would probably be hard to get to 120 losses again, but 100 losses
would seem to be well within grasp.  :/


#23 of 116 by jep on Wed Sep 3 02:08:03 2003:

The Tigers need better players.  They don't have them inside the 
system, for sure, with maybe one or two exceptions, so if they're to 
improve for next year, they need to bring in good free agents.

They've dumped (or certainly will dump) $17 million in salaries this 
year; Damion Easley, Dean Palmer, Shane Halter and Craig Paquette.  
The hope would come from the possibility that Mike Ilitch will use 
some of that money to improve the ball club.

$17 million could bring a fair amount of improvement.  Look a year 
down the road, dump Bobby Higginson's $12 million salary, and a total 
of $29 million could bring a *lot* of improvement.  Baseball salaries 
are depressed right now.  You don't need to pay $25 million per year 
(Alex Rodriguez money) to bring in a star.

Even so, it might be a vain hope.  Ilitch invested a ton of his own 
money to build Comerica Park, and his investment has not paid off in 
attendance.  He's losing money, but doesn't say how much he's losing.

The reason for the lack of attendance is lack of a quality ball team.  
This team was, I believe, 2nd in total wins for the first 90 years of 
it's existence.  Detroiters are used to winning, or were 15 years 
ago.  And they *support* their winning baseball teams.  The 1984-87 
Tigers set records for attendance in baseball.

When he bought the Red Wings, Ilitch didn't start paying for salary 
until they showed signs of becoming a good team.  Obviously the Tigers 
are not showing such signs.

Still, the hope exists that he'll get some better players.  Ilitch is 
a former Tiger minor league ballplayer, and the belief exists that he 
loves baseball more than hockey.  Also, he might be getting 
embarrassed enough to do something.  Baseball is not hockey; he's not 
going to bring in surprise foreign player as he did in hockey and turn 
the franchise into a world-beater.

I think we'll see maybe a 70 win team next year.  It'll seem like a 
huge improvement; it'll *be* a huge improvement.  But 70 win teams are 
still in last place in baseball.

I'm looking ahead to 2006.  Building a baseball team takes time.  We 
could be watching a 90 game winner by then.  Or not; so far Ilitch has 
not achieved a winner in Detroit and so there's really no reason to 
assume he ever will.


#24 of 116 by albaugh on Wed Sep 3 20:24:54 2003:

The Tigers beat Cleveland 8-6 last night (Tue Sept 2) at the COPA.  Their
record is now 35-102.  Before that game, I was thinking they would go 6-20
the rest of the way, to finish up 40-122, setting the loss anti-record.
What's *your* prediction?


#25 of 116 by jep on Thu Sep 4 02:32:56 2003:

I expect them to finish with 125 losses, so if they play all their 
games, that's 37-125.

They won again tonight, in 12 innings, on a home run by Shane Halter.  
6-5.  So they're 36-102.  I wrote the 125 game prediction before I 
looked at the score for tonight's game, but I'm going to stick with it.


#26 of 116 by albaugh on Thu Sep 4 17:04:57 2003:

Only 7 wins away now from "safety", with 24 games in which to accomplish that.


#27 of 116 by jep on Thu Sep 4 22:45:45 2003:

They won again today.  Hey, three in a row!  It's looking possible 
they'll win 40 games (they're at 37 now), and maybe even 43 -- the 
number they'd have to win to avoid the 1962 Mets' record of 120 losses.


#28 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Sep 5 18:19:36 2003:

Yes, though they did try to give away the game with a 2-base error with 2 outs
in the 9th, they hung on for the win.  They start a 3-game series in Toronto
this weekend.  At 37-102, it looks like going at least 6-17 the rest of the
way is feasible, which would be fine with me.

Keep in mind that being regarded "the worst" is something you don't want. 
Notice how everyone mentions the '62 Mets, not the 2nd or 3rd worst teams,
whoever they might be.


#29 of 116 by albaugh on Mon Sep 8 16:43:48 2003:

Just when you thought there was "hope", the Tigers lost all 3 at Toronto over
the weekend:  8-6, 1-0 (10), 8-0.  That makes 'em 37-105 with 20 games to go.
That's 6 series, where they'll need to average 1 win per series for "safety".

Meanwhile, some coincidental humor:
http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/arlonjanis/archive/arlonjanis-20030906.ht
ml


#30 of 116 by tod on Mon Sep 8 16:48:31 2003:

This response has been erased.



#31 of 116 by janc on Wed Sep 10 04:15:37 2003:

No relation.


#32 of 116 by carson on Wed Sep 10 05:49:35 2003:

(son and dad, unless you meant "no relation to the comic strip.")  ;)



#33 of 116 by bruin on Wed Sep 10 13:30:00 2003:

In the "Arlo & Janis" comic strip, Arlo and Janis are husband and wife.


#34 of 116 by albaugh on Wed Sep 10 16:50:36 2003:

The Tigers lost 4-2 to the Yankees last night in NYC (Tue Sept 9).
That makes 'em 37-106 with 19 games to go.


#35 of 116 by krj on Wed Sep 10 22:59:16 2003:

Heh, the NY Times had interesting coverage, both of the game and of the 
Tigers.  The Tigers reportedly kept the game in doubt until very late,
which doesn't make division-leading New York look good in a close pennant
race.  We can call it a moral victory for Detroit.  :)


#36 of 116 by albaugh on Thu Sep 11 16:41:28 2003:

Last night (Wed Sep 10) the Yankees slaughtered the Tigers 15-5.
That makes 'em 37-107 with 18 games to go.  Winning 6 of those games, mostly
against teams in contention for the playoffs, makes reaching "safety" more
and more unlikely.  The Tigers happen to be in NYC one more day, 9/11.


#37 of 116 by tod on Fri Sep 12 04:39:15 2003:

This response has been erased.



#38 of 116 by aruba on Fri Sep 12 16:06:09 2003:

The Tigers have now clinched the worst record among all Major League teams.
THey are 22 games behind the second-worst team, Tampa Bay.


#39 of 116 by aruba on Fri Sep 12 16:11:32 2003:

They have 5 series left, against KC, Toronto, Minn, KC, Minn.  All teams
over .500.  KC and Minn are still trying to win the AL Central, but Toronto
has been all but mathematically eliminated.  So maybe Toronto is our best
shot.


#40 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Sep 12 17:28:28 2003:

The Tigers had the decency not to disrupt the 911 observances in NY last
night, losing 5-2 to the Yankees.  That makes 'em 37-108 with 17 games to go.


#41 of 116 by jep on Sat Sep 13 02:40:20 2003:

They won tonight, though.  20 game loser Mike Maroth shut out the 
surprising Kansas City Royals, and the Tigers won #38, 3-0.

Come on, guys... 5 more wins...


#42 of 116 by fitz on Sat Sep 13 15:49:00 2003:

I saw several games on Wednesday nights.  It's a shame that they always lost,
because I never saw anything recklessly stupid done.  It was good baseball
and I enjoyed watching it, regardless of the outcome.

By the way, did SprotsCenter show a clip of a triple-play this summer?  I
missed it, if they did.  Or maybe there wasn't one anywhere?


#43 of 116 by albaugh on Sat Sep 13 16:43:14 2003:

That makes 'em 38-108 with 16 games to go.


#44 of 116 by gelinas on Sat Sep 13 21:27:11 2003:

Yes, there was a triple-play this summer, unassisted even, but I did not
see a clip.  I finally tracked down a description some where on the web:

Runners on first and second, who start at the crack of the bat.  Shortstop
catches the fly and steps on second to double the runner headed for third,
then chases down the runner trying to get back to first.  (This was
something like the 12th unassisted triple-play in the history of the game.)


#45 of 116 by albaugh on Sun Sep 14 04:43:34 2003:

The Tigers were up to their old tricks Sat. night, losing 7-0 to KC @ COPA.
That makes 'em 38-109 with 15 games to go.  I wonder if they are close to the
record for having been shut out the most times...


#46 of 116 by fitz on Sun Sep 14 21:06:44 2003:

Thanks, Joe.  For some reason knowing that it happened just makes me feel
better.  Probably the family is relieved that I didn't print copies of the
play and plaster the door, as I did when Wells pitched his perfect game.

[25-year old stepson:  "Is this good?"]


#47 of 116 by aruba on Sun Sep 14 22:12:46 2003:

Tigers lost again today, to break the team record for losses in a season. 
They're now 38-110.


#48 of 116 by albaugh on Mon Sep 15 16:59:36 2003:

With 14 games to go, they're still 5 wins away from "safety".


#49 of 116 by aruba on Mon Sep 15 22:35:01 2003:

If they can win 2, they won't, at least, have broken the record for fewest
wins (though they will have tied it).  If they can win 3, they will be safe
from having the worst win percentage ever.


#50 of 116 by gelinas on Tue Sep 16 03:09:13 2003:

It's the fewer-than-40-wins mark I've been pulling for. 


#51 of 116 by albaugh on Tue Sep 16 04:20:24 2003:

The Tigers got stomped 10-4 by KC Mon night (Sep 15).  That makes 'em 38-111,
just a hair over .250, with a lucky 13 games to go.  They are making it
increasingly tough on themselves to avoid 120 losses.

When this season began, I think we all felt it would be another stinker.  But
I know I had no conception of the Tigers being record-setting bad.  I mean,
they have almost no chance at all to win 50 games.  Having wins in only the
40's is humiliatingly putrid in the extreme.


#52 of 116 by albaugh on Wed Sep 17 03:31:41 2003:

Looks like the Tigers pitching managed to get shelled again tonight (Tue Sept
16), losing 9-6 to the visiting Blue Jays.  That makes 'em 38-112 with now
only 12 games to go.


#53 of 116 by gelinas on Wed Sep 17 04:46:38 2003:

So it's not _quite_ time to give up hope of a sub-40-win season. :/


#54 of 116 by aruba on Wed Sep 17 05:24:04 2003:

The Tigers were doing all right till the late innings tonight.  But the
score really shouldn't have been that close - Toronto played attrociously.


#55 of 116 by albaugh on Thu Sep 18 04:01:01 2003:

The Tigers got shut out again (!), tonight (Wed Sept 17) 6-0 at the talons
of the Toronto BLue Jays.  That makes 'em 38-113 with 11 games to go.
It looks certain now that they'll share at least some portion of the "worst
record" with the '62 Mets.

According to something in Sunday's Free Press / News Sports section, NY
Yankees manager Joe Torre told Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski that even though the
'62 Mets were an expansion team, their roster was full of established major
league players (obviously not the best ones).  Whereas the current Tiger
roster is largely "youngsters".  So the Tigers should not get overly
discouraged, and put themself down as low as the lowly Mets.

Sounds like a good rationalization to me...  ;-)


#56 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Sep 19 03:45:34 2003:

The Blue Jays provided another pounding tonight (Thu Sept 18) 10-6 over the
stripeless Tigers.  That makes 'em 38-114 with 10 games to go.  To reach
"safety" they would have to play .500 ball, which is twice their winning rate
this season.


#57 of 116 by gelinas on Fri Sep 19 04:45:59 2003:

(They are at .250 right now.)


#58 of 116 by aruba on Fri Sep 19 15:06:26 2003:

And 7 of the last 10 games are against Minnesota, which is leading the
division and has won 6 in a row. :(


#59 of 116 by tpryan on Fri Sep 19 21:12:10 2003:

        How soon before Minnesota clinches the division and all 
home field advantages?  That is, when can they cool their jets?


#60 of 116 by krj on Fri Sep 19 21:43:00 2003:

Minnesota only has a 3.5 game lead; they will be highly motivated
to crush the Tigers.

In newspaper stories today, Alan Trammell says the team has "run out
of gas."


#61 of 116 by aruba on Sat Sep 20 04:22:17 2003:

The Tigers lost again tonight.  They had a chance to tie it up in the
eigth, but Dmitri Young popped out with the bases loaded to end the inning.

They've now lost 7 in a row, and 13 of the last 14.  And their winning
percentage has dipped below .250.


#62 of 116 by tpryan on Sat Sep 20 22:06:45 2003:

re 60:
        Hey Alan, did they have gas to begin with?
(putting it short, I thing the problem is the players, not the staff).


#63 of 116 by aruba on Sun Sep 21 03:32:25 2003:

Tigers lost again today, taking them to 38 and 116.  Only one win in the
last 15 games. 



#64 of 116 by krj on Sun Sep 21 16:36:05 2003:

Something I've only seen mentioned once in the press:

In 2002, the Tigers fired Phil Garner early in the season and 
promoted Luis Pujols to be the caretaker manager for a doomed season.
Pujols had never managed before, but he brought in his veteran manager
friend Felipe Alou as bench coach.  It was, of course, a horrid season,
and Pujols and Alou were fired by the Tigers at the end of it.
(55-106, the 2002 record, doesn't sound so bad now, does it?)
 
Alou was hired as the manager of the San Francisco Giants, and he 
brought in Luis Pujols as a Giants coach.  The Giants have the National
League West title with a 14 game lead.
I imagine Alou and Pujols are relieved to be out of Detroit.


#65 of 116 by albaugh on Sun Sep 21 18:58:13 2003:

At 38-116 the Tigers would have to go 5-3 over the last 8 games to reach the
"safety" of 43 wings.  It's not going to happen.  They and their fans are
doomed to at least share some worst team records.  Even if they go a
respectable 3-5 they will set the record for most losses (121).


#66 of 116 by krj on Sun Sep 21 19:27:01 2003:

Tim Ryan in resp:59 :: One writer pointed out that you are right; 
by the final weekend's series with Detroit, the Twins are likely to 
have clinched the division title and might be in a mood to rest
their front-line players for the playoffs.  I'd forgotten that there
were two series left with Minnesota.



#67 of 116 by aruba on Sun Sep 21 22:50:23 2003:

Tigers lost again today.  That makes 9 in a row, 15 out of 16.  7 games to
go.  Minnesota needs two games to clinch, and they play two games at home
against Cleveland on Tuesday and Wednesday.  So they may indeed have
clinched by the time they come to Detroit on Thursday.

Meanwhile, Kansas City and Chicago are tied for second in the division, 5.5
games back of the Twins.  They're both out of the wildcard race.  We go to
KC next, for three games.  KC has won 7 of their last 10.


#68 of 116 by gelinas on Mon Sep 22 03:32:54 2003:

(Why do you think the Tigers could beat the Twins' second, or even third, rank
players?)


#69 of 116 by albaugh on Mon Sep 22 17:50:26 2003:

The Tigers are indeed 38-117 with 7 games to go.  They are the "lock of the
millennium" to tie / break the record for losses.


#70 of 116 by aruba on Tue Sep 23 03:38:09 2003:

Tigers lost again tonight.  They looked pretty good early on - sent 8 men to
the plate in the top of the 5th and tied the game at 4; but then they came
apart in the 6th, making at least 3 pitching changes in the inning.

So they've lost 10 in a row, 16 of the last 17.  6 games to go.


#71 of 116 by albaugh on Tue Sep 23 04:06:56 2003:

That makes 'em 38-118, an amazing, astounding *80* games under .500
Royals doubled 'em up, 12-6.  We're all doubled over in pain...  :-(


#72 of 116 by aruba on Tue Sep 23 13:17:51 2003:

That's 40 games under .500, if I understand baseball speak correctly.  The
number of games B is behind A is

  ((A's wins - B's wins) + (B's losses - A's losses)) / 2

So if you compared the Tigers to a team which had n wins and n losses, you'd
get

  ((n - 38) + (118 - n)) / 2 = 80/2 = 40.

But I'm just extrapolating from what I've seen in the newspaper, so I
could be wrong.


#73 of 116 by jep on Tue Sep 23 14:20:34 2003:

I understand they're charging $5 for Upper Deck Box and Reserved seats 
this weekend.

The Tigers are 1-93 this year when trailing after six innings.

The Tigers would be 40 games behind a .500 team (78-78) at this point, 
however they'd need to win 80 more games in order to get to .500, so 
they are 80 games below .500.



#74 of 116 by aruba on Tue Sep 23 15:20:50 2003:

I'm thinking of going to a game this weekend.  Anyone want to make a
Grexpedition of it?


#75 of 116 by albaugh on Tue Sep 23 16:22:38 2003:

Actually aruba, your "/ 2" logic is what I have thought it *should* be, since
it would represent the number of games they would have had to win instead of
losing that would take them to .500.  However, that is not how it is
interpreted in baseball tradition:  "# games under .500" is the number of
consecutive games the team would have to win to get back to .500.  I don't
like it, I think it "doubles" the "stat", but it's "the tradition".


#76 of 116 by tpryan on Tue Sep 23 18:17:22 2003:

        How many games are the Tigers behind the American League leader?


#77 of 116 by jep on Tue Sep 23 18:57:38 2003:

The Tigers are 29 1/2 games in back of Cleveland (67-90), #4 in their 
division.  They're 49 games back of Minnesota (87-69), their division 
leader.  If there were no divisions, they'd be 59 games in back of the 
Yankees (97-59) for the American League pennant.

Mark, I wouldn't mind going to the game, preferably on Sunday so I 
don't have to miss any college football games on TV.


#78 of 116 by albaugh on Wed Sep 24 03:52:40 2003:

The Tigers pounded out a month's (season's) worth of frustration on the
Royals, winning Tuesday night (Sept 23) 15-6.  They had gone ahead 7-2 in the
top of the 4th, then promptly gave up 4 runs to make it 7-6.  But they came
right back with 4 in the top of the 5th, and ended up scoring at least 1 run
in each of the first 7 innings, something they haven't done is many years.
Their previous high for runs this season had been 10.

So they're now 39-118 with 5 games left.  With 1 win they will at least avoid
setting the record for fewest wins.  It's still going to be hard to avoid
setting the anti-record for most losses.


#79 of 116 by gelinas on Wed Sep 24 04:22:40 2003:

It's going to be hard to avoid one more win, but I think the Tigers can do
it.


#80 of 116 by jep on Wed Sep 24 12:43:22 2003:

Let's put it this way; the Tigers just ended a 10 game losing streak.  
They have 5 left to play.  They can lose them all... and the odds are 
that they will.  I'm hoping for any win(s) they can get.  Every one is 
important to avoid a bad milestone:

1 win -- win #40, at least tie the Mets rather than "pass" them
2 wins -- win #41, winning percentage goes above .250
3 wins -- no worse than 120 losses
4 wins -- not the worst team ever, or even tied for worst ever
5 wins -- a year-ending 6 game winning streak would be a breath of
   fresh air


#81 of 116 by aruba on Wed Sep 24 14:09:02 2003:

Sunday's game is at 1:05 - let's do it.  Who else wants to go, besides jep
and me?  THose of us in Ann Arbor could carpool, and meet the rest of you at
the ballpark.


#82 of 116 by jep on Thu Sep 25 13:15:56 2003:

There are some good tickets left for $5.  I just did a search and could 
have bought 4 seats in section 325 (behind the plate, upper deck, 
middle row of the section) by ordering them on-line.  These are 
normally $20 tickets.  I sat there several times during the Tigers 
first season in Comerica.

There's a $3.25 surcharge per ticket for ordering tickets on-line.  It 
might be worthwhile.  They *could* sell out for the last game, though I 
think it's unlikely.  We'd surely get better tickets by buying in 
advance.

If we're going to meet up at the ballpark, we ought to pick a place and 
time so we can find each other.  Maybe the Tiger statue in front of the 
stadium would be a good place?  


#83 of 116 by aruba on Thu Sep 25 13:39:00 2003:

That sounds good.  I'll enter an item in the new Agora.

Tigers score 4 in the 1st inning last night, then hung on to win 4-3.  So
they won't become the first team not to win 40 games.  One more win and
they'll be above .250, and so avoid having the worst winning percentage of
all time.


#84 of 116 by aruba on Thu Sep 25 13:59:06 2003:

OK, I entered item 25 in the new agora to discuss a Grexpedition to
Comerica.


#85 of 116 by albaugh on Thu Sep 25 19:18:40 2003:

Yep, they're now 40-118 with 4 games left, all at home against Minnesota.


#86 of 116 by gelinas on Thu Sep 25 21:50:54 2003:

If they lose all four, they'll end up at .240.  Not as good as a sub-40 win
season, but they *are* the Tigers, after all.


#87 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Sep 26 02:25:52 2003:

BTW, those last 2 games in KC (Tue & Wed) were managed by stand in Larry
Parrish, a former manager of the Tigers, still with the organization.  
Alan Trammell was away due to the death of his mother.


#88 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Sep 26 02:33:24 2003:

Game summary from tonight (Thu Sept 25):

Tigers were down 1-0 in a pitching duel, heading into the bottom of the 7th.
With runners at 2nd & 3rd and one out, Bobby Higginson's ground ball tied the
game at 1.  With runners on 2nd & 3rd this time with 2 out, a double brought
them both in for a 3-1 lead, setting up a win for the Tigers starter.
But in the top of the 8th Matt Anderson continued what I consider to be the
swoon of his career, walking 2 of the 3 batters he faced, both of which
scored.  Reliever Rodney gave up a sac fly and a 2-run homer to give the Twins
back the lead 4-3.  In the bottom of the 8th, Craig Monroe's solo homer tied
the game at 4.  The game went into extra innings still tied, until Shane
Halter's 2-out "walk off" solo homer game the Tige's a 5-4 win.

So that makes 'em 41-118 with 3 games to go.  They have now assured themselves
not to tie for the fewest wins, and cannot have the worst winning percentage.
Who knows, it just might be possible for them to reach "safety" after all,
with 2 wins in the next 3 games.


#89 of 116 by jep on Fri Sep 26 02:36:45 2003:

Nope, they won tonight, in the 11th inning, on a 2 out home run by 
Shane Halter.  This is their 3rd win in a row, and it clinches a 
better winning percentage and more wins for the season than the 1962 
Mets.  I would say now that the Tigers will not be considered the 
worst team in the Modern Era.

A few years ago, Halter played every position on the field in a ball 
game.  (The manager at the time, whom I believe was Larry Parrish, 
would have put him in at DH as well, but didn't; it was just a mistake 
on his part.)

From this, and seeing him in occasional games, and hearing him in 
interviews, you might think Halter is a player to be reckoned with.  
In fact, he's a scrub; he wouldn't be playing for any other major 
league team and shouldn't be with the Tigers.  He won't be around next 
year and won't wind up with another major league team.  He's really 
pretty bad.

But... good for him.  I'm glad he had one good day.


#90 of 116 by albaugh on Fri Sep 26 02:43:17 2003:

Actually, that was his 2nd "walk off" (game winning & ending) home run this
month:  The first beat Cleveland.


#91 of 116 by albaugh on Sat Sep 27 04:13:11 2003:

The Tigers made a brave go of it Friday night (Sept 26), losing 5-4 in 11
innings.  They took a 2-0 lead in the first inning, and another lead 3-2 in
the 5th on a solo homer by Dmitri Young, after the Twins had tied it at 2.
The game went into the 10th tied at 3, and the Twins went ahead 4-3 on a 2-out
walk followed by a double.  But the Tigers tied the game at 4 in the bottom
of the 10th on a 1-out single by Shane Halter.  The Twins got the winning run
in the top of the 11th on a leadoff home run.

So that makes 'em 41-119 with 2 games to go.  They can still reach "safety"
if they win both.  Anything less means tying or setting the record for most
losses (which they already have the American League record for now).


#92 of 116 by jep on Sat Sep 27 14:22:57 2003:

It was exciting at the end of the game.  I was surprised to find that 
I expected them to win.  It's been a while since I felt that way.


#93 of 116 by happyboy on Sat Sep 27 21:03:10 2003:

the tigers are my favorite team again.


we...except for the mudhens who would
KICK THEIR ASS.


#94 of 116 by slynne on Sat Sep 27 23:53:58 2003:

I know. I might have to go watch this team next year. They prolly need 
someone to encourage them and let them know that it doesnt mean they 
are bad people if they lose. ;)


#95 of 116 by richard on Sun Sep 28 01:34:42 2003:

Tigers are losing 8-4 to Minnesota in the eighth, it appears they may tie the
record tonight and go for the record tomorrow


#96 of 116 by jep on Sun Sep 28 02:18:07 2003:

Nope, they're tied at the bottom of the 9th.  Come on, Tigers!


#97 of 116 by jep on Sun Sep 28 02:19:39 2003:

They did it!  They won!

They were down 8-0 in the 5th inning, and they came back against the 
Minnesota Twins and they won!


#98 of 116 by gelinas on Sun Sep 28 02:22:44 2003:

They can't even lose properly, can they? ;)


#99 of 116 by jep on Sun Sep 28 02:38:00 2003:

I think they did it just the way I wanted them to!


#100 of 116 by krj on Sun Sep 28 03:29:56 2003:

The winning run:  a walk, two stolen bases, and then a passed ball
on a strikeout allowed the runner at third to come home.


#101 of 116 by aruba on Sun Sep 28 03:37:54 2003:

Ack - I can't believe I game up on the game after 6 innings, and so I missed
the comeback.


#102 of 116 by jep on Sun Sep 28 12:23:32 2003:

I gave up on the game, too.  (-:  I was checking scores on football 
games on the WWW when I saw the Tigers were tied up.  I turned on the 
TV just after the game was over.


#103 of 116 by happyboy on Sun Sep 28 17:19:03 2003:

re94:

cups hands and yells like stuart smalley:

"IT'S OK NOT TO MAKE THE BIG SCORE YOU GUYS, WE STILL THINK
 YOU'RE GOOD PEOPLE!"


slynne is more entertaining at a 'hens game that muddy mudhen
is...


#104 of 116 by slynne on Sun Sep 28 17:24:31 2003:

It's all the cheap beer. ;)


#105 of 116 by happyboy on Sun Sep 28 17:28:31 2003:

...and the greasy slabs of mudhens pizza!


/munches on a mudhens corndawg


#106 of 116 by gelinas on Mon Sep 29 03:09:17 2003:

I saw an article in one of the Detroit papers which said that Mr. Illitch had
decided to get some good players, even if it did cost him some money.  I just
heard the same thing on WDIV's 11:00 news.  So may be some good did come out
of this season.


#107 of 116 by albaugh on Mon Sep 29 04:29:06 2003:

Sat. Sept. 27 the Tigers came back from an 8-1 deficit to win in the bottom
of the 9th 9-8.  That was the biggest deficit overcome since 1965.
That made 'em 42-119, with *still* a possibility to reach "safety" and avoid
all associations with the '62 Mets, by winning on Sunday.


#108 of 116 by albaugh on Mon Sep 29 04:33:07 2003:

Sunday September 28, the final day of the season, the Tigers used a 7-run 6th
(their biggest 1-inning outburst of the season) to gut out a 9-4 win over the
Twins, to cap off an improbable 5 wins in their last 6 games, against teams
much better in record than they.  That means that they do indeed avoid tying
the '62 Mets for most losses in a season, and fewest wins.

However, this was still a terrible team overall, winning at just above a .250
clip for the season.  They did set the American League record for most losses
in a season.  But since there was nothing to be gained by tying or breaking
the Mets anti-record, you can tip your cap to them for showing some grit in
the end.


#109 of 116 by jep on Mon Sep 29 14:19:16 2003:

The Terry Foster article Joe mentioned quotes Mike Ilitch as vowing to 
spend to improve the team:

http://www.detnews.com/2003/tigers/0309/29/a01-282569.htm

Some Ilitch  quotes:

"I am going to do what I feel is necessary to field a good team.  I am 
going to go out and sign free agents.  I am going to operate like other 
teams because I feel I have a foundation.  I understand our youth and 
it is not real complicated now.  We are going to fill the holes and see 
how it works. Everybody can pass judgment on it." 

"People kind of laughed at me, but they asked me what team do you want 
to pattern yourself after and I said Minnesota.  And they laughed and 
they roared.  But they drafted right and look where they are. 

"It boils down to assessing talent and hiring the best people.

"You are talking about the past, and I want to talk about the future.  
I don't know what good it does to talk about the past."

"I am telling you we are going out and getting ball players, and we are 
going to have a good team.  We are on our way up.  I cannot tell you we 
are going to have a championship caliber team (in 2004), but we will be 
a better team." 

"This is what major-league league sports is all about -- talent and 
leadership.  Alan can do a much better job if he's given talent.  He 
hasn't had a lot of talent to work with. We turned the kids over to 
him.  We knew we we're going to take a bit of a hit.  Of course, we 
didn't ever think it was going to be this severe." 


#110 of 116 by jep on Mon Sep 29 14:42:13 2003:

That article says many of the things I've been waiting to hear.  It 
appears to acknowledge that there is not enough talent within the 
Tigers organization to compete; that the only near-term solution is to 
go to the free agent market; and that Mike Ilitch is committed to 
making the Tigers into a winner.

Now that he's said it, he just has to do it, and Dave Dombrowski, the 
general manager, has to spend the money wisely.  We can't have more $10 
million per year Bobby Higginsons and $8 million per year Dean Palmers 
and Damion Easleys; guys who were all, at one time, above-average ball 
players but never anywhere near being stars.

We need to see some guys brought into the minors who have the talent 
and are given the coaching to succeed at the major league level.

Before that, we need some starting-quality every day baseball players.  
Immediately, we need a catcher, shortstop and center fielder who can 
field as well as an average major league baseball player and also hit 
well.  The Tigers don't have anyone on the team, or in the minors, with 
any hope of achieving at that level.

The Tigers were able to cut salary for next year by some $20-25 
million, and now need to invest that money.  They cut Damion Easley 
($14 million for this year and next year), and Dean Palmer ($8 
million), Craig Paquette ($2 million).  They'll also probably lose 
Shane Halter ($2 million) and Matt Anderson ($3.2 million).

In another year they'll be able to dump Bobby Higginson ($12 million); 
there's no reason they can't apply that money to better baseball 
players as well.

All of those guys were signed to big contracts by Randy Smith, who 
never had any idea what constituted a good baseball player.  Dave 
Dombrowski is better at evaluating talent.  Therein lies my hope for 
next year and the next few years.  If Dombrowski is given the money 
that Randy Smith was allowed to spend, I think he can build a good 
baseball team with it.

But, we'll see.


#111 of 116 by murph on Mon Sep 29 14:43:44 2003:

Wouldn't it almost be better if the Tigers had beaten the record?  Then they'd
have undoubtedly hit bottom and would only be able to improve.  It's like the
Lions: why can't they go completely winless and be a memorably horrible team,
instead of dragging out one or two wins per season and being merely on the
low end of mediocre?

I'm at least half trolling here...


#112 of 116 by jep on Mon Sep 29 15:27:42 2003:

Imagine that... (-:

The Tigers can always be worse as long as their record is not 0-162.  I 
think it's a pretty fair bet that they'll win more than 43 games next 
year.  I don't distinguish much between 43 and 70 wins, though; either 
way you're a last place team.  They haven't improved until they're not 
last place in their division.  I hope they won't be in last place again 
next year.

They haven't really improved until they break this string of 
consecutive losing seasons.  This was the 10th or 11th straight year 
with a less than .500 record.  I'd be delighted if they win game #82 
next year.

They aren't a good team until they make it into the playoffs.  They're 
at least a couple of years away from that.  I can wait if they start to 
improve.  (If they don't start to improve, I'll wait anyway, of course.)


#113 of 116 by albaugh on Mon Sep 29 17:31:26 2003:

No, it would not have been better for them to have set any more records for
being the worst team in some regard.  Losing 4 more games and having all the
"worst" records for themselves would not have made Illitch decide to do
something different than what he has already announced.  At least this way
people (at least outside of Detroit) will quickly forget about how bad they
really were.


#114 of 116 by flem on Mon Sep 29 19:04:46 2003:

I was hoping the Tigers would lose out also.  As one of my friends put it,
"Stupid Tigers can't even lose right."


#115 of 116 by albaugh on Mon Sep 29 19:06:50 2003:

Then s/he is just as "stupid" as the Tigers.  ;-)


#116 of 116 by willcome on Thu Nov 27 07:44:36 2003:

I wish I knew how to whorek out what you're saying.  I just don't understand
it.  These guys are from England, and who gives a shit?


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