Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 176: Mars is closest in a lifetime.

Entered by pvn on Wed Aug 27 05:25:53 2003:

There seems to be a bit of media hype about Mars these days.  Sure and
its a remarkable event.  I was chatting with a techno/geek friend who
happens to among other things sell telescopes and he commented that he
really hated it all, hated, hated, hated.  I was rather surprised as he
seemed to be moving a lot of stock.  "Sure, and its all going to be
returned because its broken".  "Broken?"  "Yep"  Now I am a bit confused
as he sells a range from 100$US to 2500$US scopes of various models
(some even with USB interface) so they can't all be "broken".  He
explained that he's been selling a lot to folk that are going to go out
in the backyard and look at mars with their kids.  "IF they can find the
bloddy thing in the first place they ain't exactly going to be impressed
with spending 150$US to see something the size of a pencil viewed on end
(he does sell at a discount) and they are gonna be really pissed to
spend 2500$US to see somthing the size of the tip of their little
finger"
16 responses total.

#1 of 16 by rcurl on Wed Aug 27 06:40:08 2003:

Interesting consequence - what other commodities have created a similar
flood of returns?


#2 of 16 by mcnally on Wed Aug 27 08:04:08 2003:

  At one point several years ago in the PDA business (I think it was right
  after the second generation WinCE devices came out (the generation before 
  Microsoft introduced the "PocketPC" hardware standards..)) the return
  rate on a number of the best-selling WinCE handhelds was reported to be
  in the 60-70% range.  With their color screens and windows-like GUI
  widgets the WinCE devices looked sexier in the stores than the competing
  devices from Palm and apparently quite a few of them were sold.  Interface
  problems, lackluster software, and really poor battery life were blamed
  for the surprisingly high return rates.  (For what it's worth, in my opinion
  Microsoft's and their licensees' offerings have improved considerably since
  that time, while Palm's development has lagged.  The balance has undoubtedly
  changed.  At the time, though, the state of the competition was considerably
  different.)

  It wouldn't surprise me to find that a lot of products have >70% return
  rates.  For most such products I would imagine this is expected and built
  into the retail price, but I'd assume that every now and then retailers
  get blindsided..


#3 of 16 by sj2 on Wed Aug 27 09:34:06 2003:

Hype always does some good and some bad. IMHO, this one's good. I hope 
it will draw a lot of people to buy telescope's and view the sky 
above. After the hype's gone, the number of amateur astronomers 
would've gone up.

Also, webcam and digital cameras have brought astrophotography within 
the reach of almost every amateur astronomer. No longer do you need to 
be a pro at using a SLR and developing films. To me, that means more 
eyes will be focussed on the sky and more pictures will be taken and 
if we are lucky, more stuff will be discovered.


#4 of 16 by sj2 on Wed Aug 27 09:44:28 2003:

I think the "pencil" view thing is exaggerated. I bought a 114mm dia / 
1000mm FL Skywatcher telescope for about $160 after discounts. I got a 
2x magnification barlow lens free with it. With a 4mm eyepiece, I can 
view the craters on the moon, the polar ice caps of the mars and a few 
other geographical features of mars!!! And I just started 4 days back. 

Experienced amateurs say that as you look at the same object, day 
after day, you learn to see more features.

So unless the moms and dads buy mickey-mouse telescopes, I expect lots 
of kids to get attracted to this hobby.


#5 of 16 by rcurl on Wed Aug 27 17:17:41 2003:

(That's how Lowell "discovered" the Martian canals - by looking at it day
after day.)


#6 of 16 by albaugh on Wed Aug 27 17:59:36 2003:

There probably *would* have been a massive return of portable generators after
January 1, 2000, but it's been said that most were sold under the condition
of "no return" after 12/31/99.


#7 of 16 by jmsaul on Wed Aug 27 22:26:56 2003:

Not all of them were.  I bought one beforehand, from a large national chain
with a liberal return policy, and returned it unused afterwards.


#8 of 16 by russ on Thu Aug 28 03:17:00 2003:

Re #5:  It appears that he was actually "staring" at the blood
vessels in his own retina (ultra-small aperture, relatively bright
light source; same basic scheme as an opthomologist uses).


#9 of 16 by rcurl on Thu Aug 28 06:26:42 2003:

His drawings don't look much like the retinal rete I see at the
opthomologist - and what should have been a known quantity to Lowell. I
don't know what he was actually seeing, but he came to the conclusion
patterns were consistent and changed with the Martian rotation. He was
probably just making too much out of the vague patterns that re visible on
Mars from here.



#10 of 16 by gull on Thu Aug 28 13:38:12 2003:

Probably.  The human brain's visual centers are sort of optimized to
pick out and enhance patterns and edges.  If you look long enough at
something  essentially random it's easy to see patterns that aren't there.



#11 of 16 by drew on Fri Aug 29 00:11:37 2003:

So when did someone come up with the idea of *taking photographs* through the
scope? Before or after Lowell's "discovery"?


#12 of 16 by gull on Fri Aug 29 00:26:07 2003:

I think it took a while for photography to get good enough.  Telescope
mounts had to be good, too, since to get a clear picture with the long
exposures that are necessary you have to keep the object stationary in
the field of view.


#13 of 16 by rcurl on Fri Aug 29 05:47:28 2003:

Here's a short piece from
http://users.ce.net/users/alemos/html/lowell.htm:

"Lowell:  No other recent scientist and researcher has had an effect on
the minds and hopes of mankind to find life on another planetary body
other than on earth more than Percivel Lowell. A businessman and traveler
in the Far East before becoming obsessed with Schiaparelli's canals
(canali or channels) on Mars, Lowell founded an observatory near
Flagstaff, Arizona which bears his name. Particularly suited to study the
heavens, this location at a higher altitude, took advantage of a thinner
atmosphere, undisturbed by lights and clouds and thus produced clearer
images.  For more than a decade he charted what he perceived as the
crisscross markings of Mars. Lowell maintained that these markings were
canals that had been constructed by intelligent beings. His claims were
vehemently denied by other astronomers and the eventual interpretation of
the photographic images gathered by the Mariner probes which imaged Mars
in the 60s seemed to disprove his assumptions. It is strange, though, that
his assistant Mr.  C. O. Lampland was able to capture 38 of these canals
on a single photographic plate (1905).  The images seemed to be of such
quality as to precipitate an award for the effort by the British Royal
Photographic Society. Lowell did contribute information that was
acceptable to the scientific community however. He correctly predicted the
position of a perturbing planet beyond Neptune which was later discovered
by Clyde Tombaugh and named Pluto. The first two letters in the name for
this new planet (PL) were in honor of Percival Lowell."



#14 of 16 by russ on Sat Aug 30 13:31:18 2003:

Re #12:  It took much longer for photography to get *fast*
enough.  The atmosphere doesn't stand still for very long in
most places, and bad "seeing" is a big issue to this day.
No matter how sharp your image is in each split second, if
it keeps moving during your exposure it averages to a blur.


#15 of 16 by rcurl on Sat Aug 30 20:27:04 2003:

Just as important is the chaotic distribution of refractive indices in
the turbulent atmosphere. Images are blurred if even they could be
taken instantaneously. 


#16 of 16 by clees on Thu Sep 4 06:16:51 2003:

Closest in a lifetime is quite the euphamism.


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