Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 171: Drinking and Driving: When to begin?

Entered by gelinas on Fri Aug 22 13:24:08 2003:

To continue the discussion that started in the 'General Announcements' item:

What are the appropriate ages to legally drink and to legally drive?
42 responses total.
#1 of 42 by jep on Fri Aug 22 13:31:51 2003:

I think 16 for driving is fine, but I also approve of the restrictions 
many states have implemented, such as "only one other person in the 
car" and "no driving after 11:00 p.m.".

I think the drinking age should be 18.

I would be surprised to hear there's been any reduction in 
alcohol/drug impaired driving accidents by teenagers because of 
raising the drinking age above 18.  It's only slightly more difficult 
for 18-to-21 year olds to get alcohol because of these laws.

#2 of 42 by cross on Fri Aug 22 15:31:26 2003:

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#3 of 42 by tod on Fri Aug 22 16:02:34 2003:

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#4 of 42 by glenda on Fri Aug 22 17:25:16 2003:

I agree, teach responsible drinking at home.  My parents weren't big drinkers,
but we got sips when they did have something.  When we got old enough to ask
for a drink at a family function, we were allowed to have it.  I have done
the same with my two kids.  Staci doesn't like the taste or smell at all and
refuses to even try.  Damon got scared by how much it took to make him feel
the effects.  He does have to occasional glass of pear or apple ale when I
buy it, or a beer with STeve or a margarita if we make them.  We aren't big
drinkers either, but they have seen us have a drink how and then, usually when
we go out for a nice dinner (and then only one of us drinks and we made a big
deal of deciding who was drinking and who was driving when the kids where
young).

#5 of 42 by slynne on Fri Aug 22 19:34:10 2003:

When I was a kid, my dad announced that the drinking age in our house 
was 11. After I was 11, I was allowed to have wine with dinner and 
stuff. I tend to agree that helped me learn how to drink responsibly. I 
also went through a big binge drinking phase when I was 15. It was 
luckily over by the time I was 16 and driving. 

Here is a thought though. Alcohol is a drug. Some people would consider 
it child abuse for a person to give their kids drugs. Is it legal to 
give a child under 18 alcohol?

#6 of 42 by tod on Fri Aug 22 19:45:11 2003:

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#7 of 42 by slynne on Fri Aug 22 19:49:16 2003:

I bet it would look bad in a child custody case though. So if you give 
your kids alcohol, dont plan on getting divorced.

#8 of 42 by tod on Fri Aug 22 19:56:38 2003:

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#9 of 42 by rcurl on Fri Aug 22 20:21:59 2003:

My three children, all "of age", either do not drink or drink very little,
usually as wine with a meal. We never denied them "sampling" alcoholic
drinks at any age, but then we were never bad examples of overindulgence
either. I'm inclined to think it is bad parental examples that lead most
people to excessive drinking (and raging teetotalers are also bad
examples).

#10 of 42 by jep on Fri Aug 22 20:40:41 2003:

It's done a lot; if it's illegal, there's a lot of scofflaws out 
there.  I'm one.  I let my son have a sip of my beer occasionally, if 
I'm having a beer when he's around.  He loves beer.

A year or so ago, I bought him some O'Douls, figuring it's got 
practically no alcohol and wouldn't hurt him.  It turned into a social 
problem; he started naming his toy animals "O'Douls Beer Drinker", and 
telling everyone about how his dad lets him drink O'Doul's.  His mother 
raised a fuss about it, and so I had to cut him off.

Since then, I don't drink beer much when he's around, and so there's 
not much occasion to let him have any sips.

It'll be interesting to see how I handle his desire to drink when he's 
15.  My feeling now is that, as long as he does it when he's home, it's 
fine with me.  Better he does it at home with me around, than somewhere 
else.

We talk about drinking and driving occasionally now, and will discuss 
it more when he gets close to driving age, so he'll know that I am very 
strongly against him doing that.  I've got to get another copy of Mike 
Fedel's "I Miss Your Smile", which is about Mike's daughter who was 
killed by a drunk driver.

#11 of 42 by tod on Fri Aug 22 22:25:15 2003:

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#12 of 42 by cross on Sat Aug 23 00:36:36 2003:

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#13 of 42 by happyboy on Sat Aug 23 01:15:44 2003:

re11

/passes tod an ice cold can of BAPst

#14 of 42 by jaklumen on Sat Aug 23 01:50:50 2003:

I hope that responsibility and clear-headedness is implied: there are 
cases of teenage binge drinking where the parents bought the alcohol.  
I think most here are suggesting that moderation be taught by example, 
but I wasn't perfectly sure because it wasn't said so explicitly.

Of course, consistency would be a stabilizing influence, as I'm sure 
many kids get mixed messages from many sources in their lives.

#15 of 42 by twenex on Sat Aug 23 14:41:28 2003:

Over here, (that is, in the UK), the legal drinking age is 18, but the legal
age for smoking cigarettes is 16. The legal age for voting is 18, but the
legal age for being an MP is 21 (afaik, the legal age for being a Member of
the House of Lords is 18, but you also must be one of the few Lords that still
are entitled to sit in the House, or appointed by a government commission).

The legal age for driving is 17, or 18 for a truck ("medium-sized goods
vehicle"). So you can smoke and drink before you can drive.

Also, the legal age at which you are deemed to be a "consenting adult" for
the purposes of sexual intercourse is 16, but 18 (recently reduced from 21)
for gays. Go figure.

#16 of 42 by twenex on Sat Aug 23 14:44:48 2003:

Erratum - you can smoke before you can drive, but you have to wait a year to
drink legally.

In private houses, "with adult supervision", the legal drinking age is 5. This
hasn't stopped the kind of binge drinking British football (soccer) hooligans
and holiday makers get up to - to the point that in Peninsular Castilian (or
Spanish as spoken in Spain), the word for "British football fan" is now
"hooligan".

#17 of 42 by jep on Sun Aug 24 03:37:28 2003:

The legal age for smoking tobacco should be raised.  It's 18 all over 
America (I think).  I wouldn't mind if it were 25.  Maybe 35 would be 
better.

#18 of 42 by tod on Sun Aug 24 13:48:18 2003:

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#19 of 42 by gelinas on Sun Aug 24 15:09:11 2003:

The only excuse for a 'legal smoking age' is that we don't teach our children
to be responsible for themselves.

Come to think of it, that's the only excuse for a legal drinking age, too.

#20 of 42 by russ on Sun Aug 24 20:24:58 2003:

Parents leading by example.  Hey, that would work great as
long as pickup-driving, beer-swilling, "good ol' boys"
weren't allowed to be parents.

Hmmm.....

#21 of 42 by klg on Mon Aug 25 00:53:30 2003:

Where is there established a legal age for smoking tobacco?  (We know of 
a legal age for the purchase of tobacco products.)

#22 of 42 by jaklumen on Mon Aug 25 03:35:15 2003:

resp:18 yes, not all parents are willing to lead by example, 
unfortunately...

#23 of 42 by goose on Mon Aug 25 18:18:16 2003:

RE #21 In Michigan we're covered by Public Act 31 of 1915, the Youth Tobacco
Act.  722.642 Possessing or using tobacco products in public by person under
18; violation as misdemeanor; penalty; participation in health promotion and
risk reduction assessment program; costs; community service.  

So it looks like a minor can smoke in the privacy of their home.

#24 of 42 by tod on Mon Aug 25 18:28:34 2003:

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#25 of 42 by drew on Tue Aug 26 00:07:21 2003:

They had "community service" and "health awareness" concerning tobacco in
1915?

#26 of 42 by goose on Tue Aug 26 14:00:03 2003:

722.642 is from 1972...ammendments

#27 of 42 by bru on Tue Aug 26 15:20:48 2003:

The thing to do is pick one age and make it the age of majority.

If I can smoke at age x, I should also be able to drink, drive, vote, have
sex, and get any license.

That age should be 21, with the exception of those in the military.  If you
are in the military, you should have access to all those vices.

#28 of 42 by mynxcat on Tue Aug 26 16:41:25 2003:

Where did people get the ages of 16, 18 and 21 anyways?

#29 of 42 by rcurl on Tue Aug 26 17:11:46 2003:

Compromise....

#30 of 42 by other on Tue Sep 9 03:50:01 2003:

Presumably from some combination of objective determination of "maturity" 
and social status at those various ages, over the years.  That would be 
my guess.  In other words, what Rane said.

#31 of 42 by keesan on Sun Sep 14 15:52:22 2003:

Most smokers start a few years before the legal age, unfortunately.  Lowering
the legal age for buying tobacco would make it easier for more stupid kids
to start earlier.  Probably the same for drinking.  You can ask older kids
to buy for you but this is more complicated and probably reduces the frequency
of use or the number of users.

#32 of 42 by tod on Sun Sep 14 17:27:55 2003:

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#33 of 42 by rcurl on Sun Sep 14 18:20:51 2003:

To the extent that it will be a greater burden on society if we don't
coddle them. The costs of human stupidity is also enormous - we don't
need to make it larger intentionally.

#34 of 42 by gelinas on Sun Sep 14 20:01:00 2003:

"Stupidity is a capital crime, with the sentence executed by Nature."

#35 of 42 by tod on Mon Sep 15 06:23:50 2003:

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#36 of 42 by rcurl on Mon Sep 15 16:14:20 2003:

They are  positively correlated.

#37 of 42 by tod on Mon Sep 15 16:28:07 2003:

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#38 of 42 by gull on Tue Sep 16 00:08:57 2003:

I think people should be required to buckle up their kids, but once they 
reach adulthood if they want to be stupid they can go unbelted.

#39 of 42 by rcurl on Tue Sep 16 00:15:15 2003:

I support the seatbelt law. It is hardly a real infringement of any civil
liberty and, in fact, is more like a part of the machinery of operating a
safe car. My reasons are not just to protect other drivers, but to keep
bodies out of the path of my car if I am among crashing vehicles. They
make a real mess.

#40 of 42 by gelinas on Tue Sep 16 02:37:02 2003:

Seatbelts also help to keep drivers behind the wheel, where they have a better
chance of maintaining control.  This can be really useful in the last few
minutes, or seconds, before a crash.

#41 of 42 by tod on Tue Sep 16 05:07:08 2003:

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#42 of 42 by rcurl on Tue Sep 16 07:14:38 2003:

They aren't called "brain buckets" for nothing.

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