Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 148: Fat Albert loses engine, dumps fuel over Seattle

Entered by tod on Wed Aug 6 21:38:53 2003:

tod Jul 21 23:50:50 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:50:50 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:5
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tod J
41 responses total.

#1 of 41 by tod on Wed Aug 6 21:42:54 2003:

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#2 of 41 by jmsaul on Wed Aug 6 22:06:04 2003:

WHat was the plume of smoke?


#3 of 41 by tod on Wed Aug 6 22:09:35 2003:

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#4 of 41 by sno on Thu Aug 7 01:39:45 2003:

Makes me wonder how much lawn damage was done by the fuel.

"My lawn just up and died!", said John Phillips while looking over the
yellow turf that once was his front yard.



#5 of 41 by tod on Thu Aug 7 04:17:41 2003:

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#6 of 41 by sno on Fri Aug 8 01:23:03 2003:

I'd be surprised if the fuel was dropped over the same runway where
the plane was intended to land.  Sparks.



#7 of 41 by tod on Fri Aug 8 02:42:12 2003:

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#8 of 41 by russ on Fri Aug 8 02:54:28 2003:

Hmmm.  Fun target for a model rocket....


#9 of 41 by scott on Fri Aug 8 12:14:31 2003:

Russ, please report to your neighborhood tribunal.  Giving such information
to possible terrorists is punsishable.  ;)


#10 of 41 by bru on Fri Aug 8 13:39:19 2003:

I think the dispersal is such that there is not enough of a mixture to be
combustable.


#11 of 41 by cross on Fri Aug 8 18:36:58 2003:

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#12 of 41 by russ on Sat Aug 9 01:55:37 2003:

A Hercules doesn't burn avgas, it burns jet fuel.  Kerosene is a
lot less volatile than gasoline and will hang around a lot longer.

Come to think of it, those engines would probably run just fine on
biodiesel (with about a 10% loss of range).  Not only is biodiesel
a lot less volatile than even jet fuel, it's also biodegradable.


#13 of 41 by tod on Sat Aug 9 18:53:16 2003:

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#14 of 41 by russ on Mon Aug 11 00:02:12 2003:

Flash point of methanol is something like 50 degrees F, so an aerial
methanol dump could come down as a combustible (and toxic) cloud.
Flash point of biodiesel is over 300 degrees F, it has a lot more
energy per gallon, and it wouldn't require redesigning the fuel system.


#15 of 41 by i on Mon Aug 11 01:26:37 2003:

"...damaged plane blankets city with french-fry grease before making
emergency landing..."


#16 of 41 by tod on Mon Aug 11 15:30:40 2003:

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#17 of 41 by russ on Tue Aug 12 22:52:43 2003:

What would you rather have raining down from the sky:  french-fry
grease, or toxic, flammable, water-contaminating and possibly
carcinogenic chemicals derived from black sludge?


#18 of 41 by jaklumen on Tue Aug 12 22:59:21 2003:

I'd actually go for the french-fry grease.  Easier to clean out of the 
clothes.  (Obvious answer for a loaded question, right?)


#19 of 41 by tod on Tue Aug 12 23:54:50 2003:

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#20 of 41 by gull on Wed Aug 13 02:29:52 2003:

Actually, in #17 the words 'flammable' and 'possibly carcinogenic' apply
to both kerosene and french fry grease.


#21 of 41 by oval on Wed Aug 13 11:45:41 2003:

ya i was thinking there ain't much difference, though one sounds tastier.



#22 of 41 by dcat on Wed Aug 13 19:48:20 2003:

I'm thinking the french-fry grease probably wouldn't be too good for the
water, either.


#23 of 41 by gull on Wed Aug 13 21:51:54 2003:

Probably not, though I suppose it'd biodegrade better than kerosene.


#24 of 41 by russ on Thu Aug 14 04:07:19 2003:

Actually, fry-grease is not flammable as I understand the nomenclature.

It is designated "combustible", as its flash point is over 300 degrees F.

This puts it in the same class as such dangerous substances as wood,

paper, cotton and wool.  You don't want to put ANY of these things on

you and then light them on fire.



#25 of 41 by gull on Thu Aug 14 14:34:46 2003:

I think it has about the same combustibility as diesel fuel.


#26 of 41 by russ on Sat Aug 16 13:46:14 2003:

You can ignite diesel fuel by holding an open flame over a pool of it
at room temperature, no?  I'd like to see you do that with fry grease.


#27 of 41 by gull on Sat Aug 16 20:17:28 2003:

I think it takes more than holding a match above a puddle of diesel to
get it to ignite, actually.


#28 of 41 by goose on Sun Aug 17 13:52:02 2003:

Yeah, it's been a while, but I remember having a hard time getting some diesel
to light with a match.


#29 of 41 by gull on Sun Aug 17 21:44:25 2003:

Gasoline, on the other hand...


#30 of 41 by russ on Sun Aug 17 22:13:31 2003:

Looks like #2 diesel has a flash point of 125 F or so.  I guess that's
room temperature, if your room is in Baghdad and the power's out. ;-)

Biodiesel has a flash point well over 300 F.


#31 of 41 by i on Mon Aug 18 02:23:22 2003:

And uranium oxide *does not have* a flash point at all.  Clearly nuclear
power is the way to go!          :)



#32 of 41 by gull on Mon Aug 18 12:55:25 2003:

I remember the U.S. military briefly toyed with the idea of
nuclear-powered aircraft.  That idea is kooky for a number of reasons,
not all of them immediately obvious. :>


#33 of 41 by tod on Mon Aug 18 20:03:40 2003:

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#34 of 41 by lynne on Tue Aug 19 17:59:34 2003:

as i recall, diesel cars have to compress the fuel before igniting it.


#35 of 41 by drew on Tue Aug 19 20:09:28 2003:

No, they compress the *air* - very fast, to make it hot. This makes it hot
enough to set even stubborn-to-light biodiesel on fire, when pumped into the
cylinder.


#36 of 41 by gull on Tue Aug 19 20:35:33 2003:

Very fast, and very tightly.  Compression ratios in small diesels are
about four times what they are in gasoline engines.


#37 of 41 by drew on Tue Aug 19 21:42:09 2003:

32 to 1?? Gasoline engines are usually 8 to 1 (by volume).


#38 of 41 by i on Wed Aug 20 00:04:52 2003:

Re: #34
The diesel fuel has to be under pretty high pressure to be injected into
the cylinder and burn with decent efficiency.  New & higher-performance
diesels use some extremely high pressures.


#39 of 41 by gull on Wed Aug 20 15:30:35 2003:

Re #37: Hmm...yeah, you're right, it's more like 3 times higher.  A 1.9L
normally-aspirated VW diesel has a 22.5:1 compression ratio.  I think
the 1.6L was a little lower.  I was thinking gasoline engines were
running down around 6:1 or 7:1 for regular unleaded, but a web search
shows new cars are using 10:1 on 87 octane (presumably with knock sensors.)


#40 of 41 by russ on Thu Aug 21 01:43:29 2003:

Facts:  Typical compression ratios of modern gasoline engines run
from about 8.0:1 (turbocharged engine or one for low-grade fuel)
to 10.5:1 (normally-aspirated high-performance engine running on
premium gas).  The diesels I've seen specs on run about 17:1.

There's a gas-turbine/diesel hybrid called a Hyperbar which gets
compression-ignition with only about 6:1 in the piston part, but
it's a funky cycle and AFAIK there are no commercial offerings.
(The outlet temperature of the turbocompressor is high enough to
allow compression-ignition with only a modest volumetric ratio,
though idling is problematic and starting requires one to spin
up the turbo first, then crank the piston part.)


#41 of 41 by liedele on Thu Aug 28 13:51:35 2003:

Gee, they could make that stunt part of their show, give ya a real thrill.


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