Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 143: ACLU Files First Challenge to USA PATRIOT Act

Entered by oval on Sat Aug 2 16:44:10 2003:

ACLU Cites Radical Expansion of FBI Powers

July 30, 2003 - Press Release

DETROIT  The American Civil Liberties Union today filed the first legal
challenge to the USA PATRIOT Act, taking aim at a section of the controversial
law that vastly expands the power of FBI agents to secretly obtain records
and personal belongings of innocent people in the United States, including
citizens and permanent residents.

Ordinary Americans should not have to worry that the FBI is rifling through
their medical records, seizing their personal papers, or forcing charities
and advocacy groups to divulge membership lists, said Ann Beeson, Associate
Legal Director of the ACLU and the lead attorney in the lawsuit.
 
We know from our clients that the FBI is once again targeting ethnic,
religious, and political minority communities disproportionately, she added.
Investing the FBI with unchecked authority to monitor the activities of
innocent people is an invitation to abuse, a waste of resources, and is
certainly not making any of us any safer.
 
As the ACLU described in a report released today, Section 215 of the PATRIOT
Act violates constitutional protections against unreasonable searches and
seizures as well as the rights to freedom of speech and association. The
report, Unpatriotic Acts: The FBIs Power to Rifle Through Your Records and
Personal Belongings Without Telling You, describes how the law:

 Violates the Fourth Amendment by allowing the FBI to search and seize records
or personal belongings without a warrant, without showing probable cause --
and without ever notifying even innocent people of the searches;
 Violates the First Amendment because it allows the FBI to easily obtain
information about a persons reading habits, religious affiliations, Internet
surfing and other expressive activities that would be chilled by the threat
of investigation;
 Violates the First Amendment by imposing a gag order that prohibits those
served with Section 215 orders from telling anyone -- ever -- that the FBI
demanded information, even if the information is not tied to a particular
suspect and poses no risk to national security.
 
The ACLU filed the lawsuit in federal court here today on behalf of six
advocacy and community groups from across the country whose members and
clients believe they are currently the targets of investigations because of
their ethnicity, religion and political associations. The lawsuit names
Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller as the
defendants.
 
 
The groups participating in the lawsuit are: Muslim Community Association of
Ann Arbor (MCA), which operates a mosque and school in Ann Arbor, MI;
American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC), a national civil rights
organization based in Washington, DC; Arab Community Center for Economic and
Social Services (ACCESS), a human services organization based in Dearborn,
MI that operates a medical clinic as well as a center for refugees and torture
victims; Bridge Refugee and Sponsorship Services (Bridge), based in Knoxville,
TN; Council on American-Islamic Relations, a grassroots membership
organization based in Washington, DC; and The Islamic Center of Portland,
Masjed As-Saber, which operates a mosque and school, based in Portland, OR.

 read on.. 
http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=309

61 responses total.

#1 of 61 by slestak on Sat Aug 2 20:00:15 2003:

This is good to hear...The White House is kicking around the "Patriot Act II"
right now.  
http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.ph
p
Soon if your a "power user" using an "off brand OS" you might be an enemy of
the state. What a joke.


#2 of 61 by sj2 on Sat Aug 2 20:26:45 2003:

Well, what can I say? You are welcome to migrate to India and take up 
jobs that are outsourced from the US ;-)

We are already a billion, a few more million won't hurt :D


#3 of 61 by slestak on Sat Aug 2 23:07:41 2003:

Wow that hurt...What kind of jobs????? hehe $>|


#4 of 61 by twenex on Sun Aug 3 00:03:52 2003:

Just be glad you folks have a constitution, and it's enforceable. In the UK
we folks aren't so lucky. Parliament is sovereign, and can do whatever the
hell it likes, limited only by European law. blech.


#5 of 61 by i on Sun Aug 3 02:34:10 2003:

"Parliament is sovereign" may be true in theory, but that doesn't seem
to be getting Mr. Blair (or the BBC) out of political hot water.  Nor
does it seem to prevent fairly regular changes in which political party
'controls' Parliament.

Over here, our "enforcable" Constitution is interpreted by "independent"
judges who (in practice) often seem to be anything but, and packing the
bench with judges qualified far more by loyalty than professionism seems
not to bother most of our indifferently-interested electorate. 


#6 of 61 by pvn on Sun Aug 3 05:50:34 2003:

Uh, apparently it must come as a surprise to some that there is
currently a war on and the combatants not only don't wear uniforms
easily identifying them as the enemy but they live among us.  Even the
draconian _Patriot Act_ which I personally detest has a sunset provision
and so I for one am willing to put up with it for awhile.  And yes, I
know the quotes - I probably know more about the quotes than you do so
don't bother.  And yes I am fully aware that "temporary powers" granted
to a government are rarerly surrendered - witness the 1913 Income tax
act which was supposed to be temporary and was only on a small 2% or so
of the "super rich".  But there is a war on, so lets all sit back and
see how this plays out.  Right about now is not the time to be screwing
with the mechanism of keeping US citizens safe - that is a process that
should be reserved for peacetime.


#7 of 61 by sj2 on Sun Aug 3 10:28:49 2003:

And what if the said *war* continues for decades?? Like in Israel, UK, 
India and Russia?

Terrorism's already won if you put such laws in place. 


#8 of 61 by twenex on Sun Aug 3 13:20:54 2003:

The war on terrorism will *never* be over; no sooner had we put to an end most
of the violence in Northern Ireland than we found ourselves embroiled in a
war to combat terrorism in the US which can only put Europe in harm's way.
However, i do think that standing together with the US on this is important,
because they probably would have moved on to us anyway evn if we had chosen
to ignore our responsibilities at this time.


#9 of 61 by russ on Sun Aug 3 20:13:18 2003:

I hope that the ACLU gets traction in the courts with this.  Our
legislators really screwed up, and the Ashcroft/law-enforcement
power grab was all too successful in the "shock and awe" aftermath
of 9/11.  Congress is showing some spine in refusing to fund any
work on TIA (aka Big Brother), but legislation rolling back the
mistakes isn't going to happen under Bush.  (Another reason to oust
Bush and make sure that J. Edgar Ashcroft has to find other employment.)


#10 of 61 by klg on Sun Aug 3 20:51:29 2003:

Yes.  And then perhaps the G-d given right of each American to be blown 
to smithereens can be added to the Bill of Rights.


#11 of 61 by mary on Mon Aug 4 01:45:41 2003:

It's already there.  See the 2nd Amendment.


#12 of 61 by pvn on Mon Aug 4 04:55:33 2003:

re#11: Cheap shot, mary.  One could equally say that if the 2nd
amendment had been followed the arabs wouldn't have been able to take
over the airplanes with box cutters.

Clearly in the ACLU et al zeal to protect the ability of our enemies to
function our citzens are at greater risk than if such research programs
as the TIA and "dead pool" were allowed to function to see if useful
information to prevent future events could be found.  The next event
that occurs its likely the same liberal crackpots that will then cry
about the inability of the goverenment agencies to have prevented it
while at the same time continuing to ignore that they are very much the
cause of that inability.


#13 of 61 by slestak on Mon Aug 4 08:39:21 2003:

I believe any development in the spirit of TIA by the US government is an
irreversible mistake. The last thing the FBI or any other agency needs is
"more intelligence" and a greater dependency upon wonder tools. In regards
to the FBI, they have plenty of tools and have failed to protect one of their
own buildings against home grown terrorism. If they had an ounce of intuition,
and they were intent on basic security, they'd have junked all those MS
Windows boxen and switched to something secure.(Linux,FreeBSD,etc etc) In
doing so, and asking or urging other agencies / "citizens" to do the same,
they's save us all loads of money and tons of BS defending crappy software.
Goes to show you how forward thinking and concerned about security our
government really is. (This is only one puny example.) After having flown a
great deal all over the US this last year, I haven't seen one security measure
in place that isn't laughable. In Vegas a bunch of the "Airport Security"
folks were dismissed for having numerous types of felonies. These folks were
screened by the government before being employed. One security guy looked at
me and said he hated his job and wished he could go back to pushing people
in wheel chairs. He had gotten a job as a valet after retiring. By the way,
I carried around two 85 pound bags of electronic goods, batteries, wire,
tools,computer components, etc etc... In Baltimore, they had mistakingly put
both bags on the wrong flight. I rushed to baggage claim and was assured
they'd be waiting for me behind the couter. The agent had no record of my bags
or their being lost. We finally went on a search of the airport together and
found them circling on a carousel. I was never questioned about their contents
or my intentions. They did check inside my shoes though.....


#14 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 10:05:06 2003:

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#15 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 10:08:50 2003:

Check this:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow?msid=110455

The Usual Suspect
C UDAY BHASKAR

[ MONDAY, AUGUST 04, 2003 12:00:30 AM ]
 
The invitation from the US Air War College was firm. Regulations 
required that I enter and exit the US only through Atlanta. Having 
cleared immigration swiftly despite the 9/11 anxiety, I was ready to 
catch the domestic flight to Montgomery, Alabama, with three hours to 
kill.

Since the airport was a strict no-smoking area, I stepped out with my 
cigar. Looking around, I saw another cigar smoker. We sized each other 
up as two middle-aged men would and while he looked at the NDA emblem 
on my blazer pocket, my gut said the man had been in uniform at some 
point. Soon we were on first-name basis and George confirmed that he 
had retired from the US air force where he had worked in intelligence 
and was now with airport security.

It was time to check-in. The line was very long and there appeared to 
be a security alert. The    quip  was that bin Laden had been sighted 
in Atlanta. Passports, tickets and luggage were checked thoroughly and 
as the lines kept getting longer, patience was wearing thin.

It was my turn. A harried Mr Thompson looked up,   Yes, Sir. What is 
your flight number, destination and name?   I gave the details. 
Suddenly he looked up,   Uday. I have heard                that 
name.   The lady sitting next to him whispered something in his 
ear.   Are you from Iraq?   I clarified that I was from India.

  Step this side,   said Mr Thompson and went into an office. Everyone 
was looking at me and the conversation was about Uday   son of Saddam 
Hussein. 

After what seemed a very long time, Mr T came out and took me 
aside.   I am sorry Sir, but you cannot get onto this flight.   

  But I have a confirmed ticket all the way from Delhi,   was in vain. 

  The computer will not take your name,   he said with chilling 
finality.

I was taken inside a windowless room.   Please open your bags, Sir.   
The carry-bag was opened and there were notes in a plastic folder with 
multi-coloured lecture cards, boldly scribbled with phrases 
like  Terrorism and WMD ,  Clinton and nuclear weapons ,  bin Laden 
and 9/11 . My cigars in a bottle with moist cotton were held 
up.   This is incriminating. I will have to call my boss,   said  a 
securityman. 

The boss walked in, cigar in hand. It was George.   So you are the 
Uday who looks like bin Laden,   he exclaimed. I was perplexed. As I 
was cleared to catch the next flight the puzzle fell into place. A 
zealous security beaver had linked my name with a computer-generated 
image that placed a turban on my head and I had inadvertently become 
bin Laden.


#16 of 61 by russ on Mon Aug 4 11:33:36 2003:

Re #10:  Funny, Kerry, the government already had a couple of the
9/11 terrorists on watch lists long before the USA un-PATRIOTic
act.  What kept them from being nabbed (and the plot foiled) was
inter-agency turf battles and failure of management to follow
hard leads (like plans found after a terrorist was nabbeed in the
Phillipines).  The law does next to nothing to fix this.

It does, however, allow secret search and seizure of records of all
kinds, and prohibits disclosure of what is being searched.  You might
recall that the typical behavior of the government when it gets such
powers isn't to protect the citizens, but to cover the asses of the
people in authority (and the patrons who put them there).  Do please
try to make a case for J. Edgar Hoover's modus operandi as a right
and proper state of affairs.  I'm sure we will find it most enlightening.

(An example of a government using power to cover its own ass at the
expense of the citizens is China, during the SARS epidemic.  We do
not need to import Chinese Communist Party practices any more than
we needed to import SARS; they are both diseases best eradicated.)


#17 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 16:29:38 2003:

Call me paranoid but maybe this is where its leading to. The future:

-Outsourcing of white collar jobs to India, Russia, Phillipines, 
Indonesia and of blue collar jobs to China, Korea and Taiwan leads to 
rising unemployment in the US and EU.
-The EU is mostly turned US's stooge, politically and economically.
-Civil Rights continue to be trampelled with laws like DMCA, Patriot 
Act, Homeland Security etc in the US and EU.

Well .... take these three and you know what the situation is ripe for.


#18 of 61 by novomit on Mon Aug 4 16:38:03 2003:

Emigration to the Far East to find work?


#19 of 61 by other on Mon Aug 4 17:48:15 2003:

The Phillipines rise to become the dominant world power?


#20 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 18:33:31 2003:

Naaahhh!! Rise of the fourth Reich. ;-)


#21 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 18:35:58 2003:

After which China challenges the US hegemony and both fight to the end 
with mutual destruction assured. That leaves one superpower on the 
Earth - India.


#22 of 61 by tod on Mon Aug 4 18:40:45 2003:

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#23 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 18:44:38 2003:

Ohh!! By that time, most of the kashmiri civilians would've been killed 
by *freedom* fighters. We can kill the remaining few.


#24 of 61 by novomit on Mon Aug 4 18:51:28 2003:

Doesn't sound that terribly far-fetched actually. 


#25 of 61 by cross on Mon Aug 4 18:59:00 2003:

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#26 of 61 by tod on Mon Aug 4 19:20:12 2003:

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#27 of 61 by slestak on Mon Aug 4 19:36:47 2003:

Me vs. Myself vs. I ....


#28 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 20:15:35 2003:

Heh, seriously, who in pre-Nazi germany thought that Germany would give 
rise to a Hitler?


#29 of 61 by tod on Mon Aug 4 20:20:41 2003:

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#30 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 20:23:48 2003:

Ok, but how far would you dispute the following:
1. Unemployment is at an all-time high in the US and jobs are leaving 
the US fast.
2. Recently introduced laws are retrogressive as far as civil rights 
are concerned.
3. The EU is aligning its policies with the interests of the US, 
politically and economically.
4. US has its military presence almost across the whole globe.


#31 of 61 by tod on Mon Aug 4 20:31:03 2003:

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#32 of 61 by sj2 on Mon Aug 4 21:05:25 2003:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/usapatriot_oakland021217.htm
l

Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush 
administration and the USA Patriot Act following the Sept. 11, 2001, 
terror attacks:
   Freedom of Association   Government may monitor religious and 
political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist 
terror investigation.

   Freedom of Information   Government has closed once-public 
immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without 
charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records 
requests.

   Freedom of Speech   Government may prosecute librarians or keepers 
of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed 
information related to a terror investigation.

   Right to Legal Representation   Government may monitor federal 
prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny 
lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

   Freedom from Unreasonable Searches   Government may search and seize 
Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror 
investigation.

   Right to a Speedy and Public Trial   Government may jail Americans 
indefinitely without a trial.

   Right to Liberty   Americans may be jailed without being charged or 
being able to confront witnesses against them. 
------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't consider this against civil rights?? Just curious.



#33 of 61 by cross on Mon Aug 4 21:15:43 2003:

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#34 of 61 by dcat on Mon Aug 4 21:46:41 2003:

[http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,59879,00.html] :


Bush Impeached? Wanna Bet?

   Though there was an outcry over the Pentagon's terrorism futures market, a 
similar online exchange is in the works to predict what the U.S. government is 
up to.

The American Action Market will offer various Washington "futures" that can
be bet upon and traded. Examples include:

 * Which country will the White House threaten next?

 * Who will be the next foreign leader to move off the CIA payroll and onto the
 
White House's "most wanted" list?

 * Which corporation with close ties to the White House will be the next
 cloaked 
in scandal?

The AAM will begin registering traders in September and plans to open for 
business Oct. 1 -- the same launch date proposed for the Pentagon's terrorism 
market, until it was shelved.

Like the Pentagon's scrapped Policy Analysis Market, the AAM lets traders
"bet" on future events by buying and selling futures as though they were
stocks. The higher the price, the more likely the market believes the event
will occur. But instead of predicting terrorist strikes, the AAM will predict
things like the next White House staffer to quit.

[full story at http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,59879,00.html]



#35 of 61 by sj2 on Tue Aug 5 05:46:50 2003:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Business/story_50157.asp
------------------------------------------
AFP - The number of people in the existing US jobless pool - those 
claiming unemployment benefits for at least two weeks - has climbed to 
a 20-year high, the government said.
------------------------------------------

That may not be an all time high but should be worrying. About jobs 
leaving US, only time will tell whether they are come back or not.

About US military, except for China, India and Russia? And they too 
are within aircraft and missile strikes of the US.


#36 of 61 by gelinas on Tue Aug 5 05:50:11 2003:

Except that the US is pulling back from those outposts.


#37 of 61 by sj2 on Tue Aug 5 05:51:18 2003:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2003/0710imperialmap.ht
m

156 countries with US troops, 63 countries with US military bases and 
troops, 7 countries with 13 new bases since 9/11. 46 countries with no 
US troops. - Source DoD, Base Structure Report 2002 etc.


#38 of 61 by novomit on Tue Aug 5 11:28:49 2003:

So what country would you recommend us progressives to emigrate to and how
much would it be likely to cost? 


#39 of 61 by cross on Tue Aug 5 13:22:01 2003:

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#40 of 61 by russ on Tue Aug 5 22:06:09 2003:

Re #35:  Your historical perspective is rather short.  As recently
as the late 1970's, US unemployment was in the neighborhood of 10%
and inflation hit something like 17%.  (The combination of a stagnant
economy and inflation got its own name:  stagflation.)  People were
not rioting in the streets.

This is not to say that 6% unemployment might not get politicians to
do stupid things for political advantage, but politicians don't need
a crisis to do that; manufacturing crises or the impression of one
is a required Poly Sci course nationwide (or might as well be ;-).


#41 of 61 by slestak on Wed Aug 6 01:51:01 2003:

manufacturing crises / manufacturing consent ...?


#42 of 61 by gull on Wed Aug 13 02:12:33 2003:

Re #10: If the goal is to save lives, we'd be better off passing
legislation that bans standing on golf courses during thunderstorms than
passing anti-terrorism legislation.  We're giving up our vital liberties
in exchange for a slight increase in protection against a risk that's
small to begin with.

Re #38: New Zealand might be a good place.  The U.S. Navy isn't allowed
to dock there.  They also treat their gay immigrants better than the
U.S. treats its gay citizens, if that matters to you.


#43 of 61 by bru on Wed Aug 13 13:56:22 2003:

Are you suggesting gays should move to New Zealand?


#44 of 61 by oval on Wed Aug 13 15:27:25 2003:

i think you should.



#45 of 61 by tod on Wed Aug 13 17:18:52 2003:

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#46 of 61 by gull on Wed Aug 13 18:46:56 2003:

Re #43: If the U.S. continues its path towards formally codifying
discrimination against gays, they might at least want to think about
moving to a friendlier country.  I know some people who are planning
moves to Canada because they feel the U.S. is getting steadily more
conservative and theocratic.

Re #45: All I'm saying is that if the goal is to move somewhere where
the U.S. doesn't have a lot of influence, going somewhere the Navy can't
dock isn't a bad idea.

New Zealand won't allow the U.S. Navy to dock there because they're a
"nuke free zone", and the U.S. Navy will "neither confirm nor deny"
whether any particular ship is carrying nuclear weapons.


#47 of 61 by tod on Wed Aug 13 19:04:38 2003:

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#48 of 61 by happyboy on Wed Aug 13 19:09:50 2003:

re44: HAW!


#49 of 61 by russ on Sun Sep 14 23:16:21 2003:

This seems like the appropriate place for this...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=8&u=/ap/20030914/ap_o
n_go_ca_st_pe/anti_terror_laws_2

New Terror Laws Used Vs. Common Criminals
Sun Sep 14, 1:14 PM ET
Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!

By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer

PHILADELPHIA - In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained
fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and
prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on
al-Qaida cells but on people charged with common crimes.

The Justice Department (news - web sites) said it has used authority
given to it by the USA Patriot Act to crack down on currency smugglers
and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and
drug dealers.

Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of
"terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California
man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in
his car.

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a
methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the
manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller
could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings
about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines
chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is
designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and
contains toxic chemicals.

Civil liberties and legal defense groups are bothered by the string
of cases, and say the government soon will be routinely using harsh
anti-terrorism laws against run-of-the-mill lawbreakers.

"Within six months of passing the Patriot Act, the Justice Department
was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping
provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," said Dan Dodson, a
spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys.
"They say they want the Patriot Act to fight terrorism, then, within
six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary
citizens."

Prosecutors aren't apologizing.

Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) completed a 16-city
tour this week defending the Patriot Act as key to preventing a second
catastrophic terrorist attack. Federal prosecutors have brought more
than 250 criminal charges under the law, with more than 130
convictions or guilty pleas.

The law, passed two months after the Sept. 11 attacks, erased many
restrictions that had barred the government from spying on its
citizens, granting agents new powers to use wiretaps, conduct
electronic and computer eavesdropping and access private financial
data.

Stefan Cassella, deputy chief for legal policy for the Justice
Department's asset forfeiture and money laundering section, said that
while the Patriot Act's primary focus was on terrorism, lawmakers were
aware it contained provisions that had been on prosecutors' wish lists
for years and would be used in a wide variety of cases.

In one case prosecuted this year, investigators used a provision of
the Patriot Act to recover $4.5 million from a group of telemarketers
accused of tricking elderly U.S. citizens into thinking they had won
the Canadian lottery. Prosecutors said the defendants told victims
they would receive their prize as soon as they paid thousands of
dollars in income tax on their winnings.

Before the anti-terrorism act, U.S. officials would have had to use
international treaties and appeal for help from foreign governments to
retrieve the cash, deposited in banks in Jordan and Israel. Now, they
simply seized it from assets held by those banks in the United States.

"These are appropriate uses of the statute," Cassella said. "If we
can use the statute to get money back for victims, we are going to do
it."

The complaint that anti-terrorism legislation is being used to go
after people who aren't terrorists is just the latest in a string of
criticisms.

More than 150 local governments have passed resolutions opposing the
law as an overly broad threat to constitutional rights.

Critics also say the government has gone too far in charging three
U.S. citizens as enemy combatants, a power presidents wield during
wartime that is not part of the Patriot Act. The government can detain
such individuals indefinitely without allowing them access to a
lawyer.

And Muslim and civil liberties groups have criticized the
government's decision to force thousands of mostly Middle Eastern men
to risk deportation by registering with immigration authorities.

"The record is clear," said Ralph Neas, president of the liberal
People for the American Way Foundation. "Ashcroft and the Justice
Department have gone too far."

Some of the restrictions on government surveillance that were erased
by the Patriot Act had been enacted after past abuses — including
efforts by the FBI (news - web sites) to spy on civil rights leaders
and anti-war demonstrators during the Cold War. Tim Lynch, director of
the Project on Criminal Justice at the Cato Institute, a libertarian
think tank, said it isn't far fetched to believe that the government
might overstep its bounds again.

"I don't think that those are frivolous fears," Lynch said. "We've
already heard stories of local police chiefs creating files on people
who have protested the (Iraq (news - web sites)) war ... The
government is constantly trying to expand its jurisdictions, and it
needs to be watched very, very closely."

___

On the Net:

Justice Department: http://www.usdoj.gov

American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites):
http://www.aclu.org


#50 of 61 by gelinas on Mon Sep 15 01:02:42 2003:

Can't say I'm surprised, after seeing how RICO has been used in
abortion-rights cases.


#51 of 61 by tod on Mon Sep 15 06:12:18 2003:

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#52 of 61 by remmers on Mon Sep 15 12:58:15 2003:

According to the article, the fear is that the government "soon
will be" using anti-terrorism laws to prosecute run-of-the-mill
cases, not that they currently are.  In other words, we're on a
slippery slope.

So, the US is supposed to take its cue from European law?  Is that
what you're saying?

As for me, I share the concerns voiced by the ACLU and others,
including such flaming liberals as William Safire.  I've kept my
ACLU membership current and sent them additional donations as
well.


#53 of 61 by tod on Mon Sep 15 13:32:57 2003:

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#54 of 61 by mary on Mon Sep 15 23:02:00 2003:

Re: #52  We're not just on a slippery slope - we're skiing! ;-)

I couldn't find the article of a few days ago, in the NYT, I believe,
where it was reported how the Patriot Act was being used to gather
evidence for ordinary (non-terrorist) crime.  But here is a quote from an
article dated 9/7/03 from the Dallas Morning News. 

"Though the government has not revealed most of the details of how it has
applied the Patriot Act, the Justice Department told Congress in May that
it is using the law in criminal cases, not just terrorism investigations.
Federal agents have used the new tools to seize a con man's assets; track
down computer hackers and a fugitive; identify the hoaxster who made a
school bomb threat, and monitor kidnappers' communications, the department
advised the House Judiciary Committee. 

In-house documents show that prosecutors are exploring other ways to use
Patriot Act authorities in criminal investigations."

The full on-line article is at:
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/6716551.htm


#55 of 61 by rcurl on Mon Sep 15 23:41:37 2003:

So, "terrorism" was just used an excuse for negating many of the normal
protections for civil rights. That was to be expected.




#56 of 61 by gull on Tue Sep 16 00:03:01 2003:

Re #49:
> Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which
> defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance
> that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious
> injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

So you could get 12 years to life for posessing battery acid?

I had a feeling we were all being played for suckers when this law was 
passed.  It was never really about terrorism.


#57 of 61 by gelinas on Tue Sep 16 02:33:02 2003:

A few months ago, Time did a piece on Mr. Franklin, including his famous
statement about sacrificing liberty for security.  Congress really should have
known better.


#58 of 61 by lynne on Tue Sep 16 13:14:16 2003:

Hmmm.  Looks like it's probably illegal to be a chemist.


#59 of 61 by rcurl on Tue Sep 16 15:09:22 2003:

Not just that - many  people possess sodium hypochlorite and/or gasoline,
both of which can cause death or serious injury, and which are certainly both
toxic. 


#60 of 61 by dah on Tue Sep 16 22:01:09 2003:

And of course water is a chemical as much as any other and can cause death,
Etc., but maybe I caused misinterpretation.


#61 of 61 by other on Wed Sep 17 04:18:43 2003:

Really.  If that is the legal basis for those convictions, then the 
convicted's counsel was incompetent.


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