Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 130: Budget or Bully?

Entered by tod on Tue Jul 29 20:12:05 2003:

tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:4
tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:4
tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:4
tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 Todd tod Jul 21 23:4
tod Jul 21 23:48:30 2004 T
44 responses total.

#1 of 44 by rcurl on Tue Jul 29 20:16:13 2003:

The US should join the world court and participate in and be subject to
international justice. If the authority is abused, suitable actions can
be taken then. 


#2 of 44 by tod on Tue Jul 29 20:58:27 2003:

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#3 of 44 by bru on Tue Jul 29 21:20:59 2003:

Lets stay out of any worled organization that can punish us for our good
deeds, or at least our attempts to make things better.

The only world government I want is the one with the U.S. of A. in charge.
we are a minority in this world, adn could easily be outvoted by many other
countries.


#4 of 44 by dcat on Tue Jul 29 21:24:17 2003:

And that's necessarily a bad thing?


#5 of 44 by mynxcat on Tue Jul 29 21:33:29 2003:

A World Government with the US of A in charge, potentially means with 
the President of the USA in charge. Dubya in charge of the world. He's 
already proved himself too short-sighted when it comes to his own 
country, how would that work out with the rest of the world?

I don't think having oe country in charge of a world govt is going to 
help. It's hard for any one country to comprehend how other countries 
work. And I think the USA is one of the least equipped countries to 
form a "World Government"


#6 of 44 by tod on Tue Jul 29 21:46:18 2003:

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#7 of 44 by rcurl on Tue Jul 29 22:38:46 2003:

By staying out of the International Court we lose international support
for furthering accusations we have against other nations. This is a much
greater loss than any improbable finding against the USA.


#8 of 44 by tod on Tue Jul 29 23:14:07 2003:

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#9 of 44 by scg on Wed Jul 30 03:07:44 2003:

I have mixed feelings about this.  I don't like to see the US thumbing its
nose at the world, but US courts do provide significantly more protections
than courts in various other places.  I don't think I can make a blanket "a
world court would be good" or "a world court would be bad" statement without
some careful analysis of how the court would operate.


#10 of 44 by keesan on Wed Jul 30 03:28:40 2003:

Maybe bru wants to be king of the world organization.


#11 of 44 by sholmes on Wed Jul 30 03:30:02 2003:

A world govt with USA in charge with a a few leaders like Bush and the whole
world can go back to the stone age.


#12 of 44 by other on Wed Jul 30 03:41:20 2003:

If we do ever develop a world government, it will certainly be 
multilateral -- a power-sharing setup -- and not run by any single 
national government.  And if it ever does develop into a single 
government, it would very likely be administered by a multinational 
corporation, for better or for worse.  (Probably one created solely for 
the purpose.)


#13 of 44 by sj2 on Wed Jul 30 05:31:06 2003:

With its current hegemony, the US can chose to do whatever it feels 
like. Well, almost. It can arm-twist the UN into sanctioning its 
actions and if that fails it can still go ahead. Who's going to oppose 
them on the ground? No one!!

They can quote UN resolutions when it suits them and reject the UN's 
authority when the UN does not approve their actions. 

As a developed nation and the world's largest economy, they have 
sufficient power to arm-twist smaller/thired-world nations. And there 
isn't much the smaller nations can do about it.

With its troops almost all over the globe, the US can send them in to 
almost any part to *liberate* nations and do *peacekeeping*. Who's to 
stand up against them? No one.

The only question is, how long does this hegemony over world affairs 
lasts? 


#14 of 44 by rcurl on Wed Jul 30 05:47:11 2003:

Until China comes into her own (as the expression goes).


#15 of 44 by janc on Wed Jul 30 14:16:24 2003:

At which point it would be nice to have developed some precident for power
sharing among world governments.


#16 of 44 by klg on Wed Jul 30 16:21:36 2003:

re:  "#13 (sj2):. . . As a developed nation and the world's largest 
economy, they have sufficient power to arm-twist smaller/thired-world 
nations. And there isn't much the smaller nations can do about it."

The proof being our ability to control the actions of N. Korea.


#17 of 44 by novomit on Wed Jul 30 16:23:05 2003:

North Korea? Never heard of it!!!


#18 of 44 by scott on Wed Jul 30 16:35:43 2003:

We could easily drum up some alarmist "evidence" aboun N. Korea, just like
we did with Iraq, and then invade.

However, our current President seems more worried about possible weapons in
Iraq than real weapons in N. Korea.  Hey, I didn't vote for him...


#19 of 44 by novomit on Wed Jul 30 16:40:44 2003:

I doubt if we would ever invade any country that we thought capable of
seriously defending itself. Thus NK is out. 


#20 of 44 by cross on Wed Jul 30 17:51:03 2003:

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#21 of 44 by novomit on Wed Jul 30 17:53:01 2003:

That was this, this is now. If we were interested in disarming a country that
really had the means to do us severe damage, why hit on Iraq and not China
or North Korea? 


#22 of 44 by oval on Wed Jul 30 18:11:39 2003:

cuz we gotsta git the fyooul first.



#23 of 44 by novomit on Wed Jul 30 18:24:49 2003:

Good point. 


#24 of 44 by tod on Wed Jul 30 18:37:39 2003:

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#25 of 44 by rcurl on Wed Jul 30 19:33:01 2003:

Re #20: we were attacked first in the case of Japan, and an ally was under
attack in the case of Germany. Iraq was attacking no one when we most recently
invaded. (How quickly - or conveniently - people forget there is a
difference.)


#26 of 44 by cross on Wed Jul 30 20:02:42 2003:

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#27 of 44 by tod on Wed Jul 30 20:03:25 2003:

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#28 of 44 by rcurl on Wed Jul 30 23:23:58 2003:

Note that I wrote "when we most recently invaded". Iraq has not *invaded*
Israel - or do you consider Clinton's tomahawking of Iraq an "invasion"
too? That would mean we "invaded" Iraq twice without provocation.


#29 of 44 by tod on Wed Jul 30 23:27:53 2003:

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#30 of 44 by rcurl on Wed Jul 30 23:35:10 2003:

So, where they an "invasion" of Iraq (as tod is claiming for Iraq's scuds)?


#31 of 44 by cross on Wed Jul 30 23:39:09 2003:

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#32 of 44 by tod on Thu Jul 31 00:02:59 2003:

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#33 of 44 by sj2 on Thu Jul 31 05:26:25 2003:

Whats to gain from attacking N. Korea? Millions of impoverished and 
hungry civilians!!! 


#34 of 44 by other on Thu Jul 31 07:10:31 2003:

Really!  We'd have to accidentally extend the invasion into Russia or 
China to get enough oil out of it to actually justify the expense.


#35 of 44 by sj2 on Thu Jul 31 08:25:22 2003:

I think the whole thing boils down to business. If you need your 
corporations to have access to bigger markets and make more money, you 
would've to sacrifice more lives, civilian and military.

When the British went about fighting Indian (as in South Asia) kings, 
were they protecting Britain from some threat of being invaded? Or 
were they liberating people? No!! They were paving way for British 
companies to get into India and make money. The same's the story here. 
Ofcourse, in the process lots of British soldiers fought and lost 
their lives. What were they told?? That they were patriots fighting to 
defend the Union Jack?


#36 of 44 by janc on Thu Jul 31 13:17:56 2003:

I don't actually know why Bush invaded Iraq.  His stated reasons were bogus.
The theory that it was to open opportunities for American corporations is
certainly plausible.  The general nastiness of the government there would
have been a real factor - as it ensured that they didn't have a lot of allies.
It also explains why Bush wants to keep the UN out.  We went to all this
trouble to open opportunities for American corporations, not German and
Indian ones.  I'm not sure I entirely buy that explanation, but it almost
has to have been at least a significant plus factor.


#37 of 44 by tod on Thu Jul 31 16:26:17 2003:

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#38 of 44 by pvn on Sat Aug 9 07:42:00 2003:

re#1: Where in the US Constitution does it suggest that the federal
government can even think about surrendering sovereign rights that are
only loaned to it in the first place by the individual citizens?
The federal government doesn't have the authority to enter into such an
agreement in the first place.


#39 of 44 by sj2 on Sat Aug 9 10:30:07 2003:

That is why you get national legislatures to ratify a treat/accord. 
Well ... mostly, unless the executive can find a loophole in the law 
that gives it unilateral rights to sign treaty/accord without getting 
approval from the house of representatives like the recent UK-US 
extradition treaty??


#40 of 44 by sj2 on Sat Aug 9 10:32:56 2003:

Btw, the loaned-the-rights-to-the-government thing sounds good in 
theory. If you went to contest a law/regulation on that basis, I am 
sure you can dispute almost every law and end up being an outcast?


#41 of 44 by pvn on Sun Aug 10 05:10:01 2003:

re#39: Or have it overturned.  It only took one tired old lady who
refused to move to the back of the bus...


#42 of 44 by gelinas on Sun Aug 10 13:21:24 2003:

(A minor quibble to #39:  The Senate ratifies treaties; the House of
Representatives has no role in treating wwith foreign powers.)


#43 of 44 by sj2 on Wed Aug 13 16:53:25 2003:

Re #42, By House of Representatives, I did not mean the US HoR but 
generically the HoR of a country. 

In India, the parliament ratifies a treaty. It consists of an publicly 
elected lower house, the Lok Sabha and an upper house, the Rajya Sabha, 
that is elected by an electoral college.


#44 of 44 by gelinas on Wed Aug 13 17:36:56 2003:

Ah.  It's different in the US.  There are two chambers, but only one ratifies
treaties.  That chamber, the United States Senate, also approves appointments
made by the President.

Originally, Senators were elected by the State legislatures.  Now, they are
elected by direct vote.


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