Welcome to the Language Conference! One thing you may notice about this conference is that it is NOT called the "Foreign Languages Conference" or "Languages Conference". This is primarily because most people on Grex do not speak more than one language, and to have such a conference would exclude most of the people here. This, of course, would be counterproductive! But never fear! You have not just joined the "Languages" Conference, but rather the "Language" Conference. Whether you love it, like me, or hate it, language is something that affects everyone, all the time, whether or not you ever had Spanish in high school. Without the use of language, there could be no bbsing, for one thing, and none of us would be here. This conference will contain one item for the speaking of every foreign language spoken by Grex users. Other items will be typed in English, discussing issues in language that affect (and hopefully also interest) everyone. Don't be afraid to enter an item because you fear it's inappropriate to this conference. It probably isn't! So let's use those language skills and talk to each other! Griz111 responses total.
"Whether you love it, like me, or hate it, language is something ..." I think most of us love language *AND* like you. :-)
Haha. :-) Griz
Good start, Larry!
What if I don't like, Jennie? :)
Well, you'll just have to be tarred and feathered. Griz
What if I don't KNOW Jennie? Do I get the tar and feathers, too?
Likhi IJO okjoijopij!!
Mister Craig, it has been a while. (does that make him sound a bit like a hairdresser?)
Leth see.... spruth it up a bit here with mooth.... Ooops, that isnt politically correct........ Hi Ruth. You arent on fire are you?
Not that I'm aware of. (unless, of course, my slacks have begun smoldering again...I'd thought they'd be safe out on the telephone wire...)
This could get as interesting as ENGL:FORUM was. Worked wonders for those who joined - but the English Dept didn't think it attracted the "right" people. So after a semester of a whole lotof fun by us "wrong" sorts, the dept dropped support - and thus the conference.
"Love your enemies in case your friends turn out to be a bunch
of bastards."
Words are overrated as a communication device. Too often, they fail as a means to get across an idea.
Do the words fail, or do we fail to use the words?
Music is the best communications device.
Words are under-taught as a communications device. The wrong words used create the problem.
I find that there are some concepts that just defy language. One has to rely on the experience of others in order to get across the meaning behind what you say, no matter how many different ways you can think of to phrase it.
Darmok and Jelad at Tinagre!
pass
I must argue TS's point. It is not simply the misuse of words which causes the problem, although the choice of the right words in a given situation can make a world of difference. A great portion of the problems come from parties refusing to listen to what other parties are actually *saying*, and to actually consider the meaning of what others say before refuting their points. One of the great advantages of a forum such as this, is that by the process of reading, we are required to more fully register the ideas and thoughts of others before we can effectively respond to them, although I have found that some people do respond to part of what they have read, apparently without reading enough to realize that by doing so, they are responding inappropriately...
short attention span.
Is this the proper place to broach the following AI design? Mind.rexx is available from ftp.wustl.edu in directory pub/aminet/util/rexx. /^^^^^^^^^^^^\ Mind.rexx Artificial Intelligence /^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\ / Visual \ ______ / Auditory \ | Memory Channel | / \ ultimate-tag | Memory Channel | | | / syntax \<---------------|---------------\ | | | \ node / ______ | | | | | \______/------>/ \ | | | | round-about| connection | /function\ | | | | /-----------|-------------\ |flush \ cable / | | | | | | | |vector \______/ | ______ | | | | | _V__V_ | | / \ | | | _|___ | / \ recall-vector| | / stored \ | | | / \ re-af|firmation /logico- \-------------|----|-->\ stem / | | | /percept\<-----|-------->/conceptual\ (onset-tag)| | \______/ | | | \ / line | \ cable / | | | | | | \_____/ | \________/ ______V_ | ultimate|-tag | | | | / \<-|---------' | | | | /inflection\ | ________ | | | | \ cable /-|--->/ \ | | | | \________/ | / stored \| | | | | \inflection/ | | | | \________/ |
excuse me, I think I'm confused. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm too confused to tell whether I'm confused or not. Was that a bee hive? Or a visual discourse on the nature of artificial language?
I thought it was a gerbil cage. Arthur, if there is something to be said about AI and language, I'd like to learn more. How about a new Item, if there is enough content?
er, i thought it was a jungle gym... To get back to the subject, i think that most people don't realize the range of expression that's available in the English language or the subtleties of our inflection system.
"Language is a virus from outer space--and hearing your name is better than seeing your face"--Laurie Anderson 1983 Not necessarily my opinion, but *someone* had to say it:) First one to tell me who already said it in this conference wins a... a... ummm... Oh, poop! I'll think of something... <sigh>
Well, William S. Burroughs already said it, does that count? >8) Seriously, he said it originally, Laurie got it from him.
Thanks, Robert! I had totally forgotten about William S. Burroughs. He certainly counts (even though I'll bet he's not in this conference =>
Looked like a flow chart, a dinosaur from the times of Assembly and Fortran. Psuedo code is used now.
Rule #17 OMIT NEEDLESS WORDS!
We try.
Great looking design by Arthur.... could not understand ABCD of it.. Arthur telle in words what you wanted to say..
Hi everyone! Just wanted to say hello and 'Selamat Datang' ( Welcome)
Welcome Yenny. Is that an Indonesian Language?
There is a discussion in Item 27 of coop about a proposal to make Grex conferences open to reading on the WEB without requiring readers to open Grex accounts (called "anonymoous web reading of conferences"). An argument in favor of doing this is that it could attract new participants in conferencing after readers get a taste of what it is like. If you have an opinion on this with regard to this conference, let us know: if you have a opinion with regard to any other conference, you might start a discussion of it there. In any case, you can read all sides of the issue in coop item 27.
#34, well... actually it a Malay Language spoken by the Malay people in Malaysia Steve, do u know Indonesian Language?
#36, I forgot to mention that Malay & In doneisan , they are more or less the same ( like the greetings etc) but they can be quite different sometimes. Even I have difficulty understanding the Indonesian Language
No. I am not familiar with languages from that part of the world at all. I am curious about all languages, though.
tell me more about Malaya language.
Yenny?
What is "Yenny?".
Not what, "who". Yenny is the person who first used Malay in this item in resp:33.
Hola! He escribido que deseo estudiar Espan~ol porque no hablo la lengua muy bien. Bueno, estoy estudiando en Instituto Cervantes. Es muy interesante! Mi professor es muy simpatica.
Muy bien! Por favor escriba un poco en el "item" espan~ol, para envivir lo.
Sorry for not visiting this conf for a long time. OK, raoa, "Bahasa Malaysia/Melayu" - Malay Language is the language spoken by us Malaysian . "Selamat Datang " is our way of saying welcome. Other examples: Terima Kasih - Thank you Sama-sama - You're welcome I'll try to give other examples from time to time. email me if u want to know some more.
You might want to start a Malay item - just for those writing Malay or those interested in language. What are the roots of Malay?
I thought of doing that, but i wonder how many people in grex know or ever heard of the language. Maybe we can start it somehow. You can usually find Malay people in South East Asia- mainly in Malaysia and few nieghbouring countries like Indonesia and Brunei althought they are not called Malaysian. Theses three group basically have some similarity in they language. Probably that's why Steve thought that when I first used the phrase "Selamat Datang" as an Indonesian language.
Are these "polynesian" languages?
Not too sure about that. Guess I have to check that fact out somehow bfeore I can say anything.
i don't thik malay is a polynesian language. polynesians came from south america, (remember kon-tiki and thor heyerdahl?) is malay related to chinese in anyway? its script for example?
Heyerdahl's thesis was that Polynesians came from South America but didn't stay there, so that alone is not a cogent argument. (And for some, "Polynesia" sometimes seems to be a vague term used to mean "all those little islands in the Pacific") I'm not a linguistic expert myself, but the dictionary says that Malay is a member of the Austronesian language family, a family also called Malayo-Polynesian. (Austronesia = Indonesia + Melanesia + Micronesia + Polynesia)
re #50: is malay related to chinese in anyway? its script for example? Not that I know of. But I remember when I was in school studying history , the was a mention about ppl from IndoChina(?) coming to Peninsular Malaysia and that somehow had an impact on the origin of Malay ppl. Then again I could be wrong. That was a long time ago. As far as I can tell, you can find Malay speaking ppl ( or language quite similar to that ) in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei,Christmas Island ( I read an article about this few months ago) and somewhere in the southern part of Africa!. Even I was surprise when I heard this. Certain words in Malay language comes from the Arabic and Sanskrit. And nowadays many words in English have been adopted as Malay language. This is very true in IT world where it is simply impossible to find the meaning in Malay. e.g Information - Informasi ( notice the different spelling ). Hope this will help to understand a little bit about Malay language.
isn't "amok" (as in "running amok") a malayan word adapted in english?
yes, that's true.
how do you say "goodbye"/"see you again" in malay?
Goodbye - Selamat Tinggal See you Again - Jumpa lagi
do you happen to know the *literal* meaning of "goodbye" in Malay?--In English, it's derived from "god be with you". Selamat looks *close* to salaam--peace. Yes?
does "salaam" mean "peace"? i thought it was a greeting.
re #57 Hmm..., let's see Selamat - safe Tinggal - leave, in this context it means the one that we part with/left When someone say Selamat Tinggal- she/he is actually wishing that the person she/he said that to, will be in safe condition until they meet again. It's close to saying something like ' peace be with you ' So, you' correct in saying that. Does this help ?
Re 58: It is, of course, but why do you think "peace" can't be a greeting? In any case, that's its basic meaning.
Yenny- thanks. Cool. In Irish, when you leave someone, you say "Slan agat"--literally "health at you" and the person you are leaving says to the one going away, "Slan leat"--literally" health with you". Similar, I think. Hello, I gather, is a word constructed specifically for use on the telephone. Before that, people used more complicated or specific greetings if I recall.
'salaamat' -> safety/safe in Hindi/Urdu and hence most probabaly in Arabic and Persian as well. In Sanskrit/Hindi, the standard greeting is "Namaste'", which literally means "(I) bow to you"
That's lovely.
Let me get carried away :-) "khemon acchen?" -- "How are you?" in Bengali "kemiti accho?" -- The same in Oriya. Bengali & Oriya are Indian languages. The former is spoken in the state of West Bengal and the latter, in Orissa.
http://www.travlang.com/languages/ This site provides a way for you to learn new words in other languages. Wouldn't it be totally cool to be able to say a greeting in say 10 or 15 languages <g>. re #62 : WOW!. Now, doesn't that make a person feel very important or what? .
Just FWIW, in Tagalog (Filipino) "salamat" (suh-LAA-mot) means "thank you!"
Back in 58 atticus asked about salaam. It is "peace", and used as either "hello" or "goodbye" in Arabic. Arabic is a semitic language very closely related to Hebrew. In Hebrew the word is "shalom" and all the same meanings apply. While I know that these are related, I cannot say if they are also related to "selamat". It's possible, I think.
re #67 Yes it is, since some words in Malay are taken from Arabic. Which reminds me, a word in english 'kitten' is pronounced almost the same in Arabic and I believe it gives the same meaning. Interesting isn't it?
Is it a loan word, or just a coincidence?
not sure about that, could be just coincidence.
Gong Xi Fa Cai! That's Mandarin (Chinese) for "Happy Chinese New Year!" (gong shee fat chy) Starting today is the year of the Tiger. For some interesting info about that you can browse my file /a/a/l/albaugh/public/yotiger.txt (I'll also make it accessible via the web) or visit URL http://members.tripod.com/~gb7337/page-8.html
heah i am new guy herer... have a nice time see ya...
Hi ghanshyam, are you from India? I am guessing from the gh in your name, somewhere else we had a discussion of how it is pronounced in India.
re #75: We had the discussion, Sindi. ('ghost' etc if you remember) How
do you pronounce the 'gh' in 'ghoul'? Is it any different from that in
'ghost'?
Not as I say it. I've never heard either one pronounced such that the "h" made any difference.
Yeah, they're really just pronounced 'gost' and 'gool' as far as I've heard them.
I wonder if ghanshyam will be back. There seem to be a lot of people from India who say hello once and we never hear from them again.
Actually, the bbs interface is quite confusing for a first timer, especially if they don't know much about Unix, and more so if they are connected through a low-speed line which is shared by some 100 people at the same time. I know the feeling. When I invoked 'bbs' for the first time on Grex, I was confused too. I used to lose my connection when there was a lot of data being pumped to my terminal (lots of new responses). What brought me back to the conferences is this wonderful, wonderful thing called BackTalk (Thank you, Steve and Jan). What I have noticed is whenever a first-timer posts something, a lot of people respond with "It gets easier" responses. But I suspect in 99% of the time, the person never comes back to read these responses. What we can do is write a brief, but easy-to-follow instructions for a first-time user (one-who-has-already-been-into-the-conference-once-,-got scared-and-not-planning-to-return type) to explain how to come back a second time and view the responses to his/her posting. We will keep them in a file and *mail* it to the person who made a first time posting (Mail is understood by everyone, as opposed to bbs). We can do it on an experimental basis and then see how many people make a second time appearance. One pertinent question whether we really want to do this. I volunteer to make a small document about BackTalk as I understand it. "Ghanshyam" means "deep black", literally. And most probably our Ghanshyam is a guy with fair or wheatish complexion :-)
Sreeni, how many people actually read their e-mail after posting one time on grex? I sent what I hoped was helpful e-mail to about ten, with no responses. Perhaps they will be more likely to respond to someone from the same country?
One might ask why many users post just once in the conferences, and then are never heard from again. Of course, I would think they would be more likely to read their e-mail than to reread a conference (likely not even knowing what they did, where). On the other hand, maybe they don't know how to read e-mail, though it seems strange your run of unresponsiveness.
Hi somebody are here???
I am here, but only one person can be 'here' at a time, you can ask a question and have it answered by the next person who comes along. Are you Spanish speaking? I think there is a Spanish language item in this conference.
I am here too ;-)
I'm here sometimes too.
Hi Catriona, it is not very crowded on grex this evening.
With the net link down, of course not.
hola!!!!!!! alguien quiere hablar en eap;ol Espa;ol
Si! Hay "item" para discutir sobre o en espanol, tambien. Buenvenido a Grex
Hi everyone....I am from INDIA...
Is here anybody in this room ???????
Um, this isn't a real-time chat.
To the lang cf's fws: You may wish to link fall agora's item #97 to this cf.
I'm from Italy. I'd like to improve my bad English. Is there anyone so kind to help me?? I could help you to improve your Italian. Thank You!
Your English is not at all bad. The only small thing I would change is 'so kind as to help me' (an idiom) and use one ? not two. I wish I had some Italian to improve. Non comprendo italiano. Come va?
Ciao! Also "sempre avanti" (I learned that from a woman I gave a ride to on the back of my motorcycle in Rome - I knew no Italian and she knew no English, but we had an enjoyable day pointing at things and laughing).
Sindi thank you for the help. I would change "Non capisco l'italiano" that also sounds better than "Non comprendo italiano". I wonder how I could learn "idiomatic" expressions which are (for me) a great obstacle...because I can't translate it. I don't understand expressions like "gonna" or "gotta"...what's mean? it's slang? Rane..."sempre avanti"...."go still forward"...I think it's the translation..it's only used to give informations to seek a street, place etc. Thank you!
'gonna' and 'gotta' are slang -- they are informal contractions of "going to" and "got to".
(....which are themselves a little slangy. "I am going to" means "I will," and "I have got to" means "I need to.")
I am going to, according to my neighbor who teaches English, implies intention or plan. It cannot be used everywhere. 'I'll see you tomorrow' is correct, but 'I am going to see you' is not correct. 'It's going to rain' is correct, but nobody says 'It will rain tomorrow'. I cannot figure out the rules behind which to use when. 'I'm going to eat breakfast now' 'Breakfast will be ready in a few minutes'.
"I'm going to see <so-and-so> tomorrow" is quite correct. I think many people say "It will rain tomorrow", though often within a longer sentence, such as "I think it'll rain tomorrow".
I was just going to say that *I* say (rarely but with no linguistic pain) "It will rain tomorrow." Being the worrier that I am, I normally hedge, but that's just because I hate to make a flat statement like that when I can't be absolutely sure.
Re #96: right - she was directing me to her apartment.
I think, as a Spanish user from Argentina, that the English is a good language but I like the Spanish because is more expresivve... When you are trying to say something that you do or feel (for example) many times you cant say it because there`s no words for that in English.. That`s what I think!...
Perhaps if you grew up speaking English you would be able to find the proper words. What type of subject can you not talk about in English?
Heh. My Hebrew teacher (years ago), a native Israeli, complained that English had too many words - specifically, too many words "for the same thing". An example that comes to mind was "silly", "funny", "crazy", & a couple of other (approximate) synonyms that slip my mind.
I seem to remember seeing statistics that showed that English really does have more words than most other languages. I believe the measure they used was the number of words in an average adult's working vocabulary. The explanation given in the article was that English tends to have a lot of near-synonyms. I'll try to find the source for this.
No, not really. English is just the kind of language (called "analytic" --
Chinese is another example) that has to have separate words for everything,
instead of using morphology to modify old or create new words on the spot
that everybody understands.
That's part of why English always comes up high in "number of words" -- it
doesn't recycle its roots. So you have to learn "chair" and "couch"
instead of just using "silla" and "sillon".
Another reason is that English has ranked doublets or triplets in many
areas -- Germanic guts vs Latin intestines; Germanic foot-fall vs Latin
ped-estrian vs Greek pod-iatrist; English one-horn, Latin uni-corn, Greek
mono-ceros; Gmc swine vs Fr pork, Gmc cow vs Fr beef, Gmc calf vs Fr veal,
Gmc sheep vs Fr mutton; etc. These either mean something different
(animal vs meat, for instance) or are appropriate in different registers
("guts" vs "intestines", for instance).
In a language at the other end of the typological spectrum
(Synthetic --- Analytic)
like West Greenlandic Eskimo, there aren't even words to count.
In a *really* synthetic language like Eskimo, there's no difference
between a word and a sentence. Everything is done by inflection, endings,
paradigms, applied to a lot of roots. A single word in Eskimo can mean
"Don't you think you really ought to consider going down to Inuvit this
winter?" It's all done by hitching endings and paradigms to a particular
root with a very abstract meaning, at the same time paring it down
semantically and elaborating it in a number of referential dimensions.
Finally, English is by far the best-studied and most thoroughly
lexicologized language in the world. That means that we have such
resources as the Oxford English Dictionary and the American Heritage
Unabridged Dictionary, so we have much more of our vocabulary, even
passing nonce forms, written down for later study. That makes a *big*
difference.
Anyway, the moral of this story is that "number of words" is not a good
measure of anything about a natural language except what kind of language
it is. Since English is at one end of the spectrum, descriptions tend to
favor English. But you shouldn't take them seriously unless they specify
their criteria for different wordhood and their data source (British
National Corpus vs Oxford English Dictionary, for instance).
Just this once, my first response here, I'll use my Usenet .sig
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." 'Language'
Hi, John. Nice to see you again. :)
Thanks, Joe. And hello to lots of other old friends. I'm hoping to be able to use conferencing in my classes again, but that's another matter.
yeah, it is. :(
Hi all, this is a nice conference
You have several choices: