There are many practicing Medicine People still around who do not speak of
politics. They are hard to find but for those who wish to work hard and
show that they honestly desire to live in the old ways, the teachers appear.
They wait until you are ready. There are many things about the old spiritual
ways that can badly screw up your life. As the old people say "The road to
being one who speaks to the spirits is littered with the bodies of many who
have tried." If we as people with western minds truely wish to learn to walk
the Red Road, then we must first go back to basics. As children, we learned
many things that can prevent us from looking at things in a good way, in a
way that will let us walk that road. Life does not move in a straight line.
Life moves in circles, the trees grow in circles, the wind in it's strongest
form moves in circles. The seasons - everything is circles. We're taught to
think in straight lines, which is not a natual way. We may think so, but it
is a cultural symptom of western minds. The reason that so little is found
in the books is because the books are straight lines. Circles and Circles.

61 responses total.

This entry was in response to #57 Native American discussions and should have
been entered as a response. However, since everything happens for a reason
(in this case, my novice experience on this system!) a new entry may invite
new discussion.

Thanks, Johnny

Thanks for opening this item.  I think the discussion can go in two ways;
Native American specific, or looking at closed vs. relatively open traditions,
continuous vs. "neo", etc.  My preference is "all of the above".

I am learning about Native spiritual practice myself and would be
intersted in discussion of the medicene wheel.  Basically the medicene
wheel is a circle with four spokes representing the four directions: red
is the east and the begining of visions, yellow is the south and reprents
growth of plants, winged beings, four leggeds, and two leggeds, black is
the west and the realm of the thunder being and represents maturing of
visions, white is the north representing renewal and wisdom of the elders. 
The wheel is oriented with white facing up to the north.  The four colors
also represent the four nations of the world Red, Anglo, Asian, & African. 
The medicene wheel represents the coming together of the people which is
very inportant in this age of fragmentation.  This is a basic outline I
would discussion and fleshing out of this outline either here or in
e-mail.

errr would welcome discussion that is...

Thanks, Raven.  Good to hear from you.  I wonder how old is the attribution
of the four directions to the 4 races.  I find the animal attributions and
their varieous traits really interesting.  Is that specifically Hopi, do you
know? What tradition are you studying?  From what source?  Hre's a comparison:
the Celts (specifically theIrish, I don't know the others as well) also used a
circle-cross, perticularly as a solar whieel.  Being a symbol of balance, I
would think it has healing uses, although the holed-stones were more common for
that.  But anyway, one may assign colors to the four directions or  provinces
thus: yellow or maybe green in the East, the seat of  bounty, or agriculture
and crasftsmanship.  White in the south, the seat of song, wisdom, lore.  Black
in the West, the direction of magic and the Otherworld, and Red in the North,
the seat of battles.  The person standing at the center puts the East before
them.  Interesting how similar it is, and yet a few directions are moved
around.

Welcome, raven. I would enjoy sharing the wheel that I have been working with.
I have worked from a variety of traditions and sources, basically arriving
at a wheel that reflects the understandings that I have. I would be willing
to outline the aspects and attributes as well. I find that as a mirror, the
wheel helps me to see where I am in the journey of life. 
        The oldest attribution of the colors representing the races that I have
come across is the Australian Aboriginees use of these colors. They are the
only race of people in the world that can have blond haired, blue eyed
children as well as brown eyed, black skinned children. They also have the
reflective coating on the back of their eyes to see better at night. There
eyes reflect like animals at night in light. This is another genitically
unique trait. They tell of a story of the five races coming out of dream time.
I believe they have been around for about four hundred thousand years.
        At any rate, what were some of your ideas about sharing the medicine
wheel? I like to here them.

        Sunset, sunrise.  Winter, summer.   East, west.  North, south. 
Understanding those things has helped me follow the medicine wheel.

Raven -- have you read any of Sun Bear's books?  I think you would enjoy them
immensely, and I believe he has one on Medicine Wheels.  I think it's called
"Dreaming with the Wheel", but don't quote me on that.

The man I am studying with is Apache by blood but most of his
understandings are Iraqois, Mohawk, & Lakota.  I will ask which tradation
red in the east comes from when I next speak with him. He has mentioned
that some other tradations have yellow in the east, and blue in the west. 
As for the understanding about the four nations that may be relatively
recent (last 20 years????)  again I have to ask to be sure. 

In terms of sharing the medicene wheel I mean getting discussion like this
started about different tradations and their understandings, personel
understandings, etc.  I know there are medicene wheel gatherings as well
but I have not been to one yet.

The info about the Celtic medicene wheel is very interesting to me, he
mentioned that the Celts had an understanding of the medicene wheel but
wasn't very specific about it.  Anyway lets keep this discussion going.
 

# 8 sliped in  No I haven't read any.  I would be interested to hear about his
teachings though.  For now my teacher says I shouldn't read a lot about
intertations of the wheel, ceremony etc, he says I need to experience many
ceremonies first before I start interpreting & abstracting.  His teaching says
that ceremony & the wheel are best understood through the heart and experience.
BTW birdlady don't take this as a brushoff I would like to hear more about what
the wheel means to you.

Your teacher's right.

RE#10 You decied if your teacher is right. Sometimes the only elder around
is one that speaks to me through the talking leaves. Native Spirituality is
not a cerebral thing, it is the language of the heart.

I use different colors at different times in my wheel. Mainly, that is because
is use them in conjuction with the Na Num Ah, the coming together ceremony,
or the "sweat lodge". Different colors for different intents. However, with
using my personnal wheel, The main attributes are below:

East            South           West            North
---------------------------------------------------------------
Red             Yellow          Black           White           personnal
Yellow          Red             Blue            White           perification
Yellow          Green           

More on the wheel.....what happened to the native conf, btw?
I will enter more on the medicine wheel, later, thanks. But first, what
happened to the native conferance?

re: different colors for different intent-- That's interesting.  In Wiccan
training, using the classical 4 element construct as a basis, each element/ 
direction has a color commonly associated with it, but a range of relevant
colors depending on aspect, and beyond that again, there are colors for
mixtures of elements such as "air of fire" or "air of earth", etc.  An 
immense rainbow of gradations...

Raven -- In no way did I take that as a brush-off.  =)  I understand because
I also have a teacher.  In his view, if I read something, it's cool, but I
always ask him questions about it and ask him to interpret things.  I haven't
read that much on Medicine Wheels, but the subject sounds interesting.  

Very interesting and helpful in life I might add.... does any one know what
happened to the native conf?

Ummm I don't think there was ever a native conf, but it sounds like a cool
idea, you can go propose it in the coop conf.  There is a native item in
this conf which I think is # 37 if I remember right.

Make that item 59.

I too work/ed with raven's teacher, but he and I have not been communciating
lately.  I may be looking for a new teacher, hopefully female.  it's nothing
personal...it just seems that there are some things I have missed from
working from a male tacher.  (i noticed this once when I went to a sweat lodge
hosted by a friend of my teacher, and I was on my moon.  he'd never told me
that you wern't supposed to go in when that was happening, as the host herself
told me, and aparently I wasn't even supposed to be at the gathering before
either, but I'd never been told)

Thre are definite differences in energy and it's good to work with both men and
women.  It sounds like it's time for you to work with women, now.  But don't
forget that women have blind spots, too.  ;)

Re#20...I have a difficult time working with women usualy, so I am rather
egalitarian in noticing blind-spots.  :-) x 1/2
(if anything, i been somewhat misogynistic without realising it... will the
ironies ever cease?)

        I have the same problems working with gay same-genderists as I do
with straight opposite-genderists;  namely that they seem to be confusing
their reproductive drive for significance.  THey're not fun to be around.

Jazz, I like the way you framed that; for a lot of folks looking at the trad
wiccan community, they get hung up in the apparant heterosexism, or some folks
wanting to buy into that community make the same mistake.  It's not about who
you, as an individual, choose to sleep with, tha'ts your own expression of
"all acts of love and pleasure".  But when the core "sacriment" of your
religion is an expression of creation, of first spark and primodial sea, it
sort of takes a seed and a fertile medium, a sperm and an egg, for that to
happen, hence the *appearance* of heterosexism in some wiccan/pagan ritual.
No excuse for prejudice!!! People sleep with people, not genders.

And some of us don't even sleep with people.  >8)

Creation is *a* core sacrament of every religion, more or less.
Wicca also emphasizes balance, though, and other things... it isn't *just*
the creation myth that's heterosexist.
There is not anywhere near enough emphasis on the *internal* feminine and the
*internal* masculine in the neopagan and new age community/ies. Witness my
own problem with forming a men's sexuality group in the Grove that was not
closed to women. I was told, fairly resoundingly, that women can't understand
what it's like to be a man, and vice versa. My own beliefs were at times
mocked and at other times simply peripheralized in favor of heterosexist and
sexist values of "anatomy dictates personality." Two of the loudest voices
were bisexual!

        That's a very good point Kami, but I'm afraid I was shooting for a 
somewhat more base point - that genderists tend to confuse their own feelings
of sexual attraction for a gender for that gender having more significance.
It's usually rationalized away.

Brighn- Thank you.  You are right that the *inner* balance is one of the
"inner works" that not enough people are aware of.
As to a men's group being open to women, not sure.  I think the issue 
there is much the same as the issue with a women's group; feeling safe to
taks and be more deeply honest or vulnerable than usual.  I'm not
sure that bisexuality is relevant to this issue, although transgendered
folks might have legitimate claim to a deep compassion for both genders.
In creating or discoverring mysteries, I don't think it is about "anatomy
dictating personality", but I'm not sure how to articulate more clearly
what might be the compelling need for same-sex space. Oh well, I just ran 
out of coherent thoughts...:{

Funny, whenever I ask folks why a men's group shouldn't be open,
their brains seem to stop working coherently.  >8)

Seriously, I haven't yet heard an argument that made any sense.
One Grove member hinted that men's groups consisted of men
touching each other to develop trust.  My response is that I
have no problem with a woman seeing a man touch me.  So what's
the problem?  Am I the sociopath yet again?

I've never understood those who say that the personality traits or energy or
whatever usually considered 'male' are restricted to men and vice versa.  I
see some point in men-only male groups, but this is a different issue.

        Heh, I'd like to introduce them to the ElderDykes.

"ElderDykes"?  This sounds like a group.  Could you explain?

Rob, there IS no coherent argument to gender groups being closed to MOTOS
EXCEPT "anatomy dictates personality," hence the inability for anyone to come
up with a choerent argument.

Ah, so their genitalia are once again doing the thinking?  >8)
(Obviously it's not a post-pubescent thing, either - note the
many young boys who form clubs and then put up the cute little
signs that say "NO GIRLS ALLOWED"...)

        No, there ARE other coherent reasons.  Like comfort, which is the
reason we have gender-seperated restrooms, and cultural standards.  The
question is, if you're going to abandon previous cultural standards, do you
want to do away with sexism at the same time, or not?

Why do we have gender-separated restrooms? 
So men and women won't be exposing their genitalia in each other's presence.
Relevance to men/women's groups? None that I see.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence ("The question is...") at
all. Rephrase your point. It's, um, incoherent (refer to Rob's and my previous
posts).

And I'm honestly not sure I'd have a problem with non-gender-
segregated restrooms.  Now that I think of it, we had them at
the co-op I lived in at college, and we had no problems.

Well, I can see the point.  I don't have a reason, I just can.  (and I don't
have problems with non-segragated restrooms, either) SO I don't have a valid
reason.  So it makes no sense.  <font shoots herself, so others will not have
to be a scape-goat>  
(for those who are paranoid, I am *not* suescidal, it's only an ascii
shooting.  No fonts were harmed in this rebuttal)

Nobody's saying there isn't a point.
We're just saying there isn'ta  coherent, logical point.
There's obviously an illogical point (unless there's a logical point), since
there's obviously a point.

I do understand the comfort issue, though, although I'm not sure whether I
agree with it.  Because of the way our culture raises boys, males in general
seem to have trouble communicating with females...

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss