O.k., time to bitch, if a bit belated.  Last year the President signed the
Religious Freedoms Restorations Act.  Now, according to the 3/14/95 Detroit
News, our beloved King John (er, I mean Gov. Engler) wants to exempt prisoners
from the Act.
I dunno how serious he is, but the article included a reference
to the Witches International Coven Church of America (W.I.C.C.A.)...
sound familiar?  It should, it's only a few words off from the infamous
and nefarious Witches International Coven Council Association, which 
supposedly came out of Mexico (and of course didn't exist).  *sigh*
I have been asked to ask if anyone out there has heard of the WICCA,
although I doubt it exists.
Anyone who wants to storm the Capitol, let me know.  :)
(And, Mr. Truscott, that was a joke!  We will peacefully protest if anything.)

Even if no-one's heard of WICCA, feel free to vent invectives.  :)

50 responses total.

Sigh, what did you expect.  And the STATES are now supposed to administer
aid to the needy. Right.  Shit.

Engler needs a sulphuric-acid enema NOW!

(Mr. Truscott, btw, is Engler's press secretary or something like that...)

what ever happened to the bill of rights?

        Oh, didn't you hear? It's obsolete, now, according to the new
republicans! 

don't you just wnat to kill them all?

hey, you know, i'm sure that wouldn't be considered bad if we were to somehow
well...magic them out of existance, now would it?  i mean, they aren't alive
or anything...:)

        It's worth a shot..

Hey let's not associate all republicans with wanting to take away religious
freedom. It's not fair. Or as wanting to take away rights. I don't like
the Democrats point of view, but individually they are as much entittled 
to their opinion as I am.

        Fine, but let's not DIS associate them either! The Christian
Collition has yet to support ONE Democrat, and supports multitudes of
Republicans! I'd rather get rid of the Collition, but, as that's not gonna
happen <Moral Majority, all over again>, let's at least get their puppets
out of office!

Certainly, not all republicans are bible waving, bigoted, fundamentalists, but
the newt world order embraces, in its back to conservatism ideal, such diverse
themes as pulling the plug on education, art, in this country (after all, who
needs culture?  We have computers!) english only, prayer in school, and a
certain amount of racial and religious bigotry.  This is not tarring all 
Republicans with the same brush, just thoe core of those under Gingritch.

Listen..the way to change things is not to bash christians, or to say 
that they are the problem. You are no better trhan them if you do that.
The major theme of the republican contract is that government is too
large. This country was created in the belief that big government was too
corruptable. Do you or do you not find this government wasteful, and 
corrupt? Because republicans believe government should not be so big, they
are trying to return to the original ideal. By placing the power back in the
hands of the state. Don't you think someone who lives in our state 
understands it's problems better than some guy who lives half the country
away in washington? We want to change things don't we?  Isn't the religion
most of you support based with an ideal of peace, and freedom?
Then why use angry words?! It seems to contradict what you believe. To quote
a christian ...turn the other cheek.  Listen I've gone on forever, and I
apologize for the lecture like quality. However, I am tired of 
people condemning without trying to understand first.
And if you really have researched this and still believe what you do,
you have my undying respect, and my curiosity, because I would like to
understand.

I'm sorry I can't turn the other cheek, I'm not a martyr.
Let me get back to you an republican activities <oh i sound like an
intelligence agensy :) > i have to print the info out from another system.

This is partly my point, Sera, I did say people should vent.  But
the venting has gotten a bit out of hand... "magic them out of existence"?
Joke, yes.  And wouldn't certain fundamentalist folk just love to see it,
too?  THEY wouldn't take it as a joke:  they would take it as evidence
that we're all out to get them.  (Not to pick on Meg, quite a few of you
have said some naughty things.)

Thanks for the reality check, Sera.  On the other hand, when groups are
actively acting to strip us of our religious rights, we have the right to
resist.  We do not have the right to wish harm on them... thought becomes
form, after all.  My point in creating this item was to point out that our
own rights are being trodden upon, yet again.  So... what do we do about
it?  The individual who issued the statements re:  WICCA and witchcraft
is, I'm told, currently being investigated for an information release
and misrepresentation felony.  The national government, at least, is
sticking to its stance.  This culture is *not* controlled by the 
fundamentalists, it's controlled by the atheist and agnostic media 
and intelligentia who want to ridicule *anybody* who has faith.  
But the Religious Right does have a history of attacking and limiting
the rights of other religions while fighting for their own... sobeit.
That's their problem.  << Off of soapbox. >>

(I haven't gone on a tirade for a while, but since this is my item, 
I have the right.  :)

WICCA, not surprisingly, has not turned up, and several reliable
sources have been checked.  The journalist has been informed of the
lack of evidence (which isn't proof, of course, that they don't exist,
but considering how upset certain feds are with the Head of Michigan
Corrections...) and how he shouldn't be so glib about a serious religion
in the future (I informed him myself, in fact :) ! -- It's useful living
three blocks form the capitol sometimes.)  He has also been handed a copy 
of Kerr Cuhulain's Law Enforcement Guide to Wicca, which I should 
recommend to anybody for giving to friends and family with short 
attention spans.  There... activism done.  *deep breath*  I feel
SO much better.

Hmmm... I had assumed by reading the subject heading that this item was
concerning prisoner's rights. I see the item has mutated into the rights of
all... Hmmm...
   Well, I agree with sera on one point, being the fact that bashing the
Catholics isn't helping any. Is everything in the world truly their fault? It's
fun to have a scape goat, but sometimes things can go too far... Let's try to
keep our anger and viciousness under control and direct it towards those who
deserve it, not innocents...
   As for researching an opinion...I can understand the point here, but through
my life I have watched the monkeys in Washington and I realized that neither
the republicans nor the democrats are right for me. I don't have to do any
intense reading or watch a million news programs to figure this out. They both
are going to do things which aren't going to make me happy and they both do 
things which are cool. *Ideal? how about a merging of both parties?!;)*
   As for rights and prisoners' rights....I think Brighn is on the right track
here. We need to defend these people. So they killed someone, perhaps. So they
have committed crimes too horrible to imagine? I still believe in my heart they
should not be denied their right to practice their faith. *Is this what you
intended for discussion, Brighn?*
   As for 'WICCA', as far as *I* could find out, using my contacts in R
Rhode Island and California, I could find NOTHING. Me thinks this little news
person made it up...In which case I feel the need to write a letter. No wonder
Wiccans receive such wonderful receptions...With news people making things up
such as 'WICCA'.....
*sigh*
   Well, that was my $1.50 worth. ;)

Has anybody written to the WPPA (Wiccan Pagan Press Alliance)?
Silver Ravenwolf's publication keeps people informed of problems such as these.
She's a very nice woman, and famous for her letter campaigns. I'm sure if
this is such a big problem (since I don't know much about it, I can't be 
sure) she can muster significant force. Defending Rights is one thing I do
support (in a peaceful non bashing manner of course).

  It has been my impression that the WPPA handles problems concerning the
publications which belong to it and roadblocks they may run into during the
distribution process. I would think the proper one to contact would be WARD,
(Witches Against Religious Descrimination). Last I heard, Joyce Siegrist had
taken ill and had relinquished WARD to someone while she recovered. If anyone
is interested in receiving information concerning WARD *or WPPA in fact* I
would be happy to compile it and send it via E-mail.
   I agree that rights should be defended in a peaceful non-bashing manner...

The person who referred to WICCA was not the journalist but rather McGinnis,
the director of the Department of Corrections.  I have spoken to a pagan-
friendly telejournalist in Grand Rapids who discussed the issue with John
Truscott this week.  According to Andy Cordane (sp.?), who works for a
network affiliate in GR, Engler's administration intends to do anything
possible to limit PRISONER'S rights when they are practicing "fringe
religions" (a term allegedly used by Truscott; Andy asked if that included
Wicca, and Truscott assented).  IT was my sense and Andy's (but not that of
Rev. Muscato, who is the one who contacted me) that the issue is money and
resources, not religion:  the system gets too bogged down investigating 
prisoner's claims on religious legitmacy.  However, it bothers me that 
"fringe religions" are being singled out:  the further inferrence that Andy
made was that JudeoChristian and Islamic (main sect) rights would not be
affected.
I have also discussed this with Oberon, for those of you who know him.
He and I have decided the best course for right now is to be cautious.
Anybody who wants to right a letter to the Governor's Office is encouraged 
to do so:  the points in this itema are as factually as I could make them.
McGinnis, according to Muscato, is also being investiagted for releasing
fraudulent information to the media (in re: WICCA).
And, as I think I've said before, the feds don't seem to be taking Engler
and co. seriously, and religion is a federal issue, not a state one.
(I don't think the WPPA has been contacted.  Selena Fox at Circle Sanctuary
has, and she's doing some investigatin as well.)

  Brighn, you'd have more luck contacting WARD...as I said, I think *I am NOT
sure* that WPPA deals mainly *Not solely* with problems concerning publication
and distribution. I would think WARD *Witches Against Religious Descrimination*
would be a good place to start.
   I am sad to see that money comes before human rights....But, I know it goes
on every day....

Smile! Selena is quite a wonder at these type things..with some many 
devoted people involved i'm sure it will resolve quickly.   oops! that's
so many...not some!   *blush*

 Ummm...Insanity, your response here has confused me...First off, who is       
 
Selena? Selena Brawens? Or are you referring to the lunar goddess Selene, or
someone else entirely?

No, I think she means Selena Fox, at Circle Sanctuary.  She is, indeed,
good at public interface especially with the legal system, and at mustering
lots of interested and involved people.

        Well, all i know is it's NOT me.
Catholicism owes the pagan community at least PEACE, now, for the atrocities
committed before. Until I see them giving that to us, I will do no less
than hate that faith.

All religions should give that to all other religions, if nothing else.

        Well, they haven't.

Haven't and should are two different things, Selena.  I'm agreeing with you.

        You are? <hug>

I see....Kami, Selena Fox is the woman we were speaking of last night...Hmmm.
Ah yes, I remember now....I was talking to someone else about it, too. Well,
Brighn, since you brought up this topic, *Morgayn is trying to get back to
the original discussion topic* perhaps you have some ideas as to how we can
prevent this?

Yes I was refereing to Selena Fox. As for Hating a religion...I don't see the
point. It seems to me that Catholicism doesn't even give it's own members 
peace, so why should I expect it to give it to me. Also, I probably hold these
views because I have no problem associating with any catholic I've ever met.
It's harder to hate someone you like, or respect. 

After 26 items, "this" has become diffuse... which this are you referring
to, Morgayn m'dear?

        Prisoners rights, brighn. <slap-slap-slap>
Hey, 'till they give us that peace, I don't respect em. That's all there is
to it.

Oh, that.  Right.  :)
I suppose what you should do about it depends on your stance.  Engler's
official stance on it is to end the abuse of religion to get special
*costly* rights for prisoners (one religion in the West, for instance,
insists on steak and wine with lunch, but there is no corollary to this
religion outside the prison system).  I agree that religious rights 
should be denied if it creates undue burden on the system -- hee, hee,
what's "undue burden", though?  It's hard to tell what the actual 
stance is, but it's clear that the DOC person wants to end *all*
prisoner's religious rights (except JudeoChristian).
Write the governor -- about all that can be done right now.

I was having a chat with this w/amoco a while ago....seems some prison
system said, in effect, that the only day prisoners sentenced to hard 
labor get off is sunday, no matter what their religion's "sabbath equivalent"
is...

  Make 'em work seven days a week...no preferential treatment there!
Seriously though, if they're sentenced to hard labor, they're going to
lose a lot of freedoms.  If people are given days off according to their
religion, the problem in #31 would sprout up ("Sorry, says right here,
'thou shalt not work on days containing the letter D.'")  A non-Sunday
arbitrary day would be less biased, but why do it?  Sunday pleases the
most people, and is how most of our society operates regardless of
religion (e.g. most non-religious schools give weekends off, most offices
and banks are closed on Sunday, etc.).  It's convenient to have a single
common day (or two) of non-work.

Fine, so make it friday, or wedensday..

Most businesses are closed Sunday for socially embedded religious reasons.
Whether they recognize it or not.

        That's only for lack of people coming in to shop.. and more and more
places are going 7-days a week, or even 24-hours a day!

Hmmm, hadn't thought about that.  Good point, Selena.

        Thank you. So, if they made the day off friday, no one would be
the worse off, right?

  Like I said, if it's agreed a common day off is needed, I think
Sunday makes the most sense, because most people would prefer it.
Additionally, I bet the union guards get double pay on Sundays.
Though personally, if I were in a prison, it certainly wouldn't
make a difference to me what day it was (well, unless Wednesday
was shower day or something :-).
 
  Businesses that are open seven days a week pay more money to stay
open every day - they make it back because customers shop there on
every day.  Prisons working folks seven days a week would pay more,
but not make it back (I'm guessing, anyway).

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss