I thought people would be interested in this - the FAQ on
Wicca for soc.religion.christian.


Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman)
Subject: FAQ: Wicca and the occult
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1993 02:30:00 GMT
Lines: 152


 1...What is Wicca?
 2...What is its view of christianity
 3...How organized is it?
 4...Is it in our communities?
 5...How is it related to Christianity (is it?)
 6...What about satanic rituals (Do they engage in them?)
 7...Sex Magick (Does anybody really believe in it?)
 8...How do I witness to a 'wiccan'.
 9...What sacrificial tools (if any) do they use?
10...Is it okay to experiment with Wicca?

 What is Wicca?
    Wicca is a pagan religion that predates judaism by centuries.
It primarily focuses on nature and the forces that run nature.  There
is a primary belief that Magick is just the force which makes everything
hang where its supposed to and that manipulating it is natural (indeed they
believe that to not manipulate it is unnatural).  Wicca sometimes employs
the use of a God AND Godess because it shows the balance of nature and
not just the male angle of it (although in christianity it is widly recognized
that God has both 'male' and 'female' characteristics(warrior,nurturer etc))
The belief in these Gods in more just symbolic than actually believing that 
they exist as real persons. Imagery is usually everything in this religion
and so most rituals in this religion are made bizarre by the exxageration
of imagery.

 What is its view of christianity?
    Wiccan people are as much into 'their' history as we are to ours.
They are not quick to forget the slaughter of hundreds even thousands of
pagans and suspected pagans by supposed christians.  Although most respect
Christ as a man of great teachings (but just a man) few really respect the
church of Christ .  They see all to clearly the bickering and backstabbing
that goes on in supposedly christian sects and to put it mildly think we
are idiots at times.
    It is important to note that it is from such things as sexual assaults
by church members, extreme and harsh judgement by christian radicals, and
a general misunderstanding of Christ's character arises Wiccans even 
Satanists (although I strongly hesitate to compare the two).

 How organized is it?
      Wicca has always been a 'make it up as you go' religion. Although some
covens do actually have time honored values and rituals, Wicca has never been
a completely organized religion with a central belief like a bible etc.
  Wicca organization is further hindered by the fact that most of their
peoples were wiped out in the height of their organization .  Much in the
way of history and rituals was lost (which may make christians happy but 
is far more harmful to Christ's cause than to theirs).
  Wiccan covens are on a rise but there is not a great amount of organization 
just yet although wiccans are pressing very much towards this end.

 Is it in our communities?
 In a word YES. I have absolutely no doubt that it is in every neighborhood
in america. Dont worry, wiccans are not out to 'take over the world' and
most could care less what religion you are ,let alone waste their time with
trying to change your mind.  The only thing that makes this dangerous is that
it is widespread and when someone strays from the church it is an easily found
outlet for the frustrations that sometimes builds up in the church.  As we all
know spiritual death is the real danger on earth.

  How related is it to Christianity?
     Much of christian ritual (Christmas, Halloween etc) is taken from pagan 
roots and made to be christian so that we could attract Wiccans to our church.
Mary was taken from a symbol of obedience to our lord and made to be the 
Christian "Godess". This is not to take any credit away from mary (surely the
mother of Jesus would need to be an exceptional servant to fufill Gods will).
Christmas for all of its glory to God was taken from a pagan ritual to
the Sun (Dec was when the sun was the furthest from the earth and it was 
believed that a ritual made it come back).  Wicca has many other similarities
in the worldly sense . Do unto others is equivalent to the threefold law
which says "whatever you do unto another will return to you threefold".
This might also reflect the sentiment "what you sow you shall reap".
Wiccans marvel at the wonder of creation and the value of it in the same
way any true christian would.  A true wiccan would tend to act in much the same
way as a true christian, with love compassion understanding and respect for all
the creations brought forth. The main difference (and for christians this must
not be minimized) is that wiccans do not believe in sin (as such) and do
not believe they need forgiveness other than to the person they wronged.
Without this realization even a belief in God will not bring them to the 
saving grace Jesus has provided for them. This does not make us better than
them, indeed we need to die to all pride and act in love, acceptance and prayer
BEFORE WE DO ANYTHING.

 What about Satanic rituals (do they enagage in them?)
       Wiccans mostly believe that Satan is something a guilty christian 
thought up as a scapegoat after he had sinned.  If Satan does exist he is
,to a wiccan, most probably bad karma returned to them for something they did
to someone else.
       So performing rituals to Satan would be as laughable to them as 
setting a trap for the tooth fairy would be to us. 
       Wiccans have a lot of rituals that are similar to 'Satanic' rituals
because when early satanists began to form actual covens they borrowed
rituals from the pagans (who better to borrow rituals from than the very
people the christians were trying to fight?).  But in respect to sacrifices
very few  wiccans do these, as it is contrary to their respect for nature to
do so.

 Sex magick (do they really believe in it?)
       There is a 'fertility' festival called beltain which is annually
celebrated. In the days of old, this was basically a massive orgy.  Todays
witch does not engage in this much at all because of the shaping of their
religion by christian ideals and the simple fact that being pagan doesnt
mean you are any more or less sexual than a christian.
     Some couples do attempt to gain 'energy' through sex because of the 
belief that there are only so many ways to bring up your adrenanline level
(which they believe increases magick energies), and making love is more
enjoyable and possibly less dangerous than some of the alternatives.
  
 How do i witness to a Wiccan?
       You have already taken the first step which is know what you 
are dealing with. The second is DO NOT try to change a wiccan. The church
has tried to change them their whole lives and it is quite possibly the
reason they turned to wicca to begin with. They will be VERY sensitive to 
this. Instead of trying to jam Jesus down their throats just talk.  Wiccans
are just as eager to share wicca with you as you are to share Jesus with them.
You will get a chance to further understand what they believe and will get a 
chance to share the beliefs you hold.  If you do not present everything with
"This is the way it is" and present it as "Thats interesting, here is how
I see that..." you will be pleasantly surprised at how much they will listen
AND you will not be written off as some closed minded moron, FURTHER you will
most likely be given more chances to share Jesus un the future. And pray,
above all pray. A wiccan could have 1001 bibles and have each version 
memorized and it wouldnt matter one bit if Jesus wasnt there to bring them 
to him. This isnt a fight to make them believe as you do this is a chance
to let Jesus do his miracle in their life. If Jesus isnt the reason for
you talking to them then who cares what religion they are.

 Sacrificial tools (do they use any?)
      In short NO. There are some that use them but they are in the minority.
There is a ceremonial sword called and ATHAME that is used for drawing lines
but if it is ever used to cut organic matter (like for cooking etc) it is
considered unfit to be used for such a ritual.

 Is it okay to experiment with wicca?
      Whats to experiment with? It is a philosophy not a toy. If you believe 
in it you do ,if you dont then consider yourself officially not wiccan.
The only things you could experiment with is the rituals, and there is a good
rule of thumb for this question. If it will take you away from God in any way
dont do it. To put it another way (and this may be a bit extreme) if it wont
bring you closer to God why are you doing it?

A FINAL NOTE:
Wiccans use a pentagram as their symbol. 
The star is right side up which symbolizes the spirit over the flesh (as 
opposed to the Satanists upside down or inverted star(flesh over the
spirit))
No symbol is evil in and of itself and should be treated as such.

-- 
MR SHANNON SALTZMAN *DISCLAIMER SEAL OF APPROVAL*
"Love believes all things,hopes all things,endures all things, Love never
fails" KJV 


Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wiccans
References: <30nhqk$8ap@geneva.rutgers.edu>
 
In <30nhqk$8ap@geneva.rutgers.edu> schennbe@ms.uky.edu (Richard
Schennberg) writes:
 
>An essential element in evaluating any religion is studying
>who founded it, and why.  I would appreciate if anyone could
>post details on the foundation of Gardnerian Wicca.
>A similar test should be applied to any religion or sect 
>before embracing or criticising it.
 
 Wicca was founded by the English civil servant and amateur anthropologist
 Gerald Gardner (1884-1964); he claimed he came into contact with a group
 of 'witches' and was initiated into Wicca by someone called "Old Dorothy"
 who, according to him, was continuing an unbroken line of pre-Christian
 nature religion. He says he just polished up and organized a bit the
 original rituals and teachings. The story is without much doubt mostly 
 (although perhaps not entirely) made up to give legitimacy to his own ideas.
 Wicca as gardner presented it was a mixup of western esoteric traditions
 (Golden Dawn, Masonry etc), Celtic and Germanic mythology and reconstructions
 of their religions ideas based on ancient written sources, surviving folk-
 lore, the theories of the anthropologist Margaret Murray, Charles Leland's
 _Aradia_, and so forth.
 
 Why he founded it? Probably just to present an alternative to straitjacket
 monotheism, may be in part inspired by an urge to break the norms of society
 a bit. Also, perhaps to reconstruct a more intimate relation between man and
 nature. But since he insisted that he's continuing an unbroken tradition
 this is just speculating.
 
 But I don't think any of this is very relevant in examining or 'evaluating'
 Wicca; certainly most Wiccans couldn't care less about how the religion
 started. It isn't a "revelationary" religion like the big world religions
 or most other neo-religions; Gardner has no special importance among Wiccans,
 he's given credit for starting things out, but he's not a prophet or a guru
 or anything like that, and his writings have little weight in how Wiccans
 view their religion. In any case, since Wicca isn't bound by dogmas, the
 religion has evolved a lot since Gardner's time and is in many ways a whole
 different religion (or a group of religions, actually); the emphasis on
 Goddess, for example, came after Gardner. It may be of some help to know
 how it started, but to evaluate Wicca based on what you know of Gardner
 would be totally misleading.
 
LVX,
-- 
Antti Lahelma           GNOTHI SEAUTON  "Tragedy is the farce that involves our
alahelma@cc.helsinki.fi  TUNNE ITSESI    sympathies:  farce is the tragedy that
University of Helsinki    KNOW THYSELF   happens to outsiders." --Aldous Huxley

45 responses total.

Where's the person who wrote this?  I want to shake his hand.
Well, I didn't like the "strategies for conversion" bit, which indicates 
that he still doesn't quite get it, but other than that and a few factual
errors (well, perhaps misunderstanding), a tolerably written piece
(ESPECIALLY compared to what I read last night in a very well-known 
anthropology textbook).
Thanks, Rob.

The author is listed at the beginning of the document
as Shannon Chris Saltzman (phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu)

Sadly, I expect a big part of this document's existence
is to help Christians "convert" Wiccans, the site I got
this from has plenty more file on such Satanic pursuits
as Dungeons and Dragons.  Hoo boy.

here's the way I look at it...and yes I'm speaking up...this is not an
Illusion as you may think...Yes it is a sad fact that it seems to be for
the purpose of conversion of religions...but I think people need to
realize once one person's path is chossen then that is RIGHT for
them...there is o one path...people can belive as they want but try not to
convert or judge another...what is the purpose of judging one but to only
ostacize the one you judge?...can anyone man say he has the right given by
anything to judge another...that is what we have to look at...no one man
does...but what we perceive of another may be wrong even the idels of one
or another may not ring true in the lives of the one trying to follow the
path...we are all human and we make mistakes in following the path we have
chosen to follow...That's all I have to say for now...

Justin, your input, especially when you are really thinking about it, is 
always welcome.  I think most paganfolk feel about the way you just described,
although being "only human", we don't always act appropriately.
Now, given that proceletyzing is a big part of many Xtian faiths, I'd much
rather see it in the terms of this article (that give me the opportunity to
choose their path if I need it or to leave it alone if my own belief is
sufficient) than in browbeating, threatening or "fire and brimstone" terms.

Brighn, I had seen this article before, in the Digest I believe, and reacted
about as you did- wish more of our own work was as clear.

Proceletyzing is a word I'll hate to hear forever.  It makes me laugh.
I couldn't convert you if I sang the gospel to you night and day.
Big mistake, even with Christians, is that they think the purpose of witnessing
is to convert people.  God 'converts'.  Man witnesses.  all witnessing is is
telling others about your experiences.  Tell me that pagans don't do that
themselves.

Ok... I know I'll get flamed, probably, over that... but oh well.
This proceletyzing shit irks me though.
Oh... yeah... Christians swear too.

Right, Kami:  Part of many Xian's faith is witnessing, and so it's simply
part of their religion to try to convert us.  Us trying to prevent that 
*attempt* would be us trying to change their religious minds, which is 
(indirectly) proselytizing.  Xians are more than welcome to share their 
beliefs, as long as they don't try to extort us or bully us.  
---
I asked about Worldwide Church of God on the Pagan Digest (UtherNet!
UtherNet! UtherNet!); I also asked my sibs about it.  One responded that
the document in question (I forget the name of it now) was normally
tolerant and fair because it was a devious front for an intolerant 
religion.  They have no political agenda; they are, in general, isolationist;
and they do not feel it appropriate to convert the non-believers.
Their "religious intolerance" is manifested in a cult-like treatment of its
own members (30% tithe, for example).  My sib's attitude that this, in itself,
was enough to make them powerful and scary, struck me as religious intolerance.
---
*sigh*  Xians in the main seem to be nice people.  Some of them (like the 
author of this article) seem to be misguided (in my view) but sincere and
well intentioned.

(Gerund slipped in ahead of me.)
Good point, Gerund, although witnessing usually (or at least often) has the
goal of converting (even if indirectly).  This is a frequent discussion and
dilemma among at least my coven:  what amount of religious discussion 
constitutes proselytizing?  It seems to me there are several different 
kinds of way to discuss one's own religion:
(1) Abstractly, talking about your beliefs in an analytic, educational,
I'll show mine, you show yours way.
(2) Personally, talking about experiences with the goal of just comparing notes
on different views (3) Personally, talking about experiences with the goal of
showing why you  love your religion (which can  be different from 2) (4)
Hostilely, condemning any views that conflict with yours (5) Exclusionarily,
dismissing the possibility that anyone else's religion is valid. Few
conversations would fit clearly into one or the other class, but it  seems to
me that (2) and (1) are just sharing, and (5) is definitely  proselytizing. 
But where is the line drawn between "o.k." and " infringing on other's space"? 
(In all likelihood, this line  varies from person to person.) Eeep!   I hate
moral relativism.  :-)

I dunno... most of the time it all gives me a headache..   :)

Actually, I usually don't talk to non-pagans about my
experiences with ritual and such, guess I'm just a shy one.

You're definitely right about one thing, gerund, nobody can
force another person to change their religious views, no
matter how hard they try.  Any such change must come
from within, or it's meaningless.

this looks like a cool item!
re: #5- good point.  I've really enjoyed talking with a few of my friends who
feel that their religion makes them happy, they'd be glad if it made me happy
too, but if I'm happy with what I have, they're glad of that, too.  So much
nicer- and representative of so much greater inner security- than the other
attitude that makes us gun-shy; "I've found something that makes me whole. If
you find it, you'll be whole too.  If you claim to be whole without it, then
that must mean I was lacking something (thus less than you), so you MUST need
what I found in order to be whole."  It has largely been my experience that
no one really converts, just discovers what they were all along.  I mean, a
true conversion would involve developing a whole new personality, set of
responses to one's environment, etc.  Few people go that far, and the over-
night conversions often come to people who bounce from path to path looking
for a panacea.  I'm sure there are exceptions.  

re: #6, pt. 2- hm, sounds a lot like the approach of strict Jews and various
other sects: isolationism and moral superiority.  Only dangerous if they are
armed militants or infiltrating the school systems.  Certainly they have a
right to live as they will, and such bits of reasonably accurate information
are a service to the community they seek to leave behind.

re:#7- I love a good religious debate, and wish we could more often share our
experiences and reaction to them without any implied demand that another person
validate them.  And "that doesn't match my experience/reading/beliefs" is SO
much nicer than "your wrong and going to burn/come back as a cockroach for it".

        The article, to me, seem far more of an attempt to defend
pagans from Xians than a guide to Xians for converting pagans.  It
starts out using all meathods at its disposal to convince the
(presumably Xian) reader that Wicca is a reasonable and valid
religion, up to and including using half truths.  After all, while
Wicca's roots stretch back to before the advent of Judaism, so does
Xianity, and Xianity bears about as much resemblence to any one
of it's ancestors of the time as moddern Wicca does its.  For its
advice to Xians, it sensibly falls back on "if it's against your
religous principles to do, don't do it," for the rituals question, and
for the witnessing one, pretty much takes the additude of "if you
must, be polite about it, give them as much of a chance as you give
yourself, and don't impose."
        In fact, far from being a "guide for conversion," written by
Xians, it could just as easily be a publicity peice written by Wiccans
(and possibly former Xians).

Call me a Xian and I'll kick your butt....
Sorry... but this irks me, as I've said before....
so sue me

#11:  I agree.  I, for one, admit I'm playing up too much the bit 
about witnessing (ironically, I'm trying to play it down, but in 
any case just talking about it brings attention to it).
The offending (to me) piece is relatively small.  Other parts, I admit,
I thought to have been written by one of us, rather than a neighbor.

This *is* a great item!
Good points all.
Thanks for the clarification on convert and witness gerald. Point taken.
I've become alot like you Rob, I don't talk about my experiences with non-
pagans, and even not with Pagans many times.
I'm not sure Pagans *do* witness. I don't live my life based on what I think ot
others will see or not see. I just am. Do my best to be a good guy, and look
good occasionally;)
I really hope the gap can be bridged but with people out there like the
Catholic Catholic priest that advocates the murder of doctors that perform
abortions... Gotta tell you, that gap widens! As well, there is a guy at work,
an evangelical xtian, who in coversation f found out about my religion...this
guy is driving me up the wall. His attitude is is, if it's not xtian, it is
morally wrong. So... I politely ignore him.

bummer.  one jerk can make a workplace miserable, and sometimes it's hard to
distinguish the far to visible minority from the perfectly reasonable many.

The minority Christians... ( thats with CHRIST in it thank you)
Are mostly not jerks... it's the MAJORITY that are.
The Minority have usually come a long enough way in their Christian lives
that they will not come off as what most of you seem here to deem 'fundie'.
Anyhow... i'm just having a ugly hour right now... lost my license
only to find it right where i looked originally...
and stress and stuff... I guess you'd call me a semi-minority/majority type
christian.

Gerund, what I mean by "minority" are those few loudmouthed intolerant ignorant
jerks who holler loudly enough to convince congress, the school board, the
boss, etc. that they hold a majority view.  I suspect that most people in
general just want life to be simple, and that there are plenty of devout
Christians who aren't out to make anyone's life difficult.  Certainly, those
who have grown through the stage of trying to convert everyone they meet to the
level where they don't need to prove anything are likely to be a minority, but
one can only hope that they can combine with the sleeping masses to help keep
this world a relatively peaceful  place to live.  But then I've always been a
bit of an optimist...

Conversion is a form of reassurance.  A wise man said" Spiritual beings
seek truth, religious people seek reassurance."

In my experience, most christians aren't like what kami was refering to as
the minority.  It's just that the media (don't flame me, It's true.  I've
lived my whole life with it.) generally doesn't like christians, so the
only ones you hear about are the wierd ones. Still, variable had it right.

My mother is what you would call a "fundie", I prefer to call her a "roller"
She attends a church where they actually jump, shout, roll on the floor,
speak in tounges (I still think thier faking it) and do "laying on of hands.
I think she may be a little crazy with all her zealousy, but it seems to make
her happy, so i'll leave her to it.  The people at her church would probably
shoot me or try an excorcism if they knew I hang out with pagans.  I just
try to avoid them and live as I will and let others do the same.  Every 
time I see my mom she "reminds" me what time church starts, I just say
"that's nice mom", and sleep in.  I still consider myself a christian
but never believed in being pushy. Also organized churches never went over
well with me, too much politics and petty bickering.  As for witnessing
or converting, I figure if prople are looking to change, they'll find their
own way.

Well, enough babbling....Live in peace.

That's my church.
Sounds like a Crash Test dummies song, huh?

Anyhow....

re: #19- good point. Although, I'm not sure if it's that the media don't like 
Christians, or just that they are geared to look for the sensational in any
group. I have seen some abominable pr about pagans, even when they aren't doing
the "eat babies and worship satan" bullshit but actually trying to be neutral
"look at this wierd true thing we found...".  I guess there's not much they can
get away with doing to the Jews anymore, so they ignore them, and the only
Moslems you see in the news, for the most part, are bombing something.  It
sucks!

I think the media just doesn't like religion of any kind.  BTW, jltaylor,
most of the speaking in toungs is real.  I grew up in a Carismatic
Christain community, and this is from personal experience.  Some might be
faking, but most of it is real.

Ditto on that.

Though I doubt I will really experience any sort of personal
revelation in my life, both my sister an my father have spoken
in toungues.  this always struck me as strange becuase out of seven
family members they are the only real sane ones.  the rest of us are
convinced that we are much more important than we really are.

Well, my whole family and most of my friends growing up did it.  It
didn't seem strange then, and it doesn't really now.  Interesting what
conditioning over the course of seventeen years can do.

Ah... the question of conditioning.  That's where it's leading now?
Well the simple fact is... you believe or you don't and unless you've
had the 'experience and realization' to come to that belief you can
never quite wholely understand that belief.  Gosh I hope
that made sense.

Fear not.  It did.

#27:  Exactly.  It seems like many pagans I've met haven't converted as much 
as they've discovered a community with views similar totheir own.   Many 
(myself included) feel as though they've always been "pagan", but they have
a moment of self-admission (i.e. initiation).

That would be semantics... and I don't do semantics.
You folks definetely HAVE assigned a new meaning to pagan that
is NOT historically there.... or rather I should say you've given
it a clear meaning when historically it's had a vague one at best.

(You said you didn't do semantics, then started doing it.  :-)
Granted, I assume you mean that etymologically "pagan" and "heathen"
simply mean "country-folk" and historically mean "non-mainstream."
I believe that there is a somewhat more cohesive, but still not very 
cohesive, definition of it being used within the NeoPagan community.

No... I simply said what was done by 'you folks'.  *I* don't pretend to
be getting into the debate of what IS pagan.
I don't really care... in fact these day's I'd rather only identify with
the term GERALD PECK.  any other term is likely to be reeking with different
ideas behind it.  There IS however only one me.

RE:#29: Excellent point Brighn, never heard it said that way.
RE:#32: Relax Gerund. Many of us *do* care what is Pagan. In fact
that's why I'm here. Good company and trying to figure it out.
And ain't it the TRUTH about who we are!!
Although I have social needs that go beyond being just me. I'm
also a part of something bigger. At least I think I am...

Gerund, how do you know there's only one you?  :-)

Brighn, you're being mean!

Hey, I smiled.  It was only a joke.
<brighn cries>
<brighn writes onthe chalkboard "There is only one Gerund" 50 times>

You folks cheer me up.
I really NEED it right now... really.
Thank you.

glad to oblige, deary.  I'm sure you'll return the favor one day.

You never know.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss