well, i've used up others items for long enough.  here is an item
for all those of us in this cf who arn't pagans, or don't know a lot about
it, and want to know.  this item is only for those who are seriously
curious, and not for those who only want to put down others religions. i
origionally wanted this item to be for entry level discussions, so that
advanced ones can be taken to their respective items.  this item is for
beginners, mainly, to get answers.  have fun!

333 responses total.

kami, could you do me a favor, and post your book list with a short 
explaination?   thanx.

OK, favorite pagan texts, short version:
_Drawing Down the Moon_, by Margot Adler: basic overview of different options
or traditions and what they do.  She's one of my folk heros- an NPR reporter.

_Spiral Dance_, by Starhawk: everyone has read it.  Excellent exercizes. A
bit heavy on the feminist bias.  Lots of folks around here working in a
tradition drawn from her material.

_Complete Book of Witchcraft_, by Raymond Buckland: the ONLY thing of his which
I think has any redeming features.  Workbook style, fairly complete, some good
thoughtful questions.  Don't let him convince you everyone does things his way.

_What Witches Do_ and _Eight Sabbats for Witches_ (or _The Witches Bible 
Compleat_), by Janet and Stuart Farrar: why do such good books have to have
such horribly lurid covers?!  He's a journalist and the writing's not bad. I
tend to disagree with almost everything about the tradition in which he was
trained, but I still like everything they write.  That's life.

_Witchcraft (Wicca?) for the Solitary Practitioner_, by Scott Cunningham: most
of what comes out of Llewellyn press is very general, light weight and sticky
sweet, but some of it can be useful.  This book provides some nice suggestions.
From there, I might look at

_Magical Rites from the Crystal Well_ by Ed Fitch and _A Book of Pagan Ritual_
(I forget the author): very nice outlines for rituals.  A good starting place
for writing your own.

Now, to go off in some other directions, a bit less basic, my favorite books
on 
Tarot:  _Butler's Dictionary of the Tarot_: I like it because it compares
different decks.  It's a bit dates.  Sure beats Eden Gray as a place to start.
It it's too advanced, the booklet that came with your deck will do.

Herbs: John Lusts _Herbs_, Dian Dincin Buchman's _Herbal Medicine_ (good luck
finding it).  Both very practical- I'm not much into magical herbalism.

Cabala: _The Wiches' Qabala_, by Ellen Cannon Reed: very accessible intro to
the Cabbalistic Tree of Life.  Good exercises.

Western Mysteries: _The Western Way_, by John and Caitlin Matthews: very loose
historical basis, but good meditations and exercizes.  I'd watch out for most
of John Matthews' stuff- he does his research in his head.  Caitlin is a bit
more reliable.  But if you don't care about authenticity, enjoy.

Celtic Studies: this is my particular "specialty", so I will leave a
comprehensive list for another time.  I tend to rant.  But one favorite is
_Celtic Heritage_ by Alwyn and Brinley Reese.

For more Classical myth, etc. check out _The Masks of God_ by Joseph Campbell
and _The Golden Bough_ by Frasier.  This stuff is pretty hard going, and a 
touch dated and suspect, but fun.

Magical Fiction:  just authors-
Dion Fortune, Catherine Kurtz, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Diana Paxton, Mercedes
Lackey, Tamora Pierce, Charles de Lint, Susan Cooper(the Dark is Rising series)
Diane Duane, and others.  Have fun.

thanx.  that's a big help.
okay, first question.  could someone try to define wicca vs. witchcraft?
many i know (who don't know what they're talking about) confuse these,
and i want to get them straight.

Not all witches are wiccans.  All wiccans are witches.  Wicca is a tradition
of witchcraft within the neopagan set of religious traditions.  I'm not going
to try to define either comprehensively right now, as I am bound to offend
someone or say something inaccurate, and I won't be here to correct myself 
for the next week.  If you haven't gotten a good answer by the 13th, ask 
again.
See ya!  

(Hi Kami!  This must be the place.)  I'm a newbie by about an hour, but I'll
have a go at this one.  The difference between Wicca and witch depends on
who you ask.  There are some Wiccans who insist on using "witch" to describe
themselves and get irate at the general populace for using "witch" otherwise;
there are others who prefer to use Wiccan for themselves and leave "witch" 
out of the picture; there are others who use "Wiccan" for a specific religious
group and "witch" in a broader sense; there are others who use "witch" for 
themselves and don't worry too much about how others use it (in ignorance of
the religion, not in deliberate bad-mouthing: that's another issue).  I'm
usually in the last group, unless I'm feeling snitty.  Obviously, then, no
matter how you use it, you run the risk of offending _someone_.  There is 
no universally-accepted PC way of handling it except the old-fashioned way:
when talking to someone specific, _ask_.  I do agree that, at the very least,
all Wiccans are witches:  whether this is a subset relation or an identity one
is the problem.
(My first Grex message -- how'd I do?)
Peace, Love, and Joy
Brighn

you did great.  didn't answer the question too well, but maybe i didn't 
ask it too well.  i try to rephrase it.  what is a good defination of 
Wicca?  what is a good defination of Witch(in the non-Wicca sense)?
how do these relate(if at all)?  i know that this is not an easy
queation.  give me some broad answers.

Wicca is a religion. WitchCraft is a practice. Wicca has a specific world
view... for the most part... A Witch may be religious and may not be. Witches
can be from many cultures and religions. So...it is possible to be a Witch and
be Wiccan. But being a Witch doesn't mean that you are Wiccan. I'm a Witch but
I'm not Wiccan. Yes, we could sit and and debate this, but it's pretty
accurate.

Question rephrased and understood.  I was tainted by Kami's answer. 
Etymologically, "witch" means "bend" (not "wise", according to some sources,
which are usually mistaken, sometimes witching the truth :-) ).  The reference
is to  bending reality in some way -- not violating the rules of the Universe,
just manipulating them.  Hence, theoretically, a witch would be anyone who
strives to do so (in a
paranormal/metaphysical/extrasensory/choose-your-new-age-pop- term sort of
way).  A Wiccan is a neoPagan religious practitioner who (in most cases)
practices witchcraft.  Because Wicca is ostensibly grounded in the  witchcraft
traiditions of Europe (and this is mighty controversial), there are Wiccans who
would limit "witch" to "practitioners of the Old Ways of  Europe" and, since
they are the only remnants of this path, to themselves. (Witch has two further
definitions -- the Halloween green-faced hag, and " a mortal being which has
compacted with evil or antisocial forces in order to create havoc", which is
roughly the one used by anthropologists to  differentiate these from demons and
magicians in primarily non-complex societies.)

Though the word may mean to bend, (what language is that from?), I have allways
 thought that the idea of "supernatural" seened pretty out of place. As does
the idea of "bending". The Craft I practice seems to flow well within the paths
of reality, and nature. So, I don't feel as a Witch that I bend anything, but
mayb maybe use what's allready there. Not trying to be nit picky, just an
observation.

interesting.  next question.  could someone describe (breifly, please.  we are
just beginners) the basic beliefs of the Wiccans?  and, Phaedrus, could you
describe yours?

"Could someone describe briefly the basic beliefs of the Wiccans?"

No.

That's like asking for the basic beliefs of the Christians, there
are many diverse variations of Wicca, and at least one "denomination"
of Wicca will disagree with any particular idea you come up with.

Anyone wanna take a shot anyway?

It's typically said that all Wiccans accept the Rede:  An It Harm None, Do What
Thou Will.  Translation: You are free to behave in any way that does not harm
yourself or others. Sounds simple, but it's not, when you really think about
it.  Beyond that,  there is little consensus.  Apparent *majority* views (from
my perspective -- I'm likely to get disagreement on these):  balance between
complementary forces, a lack of concrete evil, polytheism as a manifestation of
duotheism, which *may* be a manifestation of monotheism (lots of differing
opines there), Goddess-focal (the God is defined in terms of His relation with
Her), no place of eternal damnation, ... that's enough to get me in lots of 
trouble. :-) For personal beliefs, mail me. Brighn

Sorry, Paul, but I've talked to one alleged Wiccan on the Net who
rejects the Rede as "only something that stupid newbies would need
to use."  His logic makes some sense, he feels that if you're
really in tune with the universe, you wouldn't want to hurt anybody,
so the "An it harm none" part is unnecessary.

it's still there, tho.  robh, i can give a concic summery of christian beliefs.
still, i was looking for aproximately what i got.  thanx.
phaedrus?

Calling someone a "stupid newbie" creates harm, and so someone who would
say that has violated the Rede.  That aside, dropping the first phrase
is a logical step *only* if you're acknowledging that you're de facto
following the first phrase.  Crowley just used "Do what thou will", primarily
on that principle.  My understanding of Crowley is that if you really do
what you will, and you really are on the right path for yourself, then
non-harm comes naturally; otherwise, if you're on the wrong path, you're
going to get zoomed anyhow.  (Errata:  non-harm won't necessarily come
naturally, but the only people you'll hurt are people who are on the 
wrong paths for themselves, else they wouldn't be getting in your way.)
It sounds like your acquaintance accepts the Rede in his rejection of it.
But this goes beyond intro stuff.  

eek...can someone help me...I think I am stuck...I just read all 354 or
whatever number messages...I am a newbie BBS...this is my first experience...I
just saw something that said "you have mail"...how do I get
there....(whimper,whine)  p

Don't worry, folks, I'm sending her mail.  Of course, if she can't
read her mail, that won't help much...

Try typing "!mail".

ok I think I am back...I can figure out how to read my mail...it is sending it
that is confusing me...sorry to interrupt, ya'll...I am only familiar with
e-mail.  Brighn, Robh...I am much calmer now.

Is anyone still out there?.

im out here.... but confs dont go quite that fast... new responses every hour
re not guaranteed.

Yes, people respond to conferences whenever they're on-line, it may
take a while.  If you want to talk to people in real time, you
should try "!party" from the Ok: prompt.

or "party" or "cafe"

Not anymore.  you left, so I followed you.

Goodie...We may have created another Party Junkie.,..:)

Thank you.  I was stephanie, but now I am Arwen.  Robh helped me greatly as
did Brighn. (polite applause)  To introduce myself... I am a 2nd degree..
traditional...currently with an eclectic circle in Lansing...(Brighn hates
my use of ellipses...think I will use them just to drive him mad ;-> )

welcome again, arwen.  not to be mean, or anything, but could we answer
(and ask) questions in this item?  thanx.  pahedrus?

no, dear.  You were not mean at all. Just focusing the energy.  I am curious
about the discussion on beliefs.  for my two cents, I think that if anyone and
I mean anyone, tells you that there is only one way, WALK AWAY.  Especially
oops, how did that get there?  Wicca is such a loosely organized religion of
such fiercely independants.  Can we actually have a firm belief system other
than  the threefold law and the Rede (which is applicable to everyone, not just
stupid newbies)? Just a thought.

Sorry about the delay Dang, I'll post laster today. Hello and welcome Arwen.

Hello Phaedrus. Just a quick look to see if there was anything new.  I am 
sorry about my post being so disjointed.  Computers are still very much
like the astral to me.  You can get there, but will you know what to do
once there?

Are we still answering a question?  Or are we waiting for a new one to be
asked?

Well, I just asked if we actually have a firm belief system other than the
thefold law ans the Rede.  But I may have stepped on someone else's question.?

You mean, "The Three-Fold Law and the Rede."  For the beginners, the 3-fold law
says that whatever you generate (good or bad) comes back to you 3 times.

I agree...MY phlisophy, and that of my she'endrea anne, is that of the 3fold
and the Rede....I am Wiccan, and I agree that I am a witch, but I think that
being a witch is more changing ME and in that way, I can help to change
the world for the better.

I also do not believe in a concrete evil...there are evil DEEDS but I do not
believe in an TRULY evil person.  YOu pegged my beliefs Brightn, all but the
Duo-thestic...I believe in both equally, not as HIM behind HER...it makes it
too....um....sexist in a way...(I would LOVE to hear your views...mail me
them!)

yes, i had asked phaedrus to outline his beliefs. (he is a witch, but
not a Wiccan)  still, in the delay, other questions are fine.  so long
as people keep then straight, and noone is forgotten...   :::::))

Finally! A moment to answer.
That's a tough question Dang, (what are my beliefs), I hold basiclly to the 
Do as thou will, the Taoist sort of law. Many Pagans interpret the rede as 
being absolute pasifism, and I can't understand that idea. Both in the physical
world and the magikal.
What else can I say, I practice a different kind of Craft than Wicca.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to Wicca bash. I know many people
that practice it, and I started out in the Craft studying the tradition. 

Hmm....absolute pacifism?  Can't say that I agree with that.  I do not
personally "do" hexing, but I am certainly not opposed to binding spells.
I agree with whoever it was that said they did not see evil as an entity
on its own.  I know I paraphrased that, but I do not know how to go back
to see exactly what you said.  Energy is grey and we make it what we will
as in "be careful what you wish for..."

That was me, Sis (Lady Arwen).  I think I called "concrete evil", but that's
roughly the same thing (the difference, for me, is that a concreteobject
need not be conscious, whereas an entity does).  It seems to me (and tell
me if I'm getting too abstract/advanced for this item) that many Wiccans
(myself included) perceive evil merelyas the absence of good (whatever 
good might be) -- yetthat seems like an oversimplification to me when 
it's inprint (the problem with words -- they are a paltry reflection of
thought ((don't let my linguistic colleagues hear me say that :-) )) ).
Anyone else want to try?

This is a very complex philosophical question. That of, "what is evil". 
We should start another thread for that!
But I think that it being just the absense of good is way to simple.
It doesn't take into account the relativity of the problem. For 
instance a xtian would say that we, Pagans, or at the least what we
*do*...is evil. (Hate the sin love, or kill, the sinner)
Wait a minute...we are evil:)
I *do* believe in self defense, on this plane and the next. Niether 
shouldbe 
should be taken lightly, but there is a place for war.
I suppose I do believe in "hexing" then. Would you think me evil?

By the wa, as a disclaimer, I'm not a war monger, and I had to think 
carefully before writting the above, it's a pretty unpopular view
I really detest what violence has done in the world, especially 
what it has done to the reputation of men. Even if it is well deserved,
it's a tough stigma to change.
I'm a very peaceful young lad, and would much rather be distributing hugs 
and strong drink than thinking of protecting my family, but it does happen.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss