How much theater is there in Wicca nowadays?  That is, would
a solstice ceremony or new moon ritual hold any interest for
non-Wiccans?  Also, would you mind awfully being stared at?
You know how agnostics and Jews will attend a midnight
Christmas service at a High Anglican church, just to ooh
and ahh at the splendor of it all, and the Anglicans couldn't
care less?  Have you reached that level of self-confidence and
openness to the curiosity of "outsiders" yet?  

169 responses total.

Nobody can speak for everyone, so it's tough to pose the wuestion in such
general terms. But...I know that many of the large organisations specificly
plan public rituals to be attended by Pagan and non-Pagan alike. Even if it's
to educate, and try to dismiss the fear that exists. I kind of like it when
non-Pagans show up, I mean most of us were non-Pagans at some point, eh??
And I *do* think that many rituals are very artistic, and include theatrics.
Ritual is without a doubt an art form.

By and large, I don't mind non-pagans being at public rituals,
as long as they make some attempt to join in with the ritual.
If they just sat in a corner and stared at us, I would get
really ticked off, and that would ruin any effects the ritual
might have.

Private rituals are, of course, private, so it's up to the
group to decide who gets invited and how serious they should be.

Agreed Rob, people sitting in the back of the circle and glaring
*does* take the energy down a tad:)

I think that the only problem that *I* have of those who come to just "see" is
that those who have preconcieved notions of what it will be like (like this one
guy who thought that it would be satan worship).  Other than that...I do not
mind a bit!  Infact...that is how I cam to know it, by just comeing to an open
ritual, and MEETING people...

As for "theater" umm...I dunno what you mean.  There is a "presentation"
sortoof but it is DEFINATLY interesting to look at, and more to be in.  

I MIND ALOT being stared at.  if you are going to do it, and be there, just
try and concentrate on you...that is MY philosophy.  When I was Catholic, I got
stared at, and it bother the HELL out of me (no pun intended) :)

Didn't Alex Sanders (if I remember the found of the 'Alexandrian School'
rightly) try this gig?  I believe he ended up getting in a punch-up
with some fellow in a pub when his ritual sword went awry.  The police
were called, bad press received, etc., etc.  It's not that I'm trying
to discourage anyone, but if you're going to involve swords, either
be careful or call in a proper fight choreographer. ;)

I've never heard of a ritual blade, in Wicca, being used in a staged fight
scene scene...where did you hear this Brett??  It could be that while he was
creating the circle he poked someone accidently. But that's why generally
speaking ritual ritual blades are dull. Less chance of cutting someone. Has
anyone heard of ritual fight scenes at all, let alone with weapons...??

I was being facetious.  Yes, indeed it was being used to create the
circle and he swung a bit wide.  Take my postings with a grain of
salt.  I usually tell my jokes with a straight face.  (Although it
is a bit harder to tell from my typing.)  I'm assuming it was dull.
It still will irritate people if you clout them with it.  (Especially
after a couple of pints!)

Alex Sanders was quite a guy, wasn't he?  I read Stuart Farrar's
book about Alexandrian Wicca, I think the title is "What Witches Do",
and if that's what witches do, I ain't a witch.

CAN I GET AN AMEN!!
No doubt about it Rob.
But don't let him steal the word, he's a fundie Wiccan!

an amen, here? doubt it.
maybe an "AmenPraiseBobHallejulah," from ol' fuz, though.

I have heard of the occasional "slaying of the consort" taking place 
in circle -- but generally not in open circles.

I love what the Farrars write, just for the writing, but I seldom agree with
what they say...  Oh well, it beats Buckland, who can't write his way out of
a paper bag and has written the same book about four times, equally badly,
with slightly different god and festival names... (Sorry for the off-topic
rant.  Pet theme.)

I've seen some excellent public ritual, and some terribly weak and/or confusing
stuff.  I think Open Arches tends to do fairly strong and impressive work, 
although I don't always agree with the choice of myth.  Perhaps GLPC goes too
far in the direction of being safe, and loses some impact or focus.  The 
Wiccan Church of Canada does an public ritual in a park every Sunday night,
advertized and everything (indoors of course in the Winter), and they do some
of the best public ritual I've seen although not every one of their rituals
are that memorable- kind of depends who's running it and how experienced they
are.  I don't think they tend to do "mystery plays" as much as Open Arches does
ADF, which isn't wiccan at all, is specifically set up to offer large public
ritual 8 times a year with groups being free to do other, closed, more intense
rituals besides.  

I can't imagine anyone being cool with gawkers, and one effect of casting a
circle can be that it gets hard to look at or to see the people inside.

Blades are impressive, but can certainly cause problems with observers or the
cops.  Oh well, a bit of caution goes a long way.

For me, it would depend on what you mean by "gawker".  If somebody came to a
public ritual to learn about the religion, but was uncomfortable about 
participating, I would rather they sit off in a dark corner and quietly
watch than have them mucking up the energy with uncomfortable vibes.  If
somebody came by just to have popcorn and watch the wierdos, then I wouldn't
want them around.  It would also be different, of course, if the _purpose_
of the ritual were to educate non-Pagans by allowing them to see what a
ritual looks like (and there was deliberately no energy being generated --
the coveners were merely going through the motions) -- which I think was
the gist of the original question.  In that case, limited (respectful) 
popcorn-eating might be tolerable.  

I have to disagree on that one - we had an Open Arches ritual where
a few of the folks decided to sit off and watch the ritual rather
than participate.  The energy just did not flow.  (I mean, even moreso
than at a typical OA ritual.  >8)  Finally, Aurora asked them to leave,
we got going again, and it went really well from there on.  Maybe
it's just us, of course.

I'd have to agree with Rob. It's seemed to be damper on energy to me 
too. Unless like we've all said the ritual is intended for show anyway.
I suppose if you're doing serious ritual though, you wouldn't be doing public
stuff anyway?! 

I was speaking for myself.  It's unlikely I could find a group of people who
would all feel equally comfortable with quiet watchers.  When I was first
ing, I _did_ sit quietly in the wings while my wife went through a solitary
ritual and that was no problem for her.  But I know that others in my coven
would completely despise the concept, regardless of the relationship.  We have
had two rituals now, though, were hangers-on were present within the circle,
and they didn't do anything (by their choice).  It worked for some (most), but
I'd ruther'd they stayed out of the main action.  Maybe it's because of the
size of the group -- we have but nine, which are rarely all there.  I dunno.
There ae so many variables, it would have to be a group-by-group,
person-by-person, ritual-by-ritual decision.  And it is indeed stranger to have
onlookers during Esbats (when we do our magic) than during Sabbats (when we
just celebrate).

Paul, only nine people...however do you function?!?! Just kidding,
hearing about working covens with that many people in them is odd today.
At least in my experience!
It's great to hear that it's going on.

For my part, I have done open rituals, but everyone was invited...I suppose
that makes it different.  The only problem we ever had was at my handfasting
when a good friend brought his mom!  A true blue Fundie.  She opted to sit
 outside of the circle...everything was fine until our HP called in theLord
as the "Great Horned God, Cernnunos"  and followed that up by casting the
circle with the coven sword. My back was to her, but I heard that she
almost passed out. :>  Interestingly enough, she doesn't appear on any of
the pictures or anywhere in the video.  I like ritual in ritual.  Myth plays 
are one of my favorites. My coven in Toledo did a "going behind the veil" for
Samhain.  Marvelous. Oh, I am Brighn's covensib. <g>

Going behind the veil???  Plaese do explain.  I've never heard of that one
and Samhain is my families major holiday.  We're always looking fr ne ways
to celebrate.  (i've been a witch long enough to know to what you
refer, I'm specifically asking for details of how you did it,
what  details you emphasized.  That sort of stuff.

Thanks.)

Misti
a witch these 14 years and still learning

My first ritual, I had NO idea what to expect...same for my she'endrea,
nne..(who is in ireland right now)  We were BOTH nervous (our firsts were
at different times) but we articipated, and learned.  we has good energy,
and felt BETTER for having participated, then sitting out.

I get freaked if someone just stares in the backgound.  If they want to
be there, and learn, and understand, then the group should understand
and open up..it makess it feel SO wonderful!  *8^)

i would love to join in (i haven't been to ant rituals), but i can
understand the position that would want to sit out the first time.
i can also understand the other position, that it messes up the
energy.  i guess it's between the watcher and the group.

It all just depends...at my first, Aurora and Dreamsinger were wonderful
and helped people feel right at home...

RE: 20   We cast circl in the normal manner (don't you just hate that phrase)
In the north was a black piece of gauze...behind it were Herne and Hecate...
appropriately hoode and wearing black robes.  hecate (me) held a sicle
(spelling) scythe but smaller.   As each covener stepped 'behind the veil',
they heard Herne say...Ask what is your heart's desire of my Lady Hecate...then
Hecate  lightly touched the blade to their heart and said 'If that which thou
seekest thou findest not within no that thou will never find it without.

Sounds like a very moving ritual.

It was indeed.  It was indeed.  Other myth rituala have also been fun. ...
tease tease :-)

Let's see, for one thing, I think it's really hard to do a true "dry run" with
no energy raised at all- beginning the motions will automatically begin the
connections and inner work.  It takes a lot of discipline to keep it all on 
the surface.  Second, I think that interested observers may have the effect of
taking in energy by not passing it on, while hostile or freaked ones just
disrupt it. Third, it is easier to "take care of" new people when they are
inside- you can monitor their energy level, ground them, put extra shields
around them, make them their own little bubble, or just explain what's going
on as needed.

Arwen, that sounds pretty neat.  I like "mystery plays", too.

It felt like the original question wasn't aimed towards new people or
seekers as much as towards interested parties who may already be satisfied
with their paths.  For my Xian confirmation, e.g., we went to a Bar Mitzvah
just to get exposed to other paths.

Yes, that was what I was asking.  The only thing I might add is
that of course being exposed to other paths might start as being
entertaining or merely satisfying one's curiosity, but can evolve
into a serious change in one's beliefs and way of life.  That's
why I don't think any group should close its doors to curiosity
seekers as a matter of principle.  I would hope that no Wiccan
would take offense if I say to my kids, "Hey, wanna go see some
*real* witches?" and then show up with them at a solstice celebration.
Nor should a Wiccan take offense if a little kid asks, "Are you
a real witch?"  If you haven't found a way to answer that one with
kindliness and a sense of humor yet, by all means close your doors.

As long as it's an open ritual, or you give adequate forewarning and
get appropriate approval, I wouldn't mind.  Would "Yes, and since you asked
that, you're going to wake up tomorrow as a big ugly frog" count as
kindliness and sense of humor?  :-)

If it was meant that way, it would be taken that way.
Kids have infallible radar.

this is true

Btw, I entered this after seeing public notices of various pagan 
events in a local newspaper.  I thought it might be fun and 
educational to take my two children (ages 8 and 10) to see one 
some day.  My guess is that Wicca in its present incarnation will 
endure and eventually enter the mainstream.  I'm a Christian 
myself, but from what I know about Wicca I'd like to think that 
God derives more joy from a solstice celebration than from a 
bunch of Lutherans locked up inside a dreary church on a summer 
morning.  ("Hey, they've finally started noticing my beautiful 
planet again!  Neat!")  Anyway, I think it's probably healthier 
to be exposed to "other paths" as children than as adults.  If I 
end up with a couple of little pagans on my hands, so be it.  
I think they were born pagans anyway.

I tend to think that preschoolers, at least, take naturally to a magical
world-view and the playful, celebratory, active nature of most pagan worship.
We include Timothy in ritual whenever possible, to the extent he can behave
in an appropriate manner, and he really gets into it.  We also introduce him
to Jewish tradition at a level he can handle- lighting candles, singing songs,
etc.  As he gets older, say about 7 or 8, he'll be better able to appreciate 
the sense of history, of age, that goes with that religion, and the more
cerebral nature of the worship.  Rather than push it at him too soon, he will
be introduced to the ways of his ancestors when he's ready.  Then I'll have the
responsibility of making both paths real options for him, no matter my personal
beliefs.  Oops, I guess this is a bit of a side issue.  More to the point, I
do share my religion with my kids, and am glad when a public ritual is kid-
friendly.  Not all are.  For example, GLPC is a lot better about that than
Open Arches.  ADF is by charter open to everyone, and I'll have to start
writing curriculum for kids REAL SOON, as we are starting to have enough to
need it.  I do think, if your beliefs are strong and well founded, that 
exposure to others will only deepen and broaden them, by fitting more pieces
of the puzzle into your sense of wonder and worship. 
There are people who call themselves "Christopagans" (Church of the Good 
Shepard in AA, Rev. Michael Dowd), and the Unitarian church has an organization
called CUUPS- Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans. Other people are
pagan and polytheistic, just including Jesus and/or Jehovah in their pantheon,
or putting all other gods below the Christian one. So there isn't necessarily
a conflict between preferring the woods to a building and finding god in a
Christian framework.  You'd just have to deal with bigots from both traditions,
sigh.

Absolutely, Kami...bigots come in all shapes, sizes, flavors, traditions..etc.
sigh...I get very tired of it.  I am glad to hear you doing some comparativee
religion work...kids will find what they need...I did.  At the age of 10 I
had made my self a set of I Ching sticks. ( I didn't know about the coins
yet)...I was also at 12 doing numerology readings for my friends...needless
to say my not-very-religious mom got upset and took my toys away.  What she
didn't realize was I did not need the props anymore and I had a library
card.

re: #33
        Kami, I think that in your first few lines you've made a logical
reversal.  
>I tend to think that preschoolers, at least, take naturally to a magical
 >world-view and the playful, celebratory, active nature of most pagan worship.
 
 I contend that the nature of pagan worship and it's magical world-view is
modeled on the nature and world-view of the innocence of the child.  As such,
it is easy for the child to adapt to the pagan nature.
        In effect, the preschool child isn't 'taking to' pagan nature, but 
rather, the childs nature is being interpreted in the pagan framework.
        To me, this says that what is of value to pagan belief is wonderment,
learning, development of self-awareness, an unworldly innocence in thoughts
and actions, and all the other archetypal aspects of childhood.  My experience
adds to the list the very adult notion of responsibility for one's actions.
This results in a combination of values which seem almost paradoxical within
the context of the modern, technological world.  It is my sincere hope that
this seeming paradox can be resolved without an attempt to eliminate the
technological aspects of modern existence because I cannot foresee any
widespread success of such an attempt.  The world will not regress in such a
way willingly, except by willful, violent destruction of the infrastructure 
which supports technology, and the costs of such would be much greater than the
 returns.

RE: #35
I *think* I understand what you're saying here. And I agree, the advancement
to inocense need not be a bloody revolution. Technology and Art can and do
coexist quite well.
It's going to take the meeting of the artists and the scientists. But it 
happens out here all the time:)

Phaedrus...I,too, hope that we can resolve the seemingly inherent conflicts.
I say seemingly because as an eternal optimist I hope for more real communi-
cation between all of the world ideologies.  Yes, I said I was an eternal
optimist.  Kami, I would be very interested in hearing how you involve
the littles in ritual.  Keman (Terrie) ansd I are planning a family soon.
One of my fears is that as a completely non-christian....how will I make
sure that my children get a thorough education in religious matters..I have
enough experience in Episcopalian thought, but very little in all else.  I
too went through a comparitive religions studies when I was in E.Y.C.(young
church.)  It was interesting but I didn't really get much meat.  I do not
want my children to be seen as weird....already weird enough that they have
two moms and more aunts and uncles than a 2nd generation Walton! 

Honey, any child of yours is GOING to be wierd- revel in it!  Seriously, I've
had some of the same concerns.  Timothy is an amazingly sensible kid, and so
far hasn't come out with any really worriesome pronouncements.  Now, as it 
happens, I don't tend to call myself a witch; pagan or wiccan or just a 
magical person, which is the term we've hit upon to use with him in
distinguishing which group of friends or type of gathering we're going to. We
chose a day-care and preschool with pretty open values and attitudes, where
the teachers wouldn't freak out if he did come up with a surprise or two. So
far, so good.  Now, as far as comparative religions, it happens that both of
us come from Jewish families.  Last time we were down to visit my folks, mom
was talking about a Jewish deli that served Cuban food, and Timothy asked some
question about what Jewish meant.  Mom said he was a Jewish boy, and he said
no he was a (I forget now- maybe "big") boy.  I liked it, mom was scandalized.
This visit, he commented that he was Jewish, Grandma and Grandpa were Jewish,
Bubbi and Grandpapa were Jewish, was EVERYONE Jewish? (sometimes I think my
mom thinks so:)...) At home, we introduce him to the Jewish holidays, using
the year wheel as a point of reference.  Xmas time was interesting- we had a
Solstice tree to celebrate light and life, Hannukah candles to celebrate light,
etc.  In general, we try to give him some solid sense of consistent practice
(pagan, in our case, currently working mostly with ADF/Celtic styles, other
times Wiccan, but the difference isn't more than a quick 4 1/2 year old can
manage) and familiarity with the ways of his ancestors so that later he can
make a real choice or integrate them.  Later, when he is older and has a more
solid sense of reality, I will encourage him to go along with friends to their
churches or synagogues, or arrange to take him there myself if he asks specific
questions.  It'll be fun.  Of course, Gareth doesn't care just now as long as
he gets to cuddle with mama and papa.  A bit of a nuisance if we are doing
much of the ritual- he's apt to get fractious at just the wrong time.  I think
we need to be firmer about having him stay with the designated babysitter for
now.  Timothy went through a similar period, and still isn't old enough to
make it through all of a longish ritual, but he likes to be there and help, so
we try to give him suitable parts.  Someday maybe I'll tell you about the 
squirrel circle...':)'

So, is this plan to reproduce a concrete goal or just a notion? 'Tain't easy,
ya know...

An absolute concrete goal.  Children are too important to both of us for it
to be only a notion.  We both have to have things like insurance and full
time employment for at least Terrie.  I am hoping to have the luxury of
being a stay-0at-home mom.  (An aside...when the Episcopalian Priest asked
me at the age of 5 if I was a little Christian....I proudly responded with
"No!  I'm a little Irish)  Thanks for the input on kids.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss