I thought of the idea for this item while talking to Canis on the Grexwalk
on 6/25/94.  I was talking to him about various experiences I had had
that had led to me becomming pagan.  We decided it would be a good idea
to have an item where we could discuss experiences that we had had
(on just about anything 'not normal') and get constructive critiscism.
The one requirement of this item is that everything said is CONFIDENTIAL
TO THIS ITEM.  IF THE PERSON WANTED TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE (i.e. his parents)
ABOUT THIS HE WOULD.  I ask you all to observe this.  Thank you.

286 responses total.

how I became a Pagan. Actually, in one sense, Ive always been one-- a
non-christian. Ive been atheist or agnostic since i first knew about religion.
But Ive thought out my beliefs more in the last couple of years, and now Ive
got a name for my views. Its still much like Atheism and Agnosticism, but with
elements of Pagan faiths. I am now a Pantheist Atheist. I believe all gods
exist (maybe only in the minds of men, who am i to say for sure) but worship
none. This faith is particualarly unchristian, almost antichristian as it seems
the god with the most followers is "The One God" of hristianity. Simply put,
how can i worship a god who has stood by for such evil and death as our world
has seen in the last 2000 years.... even his "faithful" are not protected: from
death or evil.

Fireball, most people I have ever met/heard of/talked to who call themselves
pagan at all, were either born into it or have had the experience of "coming
home".  That is, they find words for what they have always believed/done/
perceived, and other people doing similar stuff, but they don't necessarily
change their fundamental beliefs or practices- just get "permission" for them.
Even those whose parents are deepseated fundies were always black sheep or
always looking for a personal, joyous, connected to nature, positive way of
worship.

One other detail: some of the wierd shit we do, we do by habit and only 
figure out that it's "weird" when other people start looking at us funny. So
once we find like-minded others, we may happily go back to taking for granted
having friends who may or may not ever have had bodies, being invisible to
cops, influencing dice, making parking spots appear even in AnnArbor, knowing
who is going to phone, etc.  Although I do know some people who are sadly
freaked out by their natural talents.  Sigh.

Ummmm, maybe!!
With what?

Woops! Sorry.
Someone was trying to chat me and I answered the forum accidently. You can
imagine my shock;P

By the way, I agree with Kami. (as usual)
The really weird part is when you've been one of the weirdos for a while,
what you start to see as weird, is even weirder.

If this is about the conversation me and fireball had, we were discussing
particular events/feelings/emotions/thoughts/conversations/.... that we
have had to make us think about paganism. I wouldn't call myself a pagan
but I think a witch, but I'm not exactly that either, I don't know what I
would call myself, but I know I have had controled out of body experiences
well almost, and I have definatly had engery bulid up inside of me for no
observable reason (ie I wasn't doing drugs or taking sugar). I'll write
more about this later, but I've gotta go right now

Please do Canis, this sounds interesting.

I suppose I should relate my side of the story.  I had decided that about
1/2 hr into the walk that canis was 'safe' (not going to tell my parents...
I'm probably paranoid, but hey...that's me)anyway, I started to relate to him
what had happened to get me to the point I'm at.  It is a series of distinct, 
but interrelated evnts.
One bit of knowledge before I start: I will refer to two people Willie (Yu)
and Mike (Weidenhamer).  They are two friends that I met up at school.
1) The first thing that happened was finding out that Mike and Willie were
interested in tarot and did several readings.  We did a few readings
but nothing interesting (not yet anyway)
2) Willie got his hands on a copy of the Necronomicon...scary book.
   He began to draw symbols (from the book) all over his room.  One night
   I was holding my crystal (on a dragons claw around my neck...I think
   it is aligned to me and therefore a wonderful focus) and I closed my
   eyes.  I saw the freakiest thing.  Two red eyes (whi I can't draw in ascii)
   on Willie's wall.  When I told Willie he went over to look at the wall.
   Drawn in *****VERY***** faint yellow chalk (white walls) were two signs of
   the watcher, centered at the 'pupils' of the eyes.  This is probably
   the 'start' of everything.
3) I tried sensing the otherworld (as I called it, I now beleive that it
   it the astral plane or something similar).  I encountered several denizens
   some benevolent, very few malignent, most just ambivelant.
4) About a month later we were having one of our friday night get-togethers
   (the 'readings' had become a regular event).  We had found that a candle
   gave the right amount of lumination...not too much, not too little.

   (oops, pardon the blank line) Anyway, I decided to have a little 'fun' with
   the candles aura.  Keep in mind anything I did or thought is influenced
   only by myself and my friends and none of the 'books' or 'professionals'
   Anyway I tried to change the color of the aura.  This did not wqork too
   well (I assume now because the candle is flame it's auras color is set).
   Next I tried to shape the aura.  I imagined it in the shape of a man's
   head I had seen (Javert from Les Mis if anyone is interested) and asked
   Mike and Willie what they saw.  Willie could not see anything (though
   I now beleive his talents lie elsewhere...more on that in another message)
   Mike on the other hand, described a man's head...that looked EXACTLY like
   the one I had imagined.  Keep in mind I had not told him what I was doing
   to the aura...only that I was doing something.
(this is getting long...sorry)
5) about half a month later, I had made my sensing and travelling much more
refined
   they were not yet perfect, but I had a little more control.  I had already
   decided that I did not like my religion (judiasm) and decided to see what
   was\' out there'.  I sensed, fairly quickly,  a collection of entities that
   I beleive were/are gods and goddesses.  I don't honestly know how much of
   what happend with them was imagined and what was real, but suffice it to
   say, that that encounter made me decide that I was worshipping one member of
   this 'pantheon' but I had not yet been informed which
6) Next week I tried the same thing.  And only contacted one member.  My
   goddess.  It was then that I realized that it was her I was going to
   worship (several people have tried to tell me to ignore this, that
   it is delusion, but I beleive what I beleive and nothing else).  Anyway
   Since then I have only gone'astral' once or twice not counting the
   occasional contact that I have with my goddess.

that's pretty much the story up to the current moment.  Any input
is welcome, just please don't tell me I'm wrong or that SHE does not exist
because I will tell you where to SHOVE that theory.

thank you for your time,
--Jeremy

Well Jeremy, it sounds like your having a very powerful experience. 
With everything you've described, I'd be more than a little moved too!
One word of advice, be sure to temper that excitment with some caution.
One thing that seemed curious, you said you had made your travelling and
sensing more refined but 'not yet perfect'. Are you saying that those 
skills are perfect now?
It's good to have confidence in your beliefs, but foolish to completely
ignore good advice, eh?
When you talk about the contact with your Goddess, explain. Are you 
seeing and talking to her. I'm not trying to be disrespectful here.

no! you made some good points! I don't really have forays into the 'otherworld'
much anymore...probably because I feel that I need training to do more than
that which I already have.  The contact was...interesting...I will try to
describe it
1) no sight...I never really saw her...I just knew she was there
2) it wasn't like we had a conversation (hi, how ya' doin'...) but that I 
   received (and sent) feelings from(to) her.
I have done some thinking...it is possible that I talked to a messenger and
not HER, but I really don't think so...I dunno...
later

Dammit, folks, I thought I RETIRED from this stuff!!  PLEASE don't screw around
while finding out what you can do.  I am NOT on the "rescue squad" any more.
(Why don't I believe myself)  That said, so far it doesn't sound, Jeremy,
like you've done anything stupid.  Thanks be given for small favors.  Phaedrus,
could you please do the basic scare lecture- you know, the one about going
too far without someone watching over or contacting entities you don't know,
or otherwise inviting oneself to become a crispy critter?  Thanks.  I'm apt
to be a bit too severe about that.  Now, on to pleasanter matters:

Your sense of the nature of most "critters" seems about right to me: most
are pretty mellow, although some are a bit capricious or just too damn "big"
(high energy) to play with safely.  Some are real nasty- you can pretty well
tell the difference if you stay at all centered, although I've known people
who were just trouble magnets, and either habitually brought home trouble or
didn't recognize it while it was turning them into twice-baked potato shells.

I had a slightly similar experience of deity, but it was after YEARS of 
hanging out with lots of smaller "critters without bodies" (sort of faery
folk or various sorts and local nature spirits) as well as the occasional
ancient place-spirit of a larger scale.  I had also gotten used to a general
sense of universal deity which could be called "Mom" or "goddess and god".
Well, a year and change ago, some shit hit the fan (MY fan, not just someone
I cared about) that I really felt compelled to deal with, not walk away from.
About that time, I realized that I was starting to call on deity more often
in my home rituals (I had often worked just with the balance of elements, not
seeing a need to "bother" a particular manifestation or even sense of deity),
and that I was working with two particular images.   Mostly just feelings of
presence/personality and a set of symbols I was continually drawn to use. I
eventually figured out who they were.  Predictable as hell.  Once the trouble
was solved, the one gradually dropped into the background, and I never set a
personal name to Him; I've internalized enough of the strength and surety to
take care of my family and keep my domestic "kingdom" and am not working with
the paradigm of the Lord of the Forest much in this part of the country. SO
the relationship is still there, but not very active.  On the other hand, I
did start a project under the direct inspiration of the Lady, who named herself
Brid for me to call on.  It's a really new experience for me, this sense of
proximity.  Hard work at times, too.  The fun part is that I've finally 
started writing bardic poetry again, in part to express this new state of 
affairs.

Well, that's enough about me for the moment.  I hope it helps to illuminate
your own experience.  You may find yourself being given specific images or
symbols with which to contact/relate to your Goddess, if not a particular
name.  Since you haven't a background in comparatice mythology, you may need
to do some digging to find her context, and research is never amiss.  Or just
"ask" her.  Now, don't forget that the archaic form of the Jewish religion did
once have a Goddess, but from your description I don't think that
was it.  Patience and work.

That last response got too long.  Sorry.  Anyway, a couple more things:
Jeremy, and for Willie and Mike, too: the use of these perceptions is new to
you, and between that and your age (hormones you know), you're getting one
hell of a surge.  This is a time when you can learn an immense amount, but it
is also a time when you can cause yourself a lot of scar tissue by doing too
much at once or unprepared.  Moreover, you begin to set later patterns which
will be hard to break.  For example, the Necronomicon was written for the 
sole and entire purpose of mind-fuck.  If it has any virtue, it is from the
energy invested by the user and perhaps from the general patterns followed by
the author in creating the matterial.  It might be better to go back to some
older, more solid, less emotionally(?) laden material, such as the proceedings
of the Golden Dawn if you want to play with symbols and ceremonial structures.
Now, much as I hate R. Buckland's writing, his _Complete Book of Witchcraft_
isn't a bad workbook: fairly wide and some encouragement for explanation, 
pretty complete, some nice basic stuff on runes/sigils etc.  Look into a 
meditation form, too, like Yoga or Tai Chi or Trancendental Meditation or
Siddha meditation or some such, to teach centering and being still.  It's very
important.
Tarot is fun.  Some good books on it.  I tend to like Butler's Dictionary of
the Tarot because it compares interpretations and decks, but it's old and not
all that complete.  Eden Gray is very shallow.  Other divination forms are
fun too, but you might want to avoid scrying for now, as it's a bit too wide
open and can be hard to limit- you get images directly, without the buffer of
a stylized symbol set, so it's apt to stay with you when you need to be back
in ordinary reality, and resonate oddly.  Later.  Also, I don't like Ouija
boards, of all the forms I know of, because they seem most prone to throwing
up unpleasant bits of one's own mind as if they were separate entities.  It
can be quite convincing and distressing.  Look into dowsing, perhaps.  I 
like using a pendulum as a focus for information.  It can be quite clear for
series' of yes-no questions, too.
Work on grounding, on checking in with ordinary reality even while thinking 
about or playing with non-ordinary events, on coming back to center and 
recognizing what is of you, what is you but changed, and what is external or
percieved.  That way you have some control over your interactions with 
entities who might not have to eat, sleep, shit and keep your parents from
freaking out.  Right? <g>

OK, good night.  Sorry about the long lecture, but this is a particular field
of concern for me.  I'm guite excited for you, and don't want to discourage
you at all, just caution you.  If I sound like a parent, what do you expect?
<g>  But seriously, I've been doing this particular routine (cautioning or
rescuing relative "beginners") since I was 10, and this sort of stuff in
general (hanging out with various sorts of "critters") since I was 3 or 5.

this is great!  sort of like a series of books i read once...
anyway, i want to learn about this kind of stuff.  how do i go about it?
what do o do if i have no "talents"? i have many other questions, but 
i guess they can wait for now.

i did not read that. too long.,
sory...
sorry, even.

Kami: thanks...I actually did have one experience with something that was
1) big 2) powerful and 3) not happy.  Luckly I puulled out quick enough...
Of course, there was the fact that a rather large GOUGE was taken out of
the outside stone wall at about the same time...dammit I need a teacher!!
(I  also wanna learn tai chi!) ARGH!!!
thanks for your help,
--Jeremy

You might want to be careful out there Jeremy. There are alot of 
Guru's looking for followers out there. Beware!
Tai chi would be an excelent outlet for alot of this frustration. Give it a
ssho try. You can find Tai chi instructers around A2 fairly easily, especially
in the summer.

re: #13- Everyone has some "talent": it's partly a matter of using all or at
least more of our perceptions than we are often taught.  Some is also skill,
not talent. But different people find different things easier or harder- I
can see a bit of a place or building's history just for the asking, but can't
do skrying at all.  I can do hands-on healing to a simple level quite easily,
but don't feel comfortable running a working circle because I haven't the
timing and control.  I love to lead guided journeys, but have problems being
part of deep trance work.  I damn-near live in a sort of "green half-world" of
critters which don't really have bodies (sort of like the creatures mentioned
in fairy tales, among others), but haven't done any astral travel.  I don't
think I'd much like that level of abstraction.  And so it goes.  Takes time
and practice.  

Some good books (standard basic texts- probably already listed in another
item)
_Spriral Dance_ by Starhawk:  excellent exercizes, a bit political, standard.

_Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler: resource guide.  basic.

_What Witches Do_ by Stuart Farrar: another basic.  nice writing. I disagree
with most of his tradition's teachings, but it's fun reading.

_The Western Way_ by John and Caitlin Matthews: more ceremonial. good exercizes
Not as basic.  Some Cabala/british occultism thrown in.  I like it.

_Illusions, the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah_ by Richard Bach: Lots of
fun, lovely philosophy/perspective.

in fiction, check out Marion Zimmer Bradley's _The Forbidden Tower_ and other
Darkover books, Mists of Avalon, and Inheritor.  Remember, they are sensation-
alized and distorted for publication.  Also Catherine Kurtz's Derini books and
_Lammas Night_ , just about anything by Diana Paxton or Tamora Pierce or
Charles De Lint.  Have fun.

re:#14- that's ok.  not essential.  be mellow.

re:#15 and #16: try going to some local open rituals.  Robh knows what's when,
and they are generally posted here.  It's not the level of intensity you're
playing with, but that's a good thing; give you a chance to see what "normal"
looks like now and then.  Keep an eye out for larger classes, gatherings and
festivals.  Be wary of anyone offering too freely to teach.  Avoid offers of
"psychic development"; they may be ok, or they may be dangerously ungrounded
and drag you off in all sorts of flaky directions.  Especially Ekankar- Ugh!!!
(I spelled that wrong)  Look for signs about Tai Chi around campus or at the
local dojos. There's also the Buddhist temple and Tibetan temple in town,
and yoga classes and such like.  Be patient and persistent.  Keep in touch.

that's actually one of the things I'm looking for.  <for those of you who
have read Mercedes lackey you will understand this reference>  I feel kinda 
like Talia.  I know some of the advanced stuf...but it's built on self-k
knowledge...this can get dangerous.  I am trying to learn more in
this area, and when a friend of mine suggested (and described) T'ai Chi, I
realized that it would be a good idea...now all I gotta do is find a sensei.

thanks again for your help,
--Jeremy

Um,, in response to... um, that item after fireballs first recently.
does anyone have any sugestion for seeing where such "talent" lies in me and
how to try to release some of it? um, much appreciated.

I think really just to start doing stuff fuz. Go to some rituals and
listen to yourself. If it seems right, do it.
I found transwork, and visuialization to be helpful. If you're going to do
this kind of stuff alone, take precautions though. Eh??
I think finding a group to work with is the best way. And maybe the safest.
Good luck Jeremy, sounds like you've got a good grip on reality, allways
important in these matters. It's easy to go off in the astral and see
exactly what your looking for...

speaking of Mercedes Lackey, how close are the Diana Tregarde books to 
reality?  these were my first exposure to the pagan thing in fiction,
and i loved the books.

Exaggerated for fiction, of course, but based on a real person who can indeed
get a bit wild and wooly at times.  Some of the methods aren't too far off.
I wouldn't try to base a whole lot of practical work on those novels, which
is why I left her off my list of authors.  I do love those books, however, 
and Misty Lackey is a very sweet person.  Plays a fair 12 string, too.

love 12-strings.  have one myself.  well, i'll give you your experience
item back, and go start a questions one myself.

thanks for starting the item.  Maybe we should set up a pagan-music in-person
visit some time.

that would be great.  my sched. now is fairly open.

you lucky creature.  Mine is insane.  Oh well, when something has to give, 
it's usually sleep.  See you in a week!

adios!

Saturdays are good.  I would be very interested in meeting with people and
(hopefully) learning something, and if not then simply shmoozing.
laters

Going way back to #1, how can you be an Atheist Pantheist?  An Atheist
denies the existence of any gods (including the *possibility* of the 
existence of gods).  Surely you mean agnostic?

Hmmm...can you be a monotheistic Pagan?  Just wondering...I am definitely a
polytheist.

because a pagan is a non-christian.  islam, for example, is a mono-
theistic pagan religion.

Dang...I don't quite follow your answer.  Pagan from the christian view? Some
christians see Catholicism as being Pagan idol worshippers.  I once knew
someone who was told to "not play with those catholic children".  What a
horrible way to raise one's children.  But, I do see that islam is not 
christian...interesting thought. Thanks!

By the medieval definition, any religion which is not decidedly
Christian is considered "pagan".

The definition of most of the people in this conference is
probably different, though.  >8)

Hehehehe...got that right, rob.  *I* am a mono-thestic pagan.  or actually,
I am a duo-thestic...one God and one GOddess.

i wasn't trying to offend anyone, merely pointing out that the definition
for which the word was created was non-christian (which was non-catholic,
at the time)  :)

Dang, I don't think you've offended anyone.
Sun, are you really Mono, or duo theistic? By that I mean do you accept other
views of the divine?
Robh, at least that puts us in some good company!

I like the differences.  In the coven that I am in we have several varying
views of deity ranging from mono to poly.  It works for us.  

rr

Sounds like a tolerant thoughtful group!

I am more duo- but I do not limit that duo to a particular FACE or NAME.
I believe that every god/goddess is linked and is one being, and they just
have different names for their different personalities...  but if I had to 
CHOOSE one...I would be mono- with a particular God perference

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss