Hah! I'll be you thought that this thread was going to be about those
nasty fundies.  Wrong!  However, I'm wondering if there isn't some
need for a back-to-basics movement in many of the alternative
religions extant today.  (Note that I'm thinking out loud here in
order to encourage debate, not to offend anyone's particular
tradition.)  I've spent some time reading conferences, searching
the Internet, etc.  There's enough information out there to make
your head hurt.  Are we over-intellectualizing something that is
intended to be primarily an emotional experience?  Furthermore,
is there the potential for the computer to be abused as a tool to consolidate 
power by unscrupulous individuals?  (I come from the Mark Twain 
school of thought concerning religion: it's fine and necessary as long 
as it isn't organized.)  So let's hear your thoughts...

33 responses total.

AAAARGH!  (that's my "thought" on this matter :})
Seriously, It's hard to get "back to basics" when we don't even agree on what
those basics are.  that's what a lot of religious "wars" are about- each side
arguing that their view is the only right one.  As long as we honour debate,
perhaps as our unifying sense of what makes us different- better- we can 
continue to be tolerant and grow closer to each others views until we do find
out what really is "basic".  Or something.  Now, one interest I have is in
the question of "what makes us different" or "what brings us together"- not
so much particular beliefs but general attitudes and qualities.  What are we
all looking for that we find in so many wonderful ways? etc.

Overintellectualizing?  Of course- think where we come from.  It's hard to 
create religious experience which is ecstatic, immediate, transformative, when
the models most of us came from are sterile, fixed and external.  Part of the
"path" we travel may even be just getting TO the path- learning to trust in
the intense, personal, messy sort of rituals and experiences which are so much
more real than the other kind, but less "safe".  Part of the process of getting
there may indeed involve seeking corroboration from our fellows: through
gatherings, publications, and even through the electronic media.  Since those
of us who use the internet are apt to be fairly highly educated, of course
our attempts to sort out this new reality will look pretty intellectual. For
some that does indeed allow them to keep a distance, for others it intensifies
the level of "reality" in their work.

I don't see how the computer could be used to consolidate power, any more
than anything else could be, among those who are not easy to lead, but then
I'm not very "paranoid"...

So, Kami, I believe that what you're saying is that you're not so much
concerned with the "trappings" of a particular tradition or path so
much as what the intent of the people who follow that path.  This
seems reasonable.

Yes, many of us who "hang out" on the network tend to be on the
intellectual side.  I might also argue that many of us tend to like
controlled environments.  They are less "messy".  However, they're
also a bit cold and bloodless, at least for my own tastes.  For
all we know, the person on the other end of the wire is just some
program that's managed to pass the "Turing Test".  Even if it is
is incovenient and perhaps unsettling at times, we need to
maintain the element of human contact.

Of course we need the element of human contact.  No one ever gets enough hugs!!

Seriously, I don't discount the value of the conversations/ relationships I've
begun via e-mail, but the better they get, the more I want to sit down in a
quiet (ha!) room with each person, or perhaps some combination of them, and
have a quicker-paced discussion, go walking in the woods, show them my book
shelves, etc.  We ARE still basically a gregarious species...

I'd have to agree that it's tough to "get back to the basics" when we really
haven't identified them! I also think that we are looking for too many
differences, and not enough similarities. I also think it's changing.
I think we've just come through a tough period in the last 5 years or so, 
and it seems to be improving. Has anyone else made this observation?

Hm, not sure what you mean by a "tough period"- in terms of conservatism in
the main-stream culture or within the pagan community?

I think i'll just get back to what i am.  I guess
that's the basics for me.

re: #6- That's all any of us can do.  Sometimes it's tough enough. I'm a 
great believer in each of us having our own "personal magic", the style which
is native to ourselves, irrespective of any teaching or shared system. 
SOmetimes it's rather a challenge to honor that personal way of being, of
perceiving, in the face of one-true-wayism, or of our own desire for
acceptance, for corroboration, for community. Perhaps part of figureing out
what are "the basics" is figuring out the "rules" of our own way(s)- one
person has a close affinity for smith craft, a good feel for steel, makes
all their own tools. Another works best with what is living, trees, the 
natural world, and finds "cold iron" entirely inimical to their magic. To
complicate the process of discovery, we have only the meagerest shared 
language with which to work out and discuss these matters, far too much of
what has been written was under the category of "fantasy", making it hard
to really explore and give credit to, and much of what has been worked out
and written down in easily accessible form belongs to a narrow range of
styles or traditions: what is the person to do, who cannot work easily and
effectively in the presence of cold iron, if most of what they have read is
in the British traditions of Wicca, where an Athame is perhaps the most 
important tooll? If all the covens/groups they come across, worse yet, are
working in more or less that form, they may never find out that there are
alternatives.  the "basics" might seem, to them, to consist of the formal
casting of a circle with a knife, calling of quarters with a sign drawn usning
a knife, etc.  Even if their teachers remind them over and over that the only
*necessary* tool is their will, they are still seeing set forms and tools
over and over- how are they to know that they are suffering from a sort of
interference, an incompatibility problem, rather than mere incompetence?

Hm, I suppose this is slightly oblique to the topic, I'm not sure. Is the
question of learning to recognize one's personal magic a "basic", or should
we be discussing just the matter of "doctrinal differences" within the forms
of pagan worship and what constitutes a significalnt difference vs. a minor
detail of flavour?

i'm with you on the personal magic thing, kami
whatsa athamme
?

I'll let kami answer her question, but Jon...are you a Pagan??

well, he ain't wiccan, anyway...
An "athame" is a fancy word for a knife.  Robh, pipe down!  Anyway, if you are
being formal about it, it is likely to have a black handle (bone or wood. But
I've seen plastic too...) and double edged blade.  It is used for magical work
such as casting a circle and invoking the spirits of the elements at the
four quarters of the circle, for focussing the will, and just about anything 
but cutting... If one is being that formal, one might also have a white handled
knife called, I believe, a boleen, which is used for the actual cutting needed
for magical work: cutting herbs or thread, measuring salt, trimming wicks, etc.
Now, many people put signs or runes on their knife handles, appropriate to
themselves, their tradition, their primary work, patron deity, etc.  For what
it's worth, the only knife that ever stuck around for any length of time- 
almost 10 years- had a curly maple handle made by a good friend.  I wouldn't
dream of adulterating it in any way.  I used it for casting circles, drawing
symbols in the dirt, cutting herbs, and cutting carrots (sacred stew...). I'm
something of a "kitchen witch"...

Next question? <g>

I didn't want to say it Kami, thanks. I assumed he wasn't Wiccan, or probably o
of any Euro-trad.
What's the controversy with Robh?? IS he going to go into a Ceremonial Rant...
<<Hold on to your hats...>>

???  I don't know what Kami was worried about, that's exactly what
an athame is, a knife.  Do you really think I'm THAT anal about these
things?  >8)

your right, i'm not wiccan, or of any pagan tradition.  i'm here because
i got sick of the religion .cf, that's all...

#12-No Robh, but it's fun to bait you...:)
Jon, what's the religion .cf? Another confer?? Who hangs out there?

There is a religion conference here on Grex, but I don't think
I've ever been there.

It figures!:)

give me that old time religion, give me that old time religion, give me that
old time religion, it's good enough for me!  >8^()

huh?

fuz- "old time religion" is one of the longest, silliest songs in the standard
Pagan repertory.  It's about all the various pantheons and traditions out
there. It's rather broad humor, I suppose.  Get someone to sing it for you.

It *is* a classic!!!
We should have a section for songs. I suppose the Lord of The Dance section 
would work.

that's what I started it for.
Any favorites for Solstice?

Summer Pagan songs to me....are about love:)
And all that entails, especially under the moon, on a warm night!
Hmmmmmm, I think I'm feeling Pan here}:)

There
There's a lovely one like that for Lughnasadh on Mothertongue's _Firedance_
tape.

IO, PAN.  IO, PAN.  (Sorry, I just had a Aleister Crowley flashback).

IO: in out? <g> seemed fitting somehow... (yup, sick mind.  we knew this)

IO Pan INDEED!
A very appropriate chant!:)
I like the In Out part Kami.

You know, I never thought of it in those terms.  (I read most of Crowley
in my pre-computer days.)  I think that I just made a Freudian pun.

Is that a Freudian Pan?

I  would have tried that one myself, but I was afraid 
that I might cause a panic or worse yet, pandemonium.  
This seems to be turning into an absolute pandemic of
bad pan puns.  Did I mention that I considered being
a stand-up comedian, but it didn't pan out?
Arghhhh!!! (as the big hook yanks me off stage).

Argh...ACK, ACK!!
I was used by the system, I swear.

ROTFL

Eh...?? Come again...?:)

Hehehee....ROTFL!!!

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