I don't know whether this has been mentioned here before -- I haven't had
alot of time to catch up lately.  ;)  

If you consider yourself a pagan and would be interested in having your nose
counted in the first national pagan census (The Pagan Census Project)
please send me a SASE (business sized, first class stamp) and I'll be happy
to send you a copy of the census form, which you are free to copy
and distribute to anyone else you know who is interested in being
counted.

        Pagan Census Project
        2059 Harding Avenue
        Ypsilanti, MI   48197

btw, I have no part in the Census poject, this is just my way of 
"passing it on".

42 responses total.

I got a copy elsewhere, but it is a good survey that covers a lot of ground

Yes, this census is a very good thing!  It'll help prove to skeptical
governments/judegs/whoever that Neo-Paganism is a real religion, not
just something imaginary we're making up.

this thing's everywhere these days! go ahead and complete it, but don't for
get and do it over, or the results get skewed.

Thanks to Uther Locksley, the Pagan Census is now available
on-line right here on Grex.  "!more /u/robh/pagan/census" from
the Ok: prompt.

thanks, rob.  by the way- what do you do with old digests? I don't want to
take up disk space, but I do want to be able to refer to them.

Given the small amount of disk space we have right now, and
the large size of the digests lately, I'm only keeping the
three most recent ones online right now.  If you need a
particular digest, I have all of them for the last two years
on my floppies here at home, I can upload one and mail it to you.
Just let me know.

super- I am much relieved.

I think a pagan census is a good idea though i really dont know what it is

It's around.  I believe someone has a copy of it on line, yes?  It was put
together by some reputable and responsible people in the Boston area.  I know
Andras but not the university person he's working with.  One purpose is for
us to find out who "we" are.  Another is so we can use comparatively accurate
numbers when looking for fiscal and public legitimacy as a religion and
community.

I had a copy, but had to delete it because of the disk crunch.  I
might have saved it locally somewhere, I'll look if there's
interest.

uh oh.  I ditched mine, since I figured you had it.  Think I may have hard
copy somewhere.

If anyone still needs a copy, I think I know where I have a hard copy still.

well looks like I missed the boat on this topic, but I'm hoping my question
is close enough to the topic. I'm an well i guess an agnostic pagan if such
a thing exsist, I guess part of it goes with I've never really talked to a
pagan, wiccan, druid, etc on the matter. I'm kicking myself for not asking
this question before I left Ann Arbor for college in arizona because at this
school I'm forced into the perverbial closet for pagans. But I'm wondering
what's Paganism in a nutshell? I know this question will evoke several varying
responses since everyone has their own views on religion but I just want to
get a sense of things. Thanks.

You want the short response, then.

Pagan is a blanket term. It has three common uses.
(1) Anyone who practices a spirituality not recognized by the Big Three of
Judaism, Christian, and Islam.
(2) A practitioner of a religion based in large part on the folk traditions
of Europe and the Mediterranean basin, outside of the Big Three, and possibly
incorporating elements from the Big Three or outside that geographic region.
(3) A Neo-Pagan

Neo-Pagan: Someone who practices a Pagan (def. 2, usually) religion which was
primarily developed during the 20th or late 19th century.

Wiccan: Some fairly universal beliefs in Wicca include the worship of a God
and Goddess as complementary forces (although some feminists exclude the God
in actual worship), a belief in karma, a worship of fire, earth, air, and
water as the basic elements of the universe and as metaphors for a double
balance, worship which involves moving from the mundane to a spiritual realm,
observation of the moon's cycle, and the sun's. Wiccans haveeight holidays
spread around the year, and tend also to worship each full moon. Wiccans tend
to practice magick, but shy away from negative energy. Most Wiccans accept
the Rede in one way o another: An It Harm None, Do What Thou Wilt, which
encapsulates three Wiccanconcepts: Don't harm people, be responsible for your
own actions, and act freely according to your own conscience.

Druid: Kami should answer

Asatru: A Norse system of worship, usually NeoPagan. Elements of it are
jarring to many Pagans, such as the Boast, where you brag in ritual about good
things you've done. Done right, Asatru emphasizes the importance of high
self-esteem to building community. Done wrong, thy're arrogant buttheads. =}

An agnostic pagan?  Hmm, if "agnostic" means "not sure about the existence
of the gods", then I guess I've known many of them.  If by "agnostic", you
mean "I think I'm pagan but I'm not sure", then I've run into a fair number
of those, too. Doesn't invalidate your sense of your own spirituality, just
gives you a starting point.

Brighn- well spoken!  Clear and concise.  Coolness.
But what makes you think I can do anywhere near as good a job about the
Druids?
Try this;
Where most Wiccans tend to be duotheistic- a Goddess and a God, who may wear
many forms and names, Druids and Asatruar tend to be polytheistic; the gods
are each individual and should be addressed as such.  Depending on the "brand"
of Druid, they may work specifically with Celtic deities as the Asatru work
specifically with Norse/Germanic gods, but other folks calling themselves
Druids work with gods from anywhere in the IndoEuropean world. They may be
inclined more toward structured, public worship and community building, while
most Wiccans tend toward small, tightly-knit groups.  There is more of
research and spiritual exploration and less of the extatic communion which
is considered desireable in Wiccan ritual.  The Asatru and some of the Druids
seek to bring a sense of the spiritual into the practice of daily life, and
many Wiccans experience it as intrinsic; not through small personal rituals
so much as a basic reverence for nature and the workings of divinity in daily
life.  Asatru may use formal deity-based magic, Wiccans use both deity based
and energy based magic within and outside of ritual, but most Druids use very
little magic or spell-crafting and more of directed prayer.
That help?

>jarring to many Pagans, such as the Boast, where you brag in ritual about
Um, Brighn, that's not quite right; a Boast or Bragi is a way of thanking the
gods for the successes of the past year while also owning those successes,
and of strengthening yourself to do more by making vows for future
accomplishments which will be successful partly through the good will of the
gods.  That's why it's done in ritual and not just sitting around the bar.
The beer or mead drunk in a Bragi is shared with the gods, not just a way to
get drunk; as alcohol has suffered an alchemical transformation which makes
it more "potent", so ingesting it is to bring that transformation to the folks
who imbibe it, and so make *them* "more potent"- more godlike, I guess. Most
peoples of the world seem to have that concept in one way or another, and
occasional cautionary  tales about the dangers of taking that particular
alchemy too lightly or too far.

Darkwolf, is that helpful, or more confusing?

:)  Good to see some action out here.  I'm hoping that the reason it's 
not very active is that we are in our lives!

Keep searching Darkwolf, you'll find what you need to.  I did some 
short searches and found this, from the Witches Voice.
http://www.witchvox.net/wotw/home/arizona.html

I understand your caution, people are still in danger for their 
beliefs.  But I'd encourage you to take some careful risks and look 
around.  I made quite a few wrong turns, but in the end found a 
connection with the divine that works for me.

Good luck!

Kami and Brign, great descriptions.  For the most part I follow Brign's 
#1.

-Scott

Kami> Re: The Boast. I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek and/or simplisitc
with that description. Also, having been to both SLG Boasts (Druidic) and
Har's Hall Boasts (Asatru), I'd have to say that "real" Asatru boasts do come
off more arrogantly, less growth-through-thanking/communion/owning. The
purpose is roughly the same, and the reality rusn somewhere between the
extremes set off by your description and mine.

Re: Druidry. BTW, I didn't mean to snub out Rob or anyone else who wanted to
answer, Kami just came to mind because she's more bardically inclined than
Rob.

In general, I'll go with your comments, and not bother with the minute
disagreements. ;}

Brighn- which were you considering to be "real" Bragi?
Hmmm- arrogance, if that's the right term- might well be a cultural Norse
virtue. <g>

Thankyou guys for answering some of my questions some things such as some
different categories of paganism. I also realize I still have some soul
searching to do in order to anwser some questions that only individuals can
answer.  I propably shouldn't do the soul searching in between my physics
homework and my engineering homework. I do have another question which I'm
quessing will evoke a lot of varied responses what's the view on millitary
services in the various families of paganism?

Yup, varied. <g>
Ranges from an almost Hindu sense of Karma; not to hurt any living being, to
a sense of the heroic; if the gods are on our side, then we'll have the 
valour to succeed. So Asatruar tend to be ok in the military, and some Celtic
reconstructionists.  Some Wiccans are ok with it, but I'm not quite sure how
the rationale works.  More Wiccans are pacifists, or willing to fight in self
defense- so more likely to  be in the coast guard than the army.  that help?

That pretty much covers it I'm in the Air Force ROTC so I waas just wondering
about the views on the matter. Thanks.
.]
.,

#18> I thought that was clear from my comments. I would consider that Har's
Hall boasts, which they do at most of the events I've been at, are more
typical or "real" Asatru than something SLG sticks into an annual event
because it's neat. SLG isn't Asatru.

Um, from what little conversation I've had with the Har's Hall folks, my
impression is that they've had limited sources of information to start with.
Moreover, the Asatru follks are a bit of a mixed bag; some are really educated
and sincere, both.  Others are, perhaps, well meaning but pretty shallow in
their experience.  So I guess my point was that their version of a "boast"
may or may not be particularly close to the spirit and practice of a
traditional Bragi.  Dunno.  My experience is pretty limited, too.

considering the original SLG Boast was based on Har's Hall's interpretation...

Exactly.  So neither is a particularly complete representative sample.

*shrug* This has taken what was meant to be a cute side comment far beyond
any point of sense, and further comment shall be made in private.

It would be more interesting, I guess if there were other Norse Pagans or
Asatruar reading this conference and able to comment.  Or if the discussion
were to broaden out into the accuracy and validity of reconstructionist pagan
movements in general.

Define "reconstructionist." I already got my ass chewed off about that so much
I was bullied out of using the word entirely.

        Learn not to argue with huge mean wearing animal horns (and
especially not if there doesn't seem to be any hat or possible way for them
to be attached).

these were women, actually.

Um, was I one of the people doing the "chewing"?  I think I generally try to
be moderate and gentle, even in my diatribes. 
Anyway, I guess I'm using "reconstruction" because I think that Clanada
naGaelica (sp?) and Asatru, etc. call themselves that.  And "re-creation"
makes me think of the SCA.  Did I mistake the proper term?  Anyway, I mean
modern pagan movements which are based in a particular culture but not
necessarily a direct and unbroken descendent of it.  So my friend who's
Lithuanian and involved with Romuva, the Lithuanian traditional religion
society, is not doing Lithuanian reconstruction, she's practicing Lithuanian
folk tradition.  Am I making sense?  Does anyone else know if that's standard
usage or not?

I used "reconstructionist" to mean "those who attempt to reconstruct the old
ways and live by them."
I was told very loudly by two fair damsels from Har's Hall that
"reconstructionist" means "those who examine the old ways and incorporate them
into the modern world" (roughly).

So, to me, a Celtic recontructionist would build themselves a stone house,
eschew electricity, run a farm, make their own mead, etc. etc.

I don't see any particular reason for using a term for "movements based in
a particular culture but not a direct descendent," since that's the majority
of pagan culture, and is (to me) a half-assed way of going all-out... that
is, in Biafra's words, "nostalgia for an age that never existed."

Maybe I should just go get my rant and post it here. It was in JULES.

"Reconstructionist" doesn't have a standard definition. It's one of them
community terms that nobody outside of Paganism gives two shits about.

Sounds like we're getting mired in a symantic debate.  What exactly was 
the original thread here?  A discussion about weather a pagan can be in 
the military?
I LOVE that quote brighn:)

In my opinion...  I can't imagine a living religion that doesn't 
recognise the need for every role in society.  EVERY role.

As for the reconstructionist, etc... since we are living in the 
present, all religions are based on a past and hopefully striving to 
help us deal with the present.

well, yeah, we're discussing the definition of a word. That would be a
semantic debate.

Oooooh.  Ok, I think I see what the problem is...

*Stares at brighn*

Apparently those sensitivity training classes haven't paid off yet?

-Scott

Whatever.

My appologies to all.  I should've ignored the message.  Bad 
Scott...Bad.

-Scott

Hmm.  My sense is that you often take the most severe or exacting
interpretation of a word or idea.  While it might be more correct, it might
not always facilitate discussion.  
I think I'd call the "living as if..." re-creation, I'd think. It's not very
realistic.  But bringing traditional cultures forward to modern life can be
a cop-out *or* it can be a good forward-extention of the ways things were.

Perhaps what we're really asking is what is the *core* of a belief system;
the large-scale details of daily life, such as the house, energy source and
transportation, or the myths, rituals and sense of place in society.  I tend
to see the latter as being able to adapt to changes in the former without
losing its spirit.

        It'd seem to make more sense to me, as well, but then there isn't much
market for systems and network specialists in Olde Ireland, so I'm biased.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss