This is the general astrology item.  My purpose is to discuss the
practice of astrology.  Of course, as is the way of such things, we'll
probably talk about a lot more than that.  The one thing I'd like to avoid
(at least in this topic) is to do horroscopes.  With that in mind, let's
begin.

175 responses total.

     Ok, let's get some basic facts down first.  The first thing to
remember is that astrology is far more than what you see in the newspaper
horoscopes.  That is a legitimate branch of astrology, but it is only one
and a somewhat limited branch at that.
     To show you what I mean, let's take the most basic element in the
astrological picture, the birth chart.  This chart is constructed by
placing the sun, moon and planets on a circular chart that shows their
positions relative to the stellar background.  The view is from the place
on Earth, and at the time of the native's birth.  Obviously, the sky looks
different from Ann Arbor than it does at the same time in Paris.  Also,
the sky looks different at 6:15 A.m on June 22nd than it did at midnight
on Christmas Eve in 1945.
     The chart shows a wheel divided into twelve equal segments to signify
the twelve signs of the zodiac.  The planets (including the sun and moon)
each appear to be in one of the signs.  The astrologer places each planet
in its sign, at its degree on the chart.  There are ten planets, the sun,
the moon, and the eight other planets in the Sol system.  In addition,
there are four critical points: the ascendant, the descendant, the medium
coeli (midheaven) and the immum coeli.  The ascendant and descendant are
respectively the points where the eastern horizon and western horizon
intercept the ecliptic.  I'm less clear on what the mc and ic actually
are, but they represent something like the zenith and opposing point at
any given moment.
     More later.
     Chris

Chris,  I dunno if this is where you'll want to put it, but the mini-quiz
you gave me might be fun here somewhere.

Is anyopne here familiar with the Arabic points?  I've looked into them
a little, but while getting the formulas for calculating them is pretty easy,
finding explanations for them isn't.  The Point of Fortune, for instance. 
Mine falls in close conjunction to my MC...but what does that mean?  That
I'll be lucky in my public/career dealings?  (Hah!)  or that I'll grow through
my efforts at career/public projects?  or what?

     The following is an article written by the sysop of the Astrology
roundtable on GEnie, and is reproduced here with his permission.


     
                Discovering Wholeness in the Horoscope:
                A Structural Approach to Interpretation
     
                             By Ed Perrone

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  This article originally appeared in slightly edited form in Llewellyn
  Publications' 1992 SUN-SIGN BOOK.  Copyright 1991, 1993 by Ed Perrone.
  All rights reserved.  The electronic version of this article is
  distributed through the GEnie Astrology RoundTable by permission of
  the author.  Unauthorized reproduction or distribution prohibited.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

     
     
     Perhaps the most revolutionary idea to emerge from this century's
astrological renaissance has been the concept of interpreting the horoscope "as
a whole."  Variously called the "holistic" or "Gestalt" approach to
interpretation, this perspective views the natal horoscope as a complete and
integrated whole-entity -- an entity that has meaning and significance of its
own, beyond merely the sum of the meanings of its individual component parts.
     
     The concept of interpreting the chart as a whole has made great inroads
into astrological thinking since it was first introduced some 50 years ago by
Dr. Marc Edmund Jones in THE GUIDE TO HOROSCOPE INTERPRETATION.  In that
groundbreaking book, Jones turned astrologers' attention away from simple
planet-in-sign-and-house combinations and toward the underlying organizational
structure of the horoscope itself considered as a unified and coherent whole.
     
     From this perspective, the actual shape, structure, and orientation of the
chart have important meanings, regardless of which particular planets may be
found where within the chart.  Jones's approach was to classify a horoscope
into one of seven distinct "planetary patterns," based on the way in which the
planets were distributed around the chart's circumference.

     Jones associated each planetary pattern with a specific type of
personality, and he described the broadly based qualities that are
characteristic of each pattern-type.  But it should be clear to anyone who
seeks a holistic perspective on the horoscope that Jones's approach holds far
greater potential than simply providing us with a few general personality
characteristics.  The planetary pattern reveals the fundamental "wholeness"
that is contained within the horoscope.  By making that wholeness the guiding
factor in the interpretation, we can gain tremendous insights into the
consciousness of the whole person whom the chart represents.

     As astrologers' psychological understanding has increased over the years,
more and more of us have sought to add this holistic dimension to our
interpretations.  An increasing number of books and articles speak of the need
to "synthesize" the individual factors in the chart or to interpret the chart
"holistically."  Jones himself said that an "accurate astrological delineation
not only requires that the horoscope be approached as a whole...but also that
the interpretation be ordered according to the whole at each stage of
analysis." <1>

     So -- How do we organize the interpretation "according to the whole" at
each step of the way?  How do we synthesize the many horoscopal factors into an
interpretation that is meaningful and significant to the unique human
individual who sits before us?

     The idea of a "holistic interpretation" sounds quite simple on the
     surface,
but its real import is actually quite radical in scope.  For if we are to
achieve a truly holistic understanding of a horoscope (and, thereby, of the
consciousness of the person whom the chart represents), then we must change our
entire methodology of interpretation.  We must abandon the ingrained
one-factor- at-a-time approach to interpretation and replace it with a
completely new interpretive procedure that, at each step of the way, is based
upon and guided by the innate wholeness of the chart itself.  We must use the
structure of the horoscope not simply to give us another tidbit of information
about the native's personality, but to serve instead as the primary integrative
factor that organizes and prioritizes the entire interpretation.

     Symbolically, of course, interpreting the chart as a whole is simply the
astrological application of the very obvious fact that every person is a "whole
person" who is more than just the "sum" of his or her separate "parts."  You
can't take a person apart and find identity (Sun), emotions (Moon), mind
(Mercury), values (Venus), activity (Mars), and so forth, each neatly packaged
in its own distinct little "box" in the person's psyche.  Instead, all of these
personality functions interact continually with one another in a wide variety
of complex ways.  The result is a complete human individual in which no single
psychological factor can be totally understood in isolation from all the
others.

     Such isolation, however, is exactly what we achieve astrologically when we
proceed through the interpretation of a horoscope a single factor at a time.
The traditional piecemeal approach to interpretation -- examining the Sun
first, then the Moon, then the ascendant, and so on -- destroys the inherent
wholeness of the chart by relegating each horoscopal factor to its own separate
little box.  Just as importantly, this traditional approach uses an externally
imposed sequence of interpretive priorities, which may or may not be relevant
to the psyche of any individual client.

     When we place the Sun first and Pluto last in the interpretive sequence,
for example, we are implicitly saying that the Sun represents the "most
important" function in the person's consciousness, while Pluto represents the
"least important" function -- priorities which are not necessarily appropriate
to every human individual.  Any such "standard" interpretive sequence is really
little more than a set of "cookbook" priorities that tries to squeeze unique
individuals into a standardized, least-common-denominator mold.
     
     But haven't you seen horoscopes in which Pluto's significance, for
     example,
far outweighs that of the Sun?  Horoscopes in which Neptune is more important
than the Moon, or than Venus?  Isn't virtually every interpretation, in fact, a
unique experience that must be approached in a somewhat different fashion from
all the others?
     
     If we actually believe that each person is truly unique and individual,
then how can we accept the idea that a single set of interpretive priorities is
equally applicable to everyone?
     
     This is what Marc Jones meant when he said that the interpretation must be
"ordered according to the whole" at each step of the process -- a theme that
has been increasingly echoed by other astrological writers.  And if we take
that theme seriously, the obvious conclusion is that the actual sequence of any
interpretation must be as unique as the individual for whom we're interpreting.
We must focus on the individual's priorities and emphases, wherever they may
lie.  And we discover those priorities within the horoscope itself and in the
"wholeness" that makes it unique.

     When we look at the chart from a holistic point of view, we are actually
looking at its internal organizational structure -- the horoscope's "form," or
how the chart is "put together."  Dane Rudhyar once defined "form" as "the
essential patterning or relationship of parts within a whole....Form is a
complex of relationships:  a total formula of relationships of parts to parts
and parts to whole." <2>
     
     It is this "total formula of relationships" that shows us the chart's
wholeness, and that formula is embodied in the actual structural organization
of the planets within the chart.  There is nothing mystical about the concept
of wholeness.  It is simply an understanding of the way the chart is put
together. By looking at the horoscope's internal structure -- in terms of the
chart's shape, its orientation, and the various sets of aspect-relationships
that link the planets in interpretively significant ways -- we are able to see
clearly the various emphases and de-emphases within the chart.  These internal
structural accents are the "wholeness" of the chart.  They correspond precisely
to the emphases and de-emphases that exist within the native's own
individualized consciousness.

     By allowing the form and structure of the complete horoscope to guide the
interpretation, we avoid forcing our clients into a standardized cookbook mold.
Instead, we allow the client's own set of inner "priorities in consciousness"
to emerge clearly and distinctly through the horoscope.  Understanding those
unique priorities enables us to provide an interpretation that accurately
reflects the complex psychological makeup of the whole person who sits before
us.

     Determining the planetary pattern ala Marc Jones should be the initial
     step
in any structurally based natal interpretation.  But when we place the chart
into a particular pattern classification, we are not (as is so often done)
simply trying to determine a set of the native's personality characteristics.
We are instead getting a handle on the chart's internal structure and the way
in which that chart is organized as a whole-entity. The planetary pattern leads
our eye automatically to the specific planetary groupings and aspects that
reveal to us the structural foundations of the chart as a whole.

     Each planetary pattern is characterized by one or more specific aspects or
planetary formations that are used to identify the pattern itself.  Jones's
"seesaw" pattern, for example -- in which the planets are divided into two
groups roughly opposite one another in the chart -- is generally centered
around an opposition aspect that links the two planetary groupings.  By placing
a chart into the seesaw pattern, we are actually singling out the planets that
form this defining opposition.  They become the key factors in unraveling the
structural wholeness of such a chart.

     Similarly, Jones's "bundle" pattern, in which all of the planets are
gathered within one-third of the chart, is defined by a trine aspect that forms
the pattern's boundaries.  And again, the planets that form that defining
aspect -- in this case, a trine -- become the primary initial ingredients in
our interpretation.

     These key aspects or planetary formations in the planetary pattern give us
the starting-point for our interpretation.  As the structural "foundations" of
the chart, they represent the functions of consciousness that play the major
role in the organization of the native's psyche.  We should interpret these
planets first in the interpretation, no matter which planets they happen to be;
because in terms of the person who sits before us, these planets (and the
aspects that link them) represent the central, organizing functions of the
person's consciousness -- that person's topmost inner priorities.
     
     After determining the planetary pattern and its defining aspects, we
     should
note any major planetary formations (grand trine, X-cross, T-cross, etc.) in
which one of the primary "foundational" planets may be involved.  Our goal here
is to link the first-priority planets with the rest of the horoscope in a
logical way that continues to reflect the chart's own internal structure and
priorities.  We are, in effect, "building outward" from the chart's structural
foundation by integrating more and more planets into the interpretation in a
sequence derived from the nature of the chart as a whole.
     
     Having moved through all of the major planetary formations that may be
found in the chart (in a sequence that "builds outward" logically from the
initial planetary pattern), we proceed through the chart's remaining planets,
using their aspects and their relationships to the already-interpreted planets
to integrate them into the complete interpretation. Throughout the process, our
procedure and sequence should consistently follow the horoscope's own unique
internal structure via the planetary aspects -- the "linking" and organizing
factors in the chart.  In this way, we automatically establish our interpretive
priorities in a way that is meaningful and relevant to the client, not imposed
upon him or her from the outside.
     
     
     The horoscope of Mahatma Gandhi (Figure 1), which contains two
     well-defined
internal structural patterns, provides an excellent example of how to proceed
through a structurally based interpretation.
     
     The traditional way of looking at Gandhi's chart, of course, would be to
interpret Sun in Libra, then Moon in Leo, then Libra rising, and so forth --
taking each little "piece" of the interpretation one factor at a time and in a
standardized sequence that provides little comprehensive meaning or holistic
insight.  How would a structurally based interpretation differ?
     
     Using the structural approach, we would first attempt to understand the
basic "wholeness" of Gandhi's chart by determining its planetary-pattern
classification.  The planetary pattern gives us our starting-point and
automatically orients our interpretation in a synthetic, holistic direction.
     
     I would classify Gandhi's chart under the "tripod" pattern described by
Dane Rudhyar in PERSON-CENTERED ASTROLOGY.  This is a pattern not originally
formulated by Marc Jones, but one which seems to hold significant meaning in
many instances. <3>  Rudhyar's "tripod" and "fourfold" patterns, when added to
the seven patterns originally described by Jones, provide a total collection of
nine planetary patterns that can be used to discern the underlying structural
foundations of virtually any horoscope.
     
     The tripod pattern occurs when the planets in a chart fall roughly into
three distinct groups organized around a grand trine formation.  In Gandhi's
chart, the three planetary groupings are:  Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, and
Saturn at the chart's left; Jupiter, Pluto, and Neptune at the right; and Moon
and Uranus at the top.  These groups of planets are broadly arranged around the
grand trine formation (Saturn, Neptune, Moon) in the fire signs.

     Thus, by placing the horoscope into the tripod pattern, we automatically
see that the grand trine formation is of primary importance in Gandhi's
consciousness, because the grand trine forms the structural foundation of the
horoscope.  Our interpretation should therefore begin with an examination of
this planetary formation as an integrated unit (i.e., what does a grand trine
in the fire signs mean, in and of itself?); and it should then proceed to
examine the three component planets of the grand trine (Saturn, Neptune, and
the Moon) individually by sign and house, and in their interlocking trine
relationships with one another.

     When we have thoroughly interpreted the meaning of the grand trine, the
next step is to bring the other planets into the interpretation -- not at
random or in some pre-programmed sequence, but by examining the structure of
the horoscope itself to determine where the chart's own internal priorities
will lead us.

     Major planetary formations, especially those directly linked in some way
with the chart's structural foundations, form the next level of interpretive
priorities.  In Gandhi's chart, the structural approach leads us to the very
prominent T-cross in the fixed signs -- a formation that is linked to the grand
trine in fire signs via the Moon in Leo.
     
     Again, we interpret this formation first as an integrated structural unit
in its own right, and then in terms of the specific planets that make it up.
This T-cross is particularly complex, because it's composed of five planets:
two conjunctions opposite one another, both of which are squared by the Moon.
All of these various relationships must be considered and integrated into the
complete interpretation.  Also, since the T-cross and the grand trine share a
common planet (the Moon), the meanings of these two formations must themselves
be united in the interpretation.
     
     By the time we've concluded this level of the interpretation, we've
     already
worked through seven of the horoscope's ten planets.  And we've done so in a
truly holistic manner that emphasizes the integrated relationships that exist
among the various planets in the chart.  These relationships, of course,
reflect the corresponding relationships and priorities that exist among the
functions within Gandhi's consciousness.

     To conclude the interpretation, we continue to move from planet to planet
in a structurally based sequence reflecting the chart's own internal
organization and pattern.  I would interpret Uranus next, because it is related
to both the grand trine (through its square to Neptune) and the T-cross
(through its trine to the Venus-Mars conjunction).  These aspects "tie in"
Uranus to the both of the major planetary structures in the horoscope.  I'd
then examine the Sun, which is linked to only one of these formations (the
grand trine) via its opposition to Neptune.  And finally I'd interpret Mercury,
which essentially stands alone in the chart, unrelated to any other planet
through a major aspect (a fact which is itself interpretively significant!).

     
     We can sum up this structurally based sequence of interpretation as
follows:
     
     1.  The planetary pattern and its characteristic aspect or
         formation;
     
     2.  Major planetary formations (grand cross, grand trine,
         T-cross), if any, that tie directly into the planetary
         pattern;
     
     3.  Other major formations, if any (generally linked via major
         aspects to the previous formations);
     
     4.  Individual planets linked via major aspects to the
         planetary formations (in the sequence in which the
         formations were themselves interpreted);
     
     5.  Any remaining planets (whose "isolation" or "non-integration"
         into the chart as a whole is usually itself interpretively
         significant).
     
     
     Notice in our interpretation of Gandhi's chart how far we went through the
interpretation before we reached the Sun -- supposedly the "most important"
factor in the chart.  The structural approach, however, shows us that the Sun-
function is really not very important in Gandhi's individual consciousness.
Indeed, Gandhi's major goal in life was to de-emphasize his separate
individuality and ego (the Sun), focusing instead on the universalized
transcendence signified by the tripod pattern and the grand trine.  The
structural approach actually does reveal the native's inner priorities --
priorities we might well have missed by following a cookbook sequence of
interpretation.
     
     Gandhi's chart is fairly easy to organize structurally, because it
     contains
two very clear and well-defined planetary formations. Other charts may not be
so easy to organize -- and you may need a bit of practice to overcome
non-holistic interpretive habits that have become ingrained over the years. 
But if you begin with the planetary pattern and its characteristic aspects, and
then work through the planetary relationships in a sequence that follows the
internal rhythms and focus of the chart, you almost can't go wrong.  By
attuning yourself to the structural wholeness of the horoscope, you can
actually "get inside" the native's consciousness -- which is really the only
way to provide individually relevant and meaningful interpretations.

     
---------
FOOTNOTES
---------
     
     <1> Marc Edmund Jones, THE GUIDE TO HOROSCOPE INTERPRETATION (Wheaton, IL:
The Theosophical Publishing House, 1982), p. 119.
     
     <2> Dane Rudhyar, THE ASTROLOGY OF PERSONALITY (Garden City, NY:
     Doubleday,
1970), p. 354.
     
     <3> see Dane Rudhyar, PERSON-CENTERED ASTROLOGY (New York, NY: Aurora
Press, 1980), pp. 205-208 and 216-218.
     
     
------------------------
NOTE ON THE GANDHI CHART
------------------------
     
Data:  Mohandas K. Gandhi
       October 2, 1869
       7:11 am LMT
       Porbandar, India
       21 N 38
       69 E 36
     
     
     This is not the only version of Gandhi's natal chart floating around. 
     Marc
Edmund Jones, in THE SABIAN SYMBOLS IN ASTROLOGY, uses a birth time of 7:33 am,
yielding a 2 degree Scorpio ascendant and a 2 degree Leo Midheaven; he does not
detail his sources.
     
     The data for the chart I use are from Richard Nolle, based on Lois
     Rodden's
AMERICAN BOOK OF CHARTS (ACS Publications).  Commenting on the "several
conflicting sources" of data appearing in Rodden's collection, Nolle "chose to
use Cyril Fagan's data, because they are apparently calculated from original
Hindu Sidereal birth records" (1984).
     
     I was further inclined to go with the chart Nolle used, ironically enough,
because I thought the Sabian symbols for those angles (four points of the
Ascendant and Midheaven axes) fit Gandhi's character better.  I recalculated
the intermediate house cusps in the Porphyry system.
^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z
^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z

Interesting item.  I've never been especially comfortable with astrology.
This is mainly because I don't recognize myself -- not even a little bit --
in the Virgo "type", in the constellation (so to speak) of characteristics
that the books all say Virgos are supposed to have in common, whatever
the differences between them may be.  I am a Virgo, but I am not a "Virgo".

I have to admit, though, that the personality types described by the
Chinese system are uncannily accurate with regard to myself and my family,
and lots of other people I know.  I am a very typical "Water Horse", and
my wife is a very typical "Wood Horse", and we get along just the way
the books all say we're supposed to.  The typical description of a "Fire
Tiger" that you see in the literature describes my Fire Tiger daughter
so accurately that it's actually funny.  (I'm afraid Theodora Lau's
_Handbook of Chinese Horoscopes_ is way too popularized and scaled down
for the comfort of the serious types here, but that's about my level.

Michael, I am also a Virgo, but not really a "Virgo", by rising sign is Libra 
and I AM very much a "Libra". I think that the Sun sign is frequently not
an accurate indicator of a person, is this so oh astrologers?? 
-Phaedrus

You can't really predict which of several factors in a chart will be most
influential for an individual until you look at how strong those factors
are in the individual chart...now to those of you who are Virgos, but not 
"Virgo"s, well, maybe it would make more sense if someone told you what
aspect of your life was most influenced by your Virgo nature.  Perhaps
Virgo is in your 2nd house, and you tend to approach money with all
the detailed caution and fastidiousness of the typical Virgo...or maybe
it's in your 7th house and you tend to nit pick your partners to death,
or maybe it's in the 6th and you're a very conscientious employee and
mabe just a tad finicky in your food prefs.  Then again, if you have 
a stron Moon, that might be where you identify most strongly, and that
sign may feel right.  You're right, Phaedrus, that the ascendant is most
likely to be what we seem to the outside, and we are often more sold than
anyone else by our own PR.  

For instance, I'm a Cancer with Pisces moon--very watery and emotional.
My boyfriend can tell you about many. many soggy t-shirt nights where
he thought I'd never come out of the gloom...but most of my aquaintances
are more familiar with the LEO side of me, from my ascendant, with
a stellium of planets there, just to make life more exciting.  I have
quite a hankering for pretty clothes, flattery, praise, and a spot in
the sun...and I sport very long, shiny hair--a Leo trait.  It's
only my nearest and dearest that my mistrustful Cancer sun lets near
the softbwatery parts, though.  That happens often in charts where there
are many strong influences.

I looked up some more stuff in Lau's book over the weekend.  It 
really is amazing how accurate her portraits are.  My son is a Wood 
Rat, for instance, and she describes him to a tee: his very early 
talking, his great verbal facility, his affability and charm, his 
intense interest in cooking and household chores (of all things), 
his philosophical ruminations, his instinct to collect and classify 
stuff.  My daughter, as I noted above, is a classic Fire Tiger: 
boundless awesome can't-sit-still energy, fierce competitiveness, 
now-you-see-her-now-you-don't, obsessively strong-willed, feelings 
easily hurt but quick to heal.  

One problem I've had with the Chinese system is that supposedly 
everyone born in the same year will have the same traits.  That 
seemed awfully unlikely to me, until I said to me wife, "So how 
come the teachers at [the elementary school where she does 
volunteer work] don't say this year's class is mostly quiet and 
serious and affectionate, but last year's class was mostly 
boisterous and scatterbrained and fun-loving, and so on?"  She 
said, "But that's *exactly* what they say!" 

Btw, I've always thought the reason Chinese astrology never caught 
on much in the West is the names of the signs.  Who wants to be a 
snake or a rat or a pig?  (Although Mick Jagger was proud to say 
"I'm a monkey.") 

Yeah, I'm a boar.  That gets lots of snickers from my kids whenever we
eat out at a Chinese restaurant.  ;)  So, what's the Boar like? ;)

Beiing a monkey isn't much better!
What is the origin of the myths behind these signs?? And what about common
astrology, who figured out the connection to the stars?
I'm sure it could only be speculative??!!
-Phaedrus

I'm a dragon, STeve is a cock, Damon a rat and Staci a rabbit.

THE BOAR:  

Honesty, simplicity, great fortitude.  A diamond in the rough.  
Natural and unaffected.  Seeker of harmony.  Doesn't carry grudges; 
seldom even notices the sting of an intended insult.  Calm, 
understanding, genial.  Not sophisticated or wordly.  Good with 
people, but not money.  "[Her] involvements in legal cases are 
often doomed to be long and complicated." 

A socializer, not a loner -- loves parties, will join clubs and 
associations, a talent for social work and fund-raising.  A good 
shoulder for others to cry on.  The sort of person others tell 
their problems and secrets to.  Tends to spoil others, especially 
immediate family.  Unable to say "no" to *anyone* without 
deliberately going against her temperament.  Overgenerous, wants to 
do too much.  This can be a serious problem for her.  

Sensuous, passionate.  Works hard and plays hard.  Robust, free-
spending.  Seems to be blessed with chronic good luck.  

On the negative side, will innocently help herself to anything she 
pleases without thinking about who else might want it or even whose 
it is to begin with; and she won't understand why you're carrying 
on about it.  At her worst, she is capable of pursuing pleasure to 
the point of depravity and corruption.

[For a list of the signs for all years since 1942, 
see the file called /h1b/u/md/chinese.signs]

Wow, thanks, md.  It's uncanny.  I'd argue with some of it...but most
is pretty right on.  (Depraved?  Naw, I'm not depraved. Just lusty!)
;)

Oh good! I'm a Wooden Tiger!!  
I know a little bit about the Chinese zodiac <enuf to know that I am a
Tiger>, but had never heard of the signs being further classified into
Metal/Wood/Earth/Water/Fire.  I'm gonna have to go out and buy some
super-duper huge <and expensive> book about this stuff to see
exactly what it is all about. :)

-marc

Some observations: 

The animal signs come in groups of twelve and the element signs 
come in groups of five, which means that your particular sign comes 
around once every sixty years.  The next generation of Water Horses 
after mine will be born in the year 2002.  

Each of these years -- "the year of the Horse," "the year of the 
Dragon," etc. -- has characteristics of its own.  Persons of 
different signs will fare differently.  Last year was the year of 
the Monkey, for example.  According to Lau, the Boar should have 
suffered from financial and domestic troubles, but should have 
enjoyed a happy year in spite of everything.  We are currently in 
the year of the Rooster, in which the Boar will enjoy a calm 
domestic scene but will experience serious career trouble.  Next 
February 10 begins the year of the Dog.  This frankly will not be a 
good year for the Boar on any front.  

A particular sign will be more compatible with some signs than with 
others.  Glenda and STeve, for example, are a match made in heaven 
according to Lau.  "Happiness and prosperity...deep and lasting 
bonds," etc.

Theodora Lau includes a section headed "When Sun Sign Meets Moon 
Sign."  Virgo calms Horses down a little bit, for example, and 
causes Boars to be brainier and less naive.  

I note that the legendary Water Oxen, who have such an annoying way 
of waiting at one's gate, really do exist.  There was a whole 
generation of them born in 1973.

Interesting.  I seem to be a Water Dragon, born on the first day of the
dragon year, which also makes me an Aquarius.  Maybe that is why my father
has always insisted that I am half fish :-).  Steve is a Fire Rooster,
Damon a Wood rat and Staci a Fire Rabbit.  I'm going to have to check out
some books for further study also.

As an earth boar, I can verify #15 -- so far.  :(

     To get the discussion going here again, does anyone know anything about
the astrological significance of the lunar eclipse coming up on 11/28/93?
What sorts of things does a lunar eclipse signify?  Is it more than the
obvious sun-moon opposition?  Is it a particularly difficult version of this
opposition?

The following is an article written by the sysop of the GEnie Astrology
Roundtable, and is here reproduced with permission.


=========================================================================
 
This article first appeared in Dell HOROSCOPE magazine, September, 1990.
 Copyright 1991, 1992 by Ed Perrone.  All rights reserved.  Unauthorized
 reproduction prohibited.
 
=========================================================================
 
 
                          THE WHEEL OF HOUSES:
                   The Flowering of Human Experience
 
                             By Ed Perrone
 
     The houses of the horoscope may well be the most utilized, yet least
 understood factors in the entire chart. Without reference to the framework
 of houses, a clear, accurate, and comprehensive understanding of the
 nativity is almost impossible, because the houses perform two extremely
 critical interpretive functions.
     First of all, the houses individualize the horoscope, by showing us
 the precise relationship of the Cosmos to a specific location on the Earth
 at a specific moment in time. Without the houses, we have only a "generic"
 chart which is applicable to anyone born at a given time anywhere in the
 world.  But when we establish the chart's house framework, we link those
 generalized planet-in-sign positions directly to a specific point on the
 Earth -- and thereby to a specific Earth-event (most often, the birth of a
 human being).  Through the medium of the houses, therefore, we are able to
 bring to a specific point of focus the processes of Universal evolution
 which are represented by the planetary cycles through the signs of the
 zodiac.  In the case of a human birth, we see those processes as they are
 focalized within and through the consciousness of an individual human being.
     The second function of the houses is to depict the actual
 materialization of the qualities which are latent within the consciousness
 of the horoscope's native.  They show how the person actually uses his or
 her energies in normal day-to-day living.  The houses are therefore the
 most practical and down-to-Earth ingredients in the horoscope.  They tell
 us, for example, whether the native's Mars in Sagittarius will manifest its
 expansive energies in terms of material possessions (2nd house),
 interpersonal relationships (7th house), career advancement (10th house),
 or any other area.
     The horoscope's houses, in short, deal with the tangible and material
 side of life, with the events and activities that take place in the
 physical world around us.  That world is astrologically divided into 12
 areas or "departments" of life, each under the governance of a particular
 horoscopal house. The houses, therefore, give concrete form to the
 intangible qualities represented by the zodiacal signs, showing us the
 actual material structure through which the person lives his or her life.
     The houses' critical importance in an astrological interpretation
 arises precisely because they are so materially centered.  Without the
 houses, the horoscope is simply a compilation of abstract and intangible
 qualities that can be expressed in an almost infinite variety of ways.
 Within the house structure, however, intangible spirit takes on a specific
 material form.  The zodiacal qualities (and the planetary functions through
 which those qualities are expressed) are united with an individualized
 "vehicle" for their expression -- a material means of bringing those
 qualities into actual existence in the physical world.  The physically
 centered house framework is therefore indispensable to an interpretation
 that seeks to be realistic and applicable to day-to-day living.
 
     Yet despite our very real dependence on the houses for both natal
 interpretations and forecasting, astrologers as a group tend to exhibit a
 quite limited understanding of what the houses actually are and how to use
 them effectively.  The continuing clamor for supremacy among the two dozen
 or so different ways of establishing the chart's house framework is only
 the most obvious example of our confusion.  Another, somewhat less visible,
 handicap is our overemphasis on the 12 individual houses and our
 corresponding de-emphasis of the house wheel as a unified and coherent
 whole.
     In THE PRACTICE OF ASTROLOGY, Dane Rudhyar repeats his oft-stated
 contention that "we still consider the zodiacal signs and the houses of the
 birth-chart as separate entities with absolute prerogatives and set
 characters, rather than as sections of complete cycles...having meaning
 ONLY AS PARTS OF A WHOLE" [1] (emphasis Rudhyar's).
     We assume, in other words, that the each house has its own peculiar
 meaning for no other reason than that some age-old tradition says so.  What
 we often fail to see is that the meanings of the individual houses are
 clearly derived from their respective positions within the complete cycle
 of houses, from one through twelve.
     This idea may be a bit easier to grasp if we think in terms of the
 cycles of the transiting planets as they circle the horoscope.  Beginning
 at the ascendant, the cusp of the 1st house, the planet moves around the
 chart through the 12 houses in succession -- an organized and sequentially
 unfolding cyclic process in which each house plays an important and
 integral role.
     This cycle through the houses traces the actual manifestation of the
 planetary energies in the physical world. It shows us how the cycle
 unfolds, in very realistic and practical terms.  The actual sequence of the
 houses forms an unchanging pattern of development through which the person
 passes again and again with respect to every transiting planetary cycle.
     The major implication of this regular cyclic motion is clear:  that
 the 12 "departments of life" to which the houses correspond are not nearly
 so disconnected as we may have imagined.  Instead, we see unmistakable
 evidence of a unified and sequentially unfolding process through which each
 planetary cycle focuses upon each of the 12 life-departments in succession.
 Those separate "departments," for their part, can be integrated into a
 regularly recurring life-pattern, in which the activities in one area build
 upon all the activities that have preceded them and lead into all the
 activities that are to follow.
 
     Four critical "turning-points" occur within each cycle through the
 houses.  These points are represented by the four angles of the horoscope:
 ascendant, IC, descendant, and MC. A simple yet elegant analogy vividly
 depicts the functions of the four angles and their associated houses within
 the context of the complete cyclic process.  Understanding these four
 critical phases, in turn, enables us to make much more sense of the cycle
 as a whole.
     Think of the four angles of the chart as the four stages in the life
 cycle of a plant:  seed, root, stem, and flower. We undergo each of the
 cycles of our lives in a manner that exactly parallels these four stages.
     The ascendant is quite literally the "seed-point" of the chart, for it
 is at this initial phase of any planetary cycle that the seed of the cycle
 is planted.  New ideas come into our minds, "impregnating" them with new
 and higher goals.  We have just emerged from a cycle which brought some
 measure of both success and failure (depending upon how well we utilized
 its energies), along with a great deal of new knowledge.  As a result of
 those experiences, we can now see a little farther and think a little
 bigger.  This first phase of the planetary cycle stimulates us through its
 visions of new beginnings, and it literally plants in our minds the seeds
 of our future activities.
     The IC represents the "root" stage of the cycle -- a quite appropriate
 image, since the IC is the lowest or "deepest" point in the horoscope.  As
 the cycle reaches this phase in its unfoldment, the seed that was planted
 in the 1st house now begins to sprout and to take hold in the ground. We've
 moved to a point at which our new ideas have not only been given some
 preliminary type of form or expression, but they are now even beginning to
 assume a life and a stability of their own.  This phase brings the first
 real "externalization" of the cycle's goals, just as the seed at this stage
 of its growth breaks through the shell that had previously surrounded it
 and begins to partake of the soil in which it lies.
     The descendant represents the "stem" stage of the cycle, in which the
 shoot from the seed first emerges from underground and into the light of
 day.  The seed can now begin to share of itself with the world around it.
 Rather than simply drawing its own sustenance from the world (as it did
 while still underground), the seed is now able to return something to its
 environment as well.  The quality of "interchange" clearly characterizes
 the 7th-house phase of a planetary cycle, which is the period during which
 interaction with other individuals becomes the key factor in propelling us
 along our way.
     The MC represents the "flower" stage of the cycle, when the cyclic
 goals come to their clearest and most vivid fruition.  The flower is the
 plant's "display" to the world around it, the colorful demonstration of its
 reason for being. So, too, do we, in the 10th-house phase of a planetary
 cycle, display our talents and abilities clearly for all the world to see.
 For good or ill, depending on how we've utilized the cycle's energies, we
 "make our mark" on the world during this cyclic phase.
     In the cycle of a plant's life, however, the flower has a more
 important purpose than just showy display.  The attractiveness of its
 bright colors provides the means for the flower to fulfill an even greater
 responsibility:  the formation of a new seed.  As a planetary cycle draws
 to its close, we "distill" the individual lessons and knowledge out of the
 now-concluding cycle, consolidating our accomplishments and establishing
 the foundation upon which a new cycle can begin -- just as the plant
 distills its "life-essence" into the form of a new seed which, as the cycle
 reaches its conclusion, falls to the ground and is planted. Astrologically,
 the planet returns to the ascendant "seed-point" and initiates a new cyclic
 round.
 
     Viewing the houses of the horoscope as the 12 phases in a complete and
 integrated cyclic process adds immense depth to our interpretations.  It
 enables us, for example, to understand the planetary transits as coherent
 processes of growth, rather than merely as disjointed astronomical
 phenomena.  We're able to gauge exactly where we stand within any cyclic
 life-process -- whether we're in the cycle's early and formative stages or
 at a more advanced and outwardly expressive level -- and we can thereby
 adjust our activities accordingly.
     More importantly, perhaps, this viewpoint enables us to tie together
 the actual events that take place in our lives, because it presents those
 events to us as an organized, logical, and sequential progression of
 activities, rather than as simply random acts of "fate."  We can see
 clearly from this perspective how our past activities have formed our
 current situation, and we can understand how both the past and the present
 lead logically and inevitably into the future.
 
     Each planet's cycle through the houses, of course, must be interpreted
 in terms of that particular planet's function and process.  The Sun cycle
 represents a process of individualization; the Moon cycle, a process of
 emotional response; the Mercury cycle, a process of mental activity; the
 Venus cycle, a process of value formation; the Mars cycle, a process of
 physical activity; the Jupiter cycle, a process of personal expansion; the
 Saturn cycle, a process of individual maturity and stabilization; the
 Uranus cycle, a process of group integration; the Neptune cycle, a process
 of mystic unification; and the Pluto cycle, a process of the development of
 will.
     Each of these planetary processes unfolds according to its own unique
 timetable, based on the planet's rate of motion around the horoscope.  All,
 however, follow the same basic pattern of unfoldment:  from seed, to root,
 to stem, to flower, and back to seed again.  We focus the particular
 planetary aspect of our consciousness in each of the 12 life-departments in
 succession, thereby learning the practical use of that particular function
 of consciousness in all areas of physical life.
     The zodiacal signs associated with each house in the natal chart
 represent the inner qualities which we must learn to express in order to
 pass successfully through that cyclic phase and into the next.  We express
 these qualities, of course, in terms of the specific planetary cycle and
 house involved.  Notice that the link established at birth between the
 signs and the houses indicates a lifelong association between certain
 zodiacal qualities and certain physical life-areas.  The nature of this
 house-sign interaction yields profound clues regarding the way in which
 every cycle of our life will unfold.
 
     By understanding the wheel of houses as our own personalized pattern
 of development, we can determine the nature of any life cycle through which
 we pass -- from that cycle's highest and most idealistic goals to its most
 practical and detailed effect on our daily life.  We can catch a glimpse of
 the divine logic that permeates existence and causes nothing to happen
 without a reason.  Most importantly, we can understand the past, the
 present, and the future as a sequential continuum in which each phase
 arises from the previous one and leads into the next.  This knowledge alone
 frees us from the grip of fate and allows us to take control of our own
 destiny.  For when we understand the growth process as a whole, we can
 devote our energies to their highest and most effective use, bringing
 ourselves to the fullest flowering of our potential.
 
 
 
 
                               FOOTNOTE
 
 
     [1] Dane Rudhyar, THE PRACTICE OF ASTROLOGY (Boulder, CO: Shambhala,
 1968), p. 38.
 
 
 

I am an Earth Cock Scorpio who tends toward skepticism.  Could someone enter
some info from both the Chinese and the Western zodiacs about me from the
following info, so I can compare it with my own perceptions?
        Birth info:  5:44pm Friday 14 November 1969 in Detroit, Michigan USA.

        Thanks!

Other asks a simple question, and no-one answers for six months.
SInce I have my Chinese astrology book out for Agora:
Earth roosters:  A powerful intellect couple with a flair for the
aesthetic feminie side of life gives this Rooster a talent for 
nuance and creativity which surpasses that of his square-cut Rooster brothers
and sisters.  Because of his gift of the gab, some find this Earth Rooster
exasperatingly vague and accuse him of not sticking to the point when he  gives
his meandering speeches.  His ability to grapple with abstract concepts allows
him great verbal latitiude but for those who worship the concrete, his mental
wanderings can seem incomprehensible.  But not to  worry:  this Rooster has his
finger on the fact button, too.

I am fascinated by the Chinese astrology methods.
I knew about the different years but where does the Fire, Earth,
Metal, etc. come in?  Could you tell us more, brighn?

Let me make a new item.

I have found a fun book.  _The Only Astrology Book You Will Ever Need_
by Woolfolk (I forget the first name...big surprise!)   She tells
you that this book is for casting a very *basic* chart.  No degrees
etc.  I have been practicing with some of the birth info I have gotten
form some of my Grex friends.  I am finding it fascinating!

I've been using "cookbook" style astrology texts to learn astrology for 20
year.  Always I'd try to learn synthesis and found it jut too complex. 
Finally I've found an author who writes in a way that makes synthesis
approachable!  Is anyone else interested in discussing astrology?  I'd love
to share insights about what I'm learning and learn even more.

I wouldn't mind chipping away at my ignorance...

Yah, me too.  I don't know anything about astrology, except what I've read
in sf/fantasy, which is likely all wrong. :)

Well, the author I ran into who was able to demystify the interpretation of
charts was Steven Forrest.  

He's uses almost Jungian archetypes and explains how to combine them into a

picture that makes sense.  Of course the first pass will be pretty simplistic,
but once you get the hang of it, I suspect (from reading his examples) that

you can get pretty thorough.

For instance you might start by combining the three major influances of
personality:

        The Sun represents your inner self.  
        The Moon represents your instincts.  
        Your Ascendant represents the facade you 
                represent to the world -- your "mask".

So, according to Forrest's method you might describe my son, with his 
        sun in Taurus, 
        moon in Sagittarius, and 
        ascendant on Libra, 

as The Silent One, with the soul of a philosopher, wearing the mask of the
diplomat.  

You might describe my husband, with his 
        sun and ascendant in Cancer and 
        moon in Taurus, 

as The Sensitive, with the soul of an earth spirit, wearing the mask of the
invisible man.  

You might describe me, with my 
        sun in Cancer
        moon in Pisces, and
        ascendant on Leo

as The Sensitive, with the soul of the dreamer, wearing the mask of the
performer.


Each sign has several possible archetypes, though of course they're related.

Hm, interesting.  I kind of like that.

How do you figure out what your sun moon and ascendant are?

your sun is (I THINK) the one you heaR ABOUT ALL the time.
I'm a Virgo. So and so is a capricorn. It's related to when you
were born during the year. The other two you pretyt mucvh have to look up.

Not quite completely true, Jenna.

You're right about the sun sign being the sign you hear about all the time.


But you don't have to do complex calculations to get an idea of your ascendant

If you're born exactly at dawn, you have exactly the same sun and ascendant.

For every two hours after dawn, your ascendant moves forward about 30 degrees,

or one full sign.

(Of course, the time dawn comes varies by the time of year.)

Lets say you were born at 10 am on June 21.  June 21 is the summer soltice,

and the sun is is at 1 degree of Cancer or 30 degrees of Geminii (depending

on the year)  

At the soltice, the sun rises at just about 6am. From 6 am to 10 am is four

hours, so add two signs --> Cancer, Leo, Virgo.  So, you have either a Leo

or Virgo ascendant.  Reading a good description of the two should give you

a very good idea which.

Moon signs, on the oter time, you do pretty much have to look up because 
they change every two days and aren't cycling with the year in any easily 
calculated way.

All I know is I'm a Virgo (sept 2) with a Leo ascendant. Supposedly
your ascendant is where you're really supposed to pick up your traits.
(I was born, btw, at 2:45 am)

Well, it's true that your ascendant is where you get your most *obvious*
traits.  But really, you get traits from your whole chart.

One way to look at it, is that your ascendent is your party self.  The part
of you that you show to large groups or to people you don't know all that
well.

Your sun is the part of you that you show to your closest frinds and family.
People who've gotten your trust.

Your moon is the side of you your mother saw when you were tiny, your closest
lovers see when you're being very intimate, and you sit down alone with when
you need to think.  It's where "gut reactions" and genuine religious beliefs
come from.

As I say, the method I sketched out above is a rough calculation.  you must
have been born very late in Virgo and have a very early in Leo ascendent. 
It happens.  ;)

no... i'm smack dab in the middle of virgo ;}
and most people wouldnt' say I showed Leo traits...
just the people I'm close to

<robh has all three of them in the same sign, which makes him
far too easy to figure out  >8)  >

Val guesses Rob is so scorpio it isn't even funny.

Oh, I think it's kind of cute. <g>

Misty, do you count backwards a sign for every 2 hours before dawn?  And would
the time of dawn have to be ajusted for the region where one was born?

Yes, you'd count back a sign for every couple of hours before dawn.
Yes, you have to calculate from what dawn actually was in that time and place.
Local newspapers up to about the 70s can be a good source for the information
--
and still are in agricultural areas.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss