wendy-who's-not-a-grexer, my roommate, is in her final year as an
anthropology student at eastern.  for one of her classes, she is doing
a research project on the current state of neopaganism/wicca/etc and
is looking for respondents to a survey she has written for this
project.  if you're interested in filling out her survey, please send
some e-mail to wallers@online.emich.edu.  thanks.

93 responses total.

OK.

   thanks!  :)

I sent her email.

Me too.

I sent mail last week, and haven't goten a response yet.  >8(

I filled out the survey and returned it. I'm looking forward to seeing the
results.

Same here.  A bit open-ended to make for easy data, but nice questions.

Yeah, it gave me a lot to think about for later. I hadn't been asked some of
those questions before.

   wendy-who's-not-a-grexer finished the paper yesterday and is working
on sending out the results.  she still has a paper to finish, two more
finals, and graduation on sunday.  she said something today about
sending out the e-mail, but i haven't received mine yet so i'll ask
her about it the next time i see her.  i could have misunderstood what
she said.

   thanks to everyone who replied.  :)

Got mine, will reply tomorrow if I can.  It's not bad,  but definitely
undergrad work.  
Boy, have I gotten snobbish!  Sorry.

How's it  going?

Hi all, haven't been by in couple...more than a couple years.  My 
previous ID was taken when I tried to get it, Phaedrus!  What's that 
about?!  :)
Anyway, hi Kami, Rob and everyone!  Not sure if anyone will remember 
me, but hello:)
How did this this survey turn out?

-Scott

Well, that's what happens when you take your login id from a
popular book, someone else will want it too.  >8)

I'm busy doing priestly things and computer programming and such.
Are you still working for the hospital?

Well, Wendy wrote her paper, then she went away for the summer. I haven't
heard from her lately. Hopefully, she'll respond when fall comes around.

Hi!  What a long time.  What's new?

   otaking, are you talking about wendy-who's-not-a-grexer?

Void!  Another voice back from oblivion... Good to hear from you.
So- anyone have an opinion about the various pagan surveys, their findings
or what they might find?  How many of us do you think there are, anyway?

   i'd guess as many as 10-15% of the population as a whole.

*blinks* 10% of the general population is pagan? you've been living in AA too
long, void.

Are we including world population?

        Then there's your definition of "pagan" too.  It leads me to think of
something descended (however indirectly) from Gardner, whether it shares any
beliefs or rituals with Gardnerian Wicca or not.

true...

let's capitalize and define:
Pagan (with a capital P): A practitioner of a religion which is in whole or
in part developed from assumptions about and/or research on European or
Mediterannean pre-JudeoChristian and/or folk religion.

Wiccan: A practitioner of a religion which is in whole or in part developed
from assumptions about and/or research on European folk religion integrated
into a paradigm similar to the one presented by Gerald Gardner.

        So the Golden Dawn and their ilk wouldn't qualify under either of the
definitions you're proposing ... ?

When I hear "pagan", I think of those who practice earth religions.

   i was thinking in the broader sense of pagan, since it seems to be
becoming an umbrella term.  just as you can have baptists,
pentecostals, lutherans, catholics, etc etc who all call themselves
christians, there are wiccans, taoists, druids, buddhists, strega
(what's the plural for that?  stregi?), etc etc who call themselves
pagan.  even leaving out the eastern religions, i don't think it's
unreasonable to estimate that there are as many pagans as there are
gays/lesbians/etc's.

Buddhists (.e.g) and Native Americans (e.g.) frequently take umbrage at being
lumped in with the "Pagans," and I don't frankly blame them. 

How does Golden Dawn not qualify? I'll adjust my definition to suit them. =}

(a) Yes, I think it *is* unreasonable to assume there's as many Pagans as
there are GLB. there's no justification for comparison. 

(b) I've never seen a reputable source go as high as 15% for gays/Lesbians...
MAYBE if you include bi's, though. I've seen 10% as the upper limit for
gays/Lesbians (usually INCLUDING bi's), and 5% for bisexuals. Of course, *I*
think 90%+ of the population is *born* bi and learn prejudice or preference
through exposure, but hey, that's me. =}

Personally, I'd say there's less than 1% of the population that identify as
Pagan or Wiccan. In English-dominant countries... lower in other countries.

I don't think I'd include GOlden Dawn, etc. among pagans- some magicians are
pagan, but many are Christian, Jewish, or agnostic.  Could even be athiest,
I suppose.  Same goes for OBOD druids.  I agree that most Buddhists, Native
people,  etc. would object to being called pagan.  And the Buddha was/is not
a god, per se.  But hmmm, that's kind of a grey area for me- in beliefs and
practices they are, I think, more congruent with paganfolk than not. <Sigh>

I'll believe 5%-10% tops.
More likely, under 100,000 on this continent, and possibly on all continents
if you're looking for neo-pagans, "earth religions", etc. as opposed to native
non-monotheistic religions.

        The language of the Golden Dawn and the language of many types of
neo-paganism are opposite, one appealing strongly to the sense of order and
rationality and the other appealing more strongly to the sense of the poetic
and emotionally powerful, yet, there are many similarities in the ritual and
in the intent of the ritual, and the connection between the two that tend to
speak in such opposite modes is worthy of note.

        It's an overgeneralization, of course, but in many of the pagan
gatherings that I've been to the Golden Dawn and Thelema are seen as shadowy
(and possibly evil) cousins to neo-paganism, I think because of the two
languages, yet they remain closely connected in my mind, which prompts me to
mention the connection.

        That and most of the Thelamites I know aren't shadowy and evil at all,
and at least one's downright cute. :)

I don't know about "shadowy and evil"- it's mostly hype. <g>
More like, the sense of where the magic comes from- whether it's religion,
philosophy or technique- that separates them.

I think Crowley is generally seen as evil or, at best, misguided, but I don't
think that's generally cast onto GD in general. Thelema, yes.

Good conversation going on here:)

I'm still working at the hospital and am still in A2.  I've been really 
busy too, with work and with priestly stuff.  Working and learning 
spiritually has really taken up the largest part of my time.
Good to hear everyone's doing well:)  How are the local groups doing?  
Sounds like the Druids have really taken over!  What about the other 
groups that were working around here?  It's weird, the names I'm seeing 
now, in Detroit and A2 are no one I know?!  I've been a little out of 
the loop I guess.  Many new faces.

Now this conversation about Pagan...the dictionary definition of pagan 
varies from non-religious people to people who are not christian.  
Which is pretty hilarious really.  I like the earth religion idea.  
Though I'm not exactly sure what that means.  Agrarian based?  I 
consider myself Pagan, at least honorary:), and my own practices are 
not European in origin but African and Afro-Latin.  I guess Santeria 
falls into the folk religion.

As to inclusion or exclusion, couple points:
I can't imagine a christian magician, since doctronally that's 
heretical.  Unless it's a prayer to the standard white jesus or a 
Saint.  I know people who claim to be christian pagan, I even used 
think that was possible, but I'm not sure I accept it anymore.  I do 
welcome an explaination from someone:)

And this talk of Crowely, the GD or Thelemites being shadowy or 
evil...come on.  Really.  I have many very close friends who are 
Thelemite, active at that and none of them are even marginally evil.  I 
think the "Crowely is evil" thing is a holdover from his time when he 
was demonized.  If you read his work it's really quite brilliant, if a 
little spacey.

Seems like Margot Adler's book in the late 80s or early 90s, Drawing 
down the moon, had some stats in it.  I'm not sure about percentages 
but it still amazes me when I hear about christians going to 
astrologers or phsychics!  Even the angel craze is sorta pagan at least 
for protestants.  I think it's pointing out that the mainstream 
religions are falling short.  It's creating a cafeteria relgious 
movement and that has some troubling sides to it but seems necessary.

Brighn, YEA!  I totally agree about your comments about sexuality.  I 
think the ideas about gender that many are raised with are completely 
flawed.  Sex is sex.

Christian Pagan> There's nothing in Paganism that prevents or obstructs the
worship of Jesus as a God. The concept of "Christian Paganism" may violate
some tenets of Christianity, although that depends on how one interprets the
first two Commandments... by saying "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me,"
is YHWH saying that He shall be the *only* God worshipped, or the *most
important* God worshipped? If the latter, then there's no real clash with
PAganism (or, rather, polytheism); many Pagans have a principal deity.

I personally wouldn't count Santeria or Voudon as *P*agan, because the folk
religion part isn't European-based... the European-based part is Catholic.

Christian Magician> How is it heretical? The condemnations of "magic" are
generally condemnations of false magic, and stem to the Commandments again.
The general rule is, if it comes from God (YHWH), it's ok... Joseph was lauded
as a dream-interpreter for the pharoah, even though dream interpretation is
also banned by the Old Testament, because he wasn't using "magic," he was
receiving "revelation" from God. So it's ok. =}

Don't ask ME to explain that logic, but hey, it's what the OT uses.

        My interpretation of the Christian OT's prescription against "having
other gods before me", in light of the OT's prescription against having graven
images of any sort, is that it's an exclusive contract deal. :P

        Re #30:  I wasn't saying that the GD or Thelema is evil;  far from it,
though Crowley might say he was if he were alive, and felt the question
unworthy.  My background is primarily from a GD tradition.  But I've noticed
that attitude among many members of the Pagan community, and even some more
popular Pagan authors, Charles DeLint coming immediately to mind.

... except some faiths interpret "graven image" to include images of God, as
well, and that it refers to having any solid forms of totems at all.

RE: #31
*Nods* I'd like to think that Paganism doesn't reject at all:)  It's 
chritianity that has the problem with it.  And I agree, it doesn't make 
sense, but I'd challenge you to get get an ordained priest or pastor in 
an organised christian path to say that practicing magic is ok.  Again, 
I'm willing to accept it, but I don't see evidence of what you're 
saying.
RE: Santeria.  The tradition that I'm learning and practicing and most 
that I know of don't have any connection to Catholocism.  I think 
that's a bad book and movie stereotype.  Even calling it Santeria 
grinds some people, who call it the Lukumi religion.  
Though the word, Pagan, may have origins in Europe, I like to use it to 
describe myself.  Just feels right:)

RE: #32 Jazz, African traditions get thrown into the evil catagory 
frequently too.  I've heard it said many times before and I think it 
still holds some truth, "never underestimate the ability of an 
opperessed people to oppress".  Sad but true.
Though I have to say the Ann Arbor contigent is incredibly tolerant.

As to graven images!!!  Heh.

        Some folks go even further than that, and have a general prescription
against any sort of art which imitates a human or animal figure, whether it's
"graven" or photographic.  That sounds a bit ridiculous to me, but I can see
where it has it's origin, in the description of the work of a craftsman being
an "abomination unto the Lord".  I don't see a way to interpret the OT fairly
that allows worship of the icons or symbols of diety other than El/YHVH.

re: Christian Magic- Thomas Aquinas, Agrippa, Yeats... Um, C.S. Lewis, and
Charles Williams, too, at least as philosophers.

re: Santeria- certainly it's *neo*- as a decendent/revival of Yoruba religion.
And certainly it's *pagan* in being polytheistic and animistic.  Even if it's
not "neo-pagan" in the sense of European-based, Wicca-influenced modern Pagan
revival.
As to it being Catholic, well, that *was* it's "cover" for a long time,
although I never understood how Chango got to be Santa Barbara.  What am I
not understanding about Santa Barbara?

Jazz- Charles DeLint says very clearly that he is not pagan and tries hard
not to tread upon the toes of pagans, but is a folklorist.  I know- his work
*feels* pagan to me, too.  Oh well.

I thought Charles DeLint was a fantasy writer... *shrug*

Kami, you should know enough not to include "Wicca-influenced" in there were
you do... it's european-based revivalism, there are PLENTY of those who aren't
"Wicca-influenced."

        DeLint is a fantasy writer, and an urban foklorist, insofar as I can
tell, and I'm sure that almost everyone can differentiate between DeLint's
interpretations of Faerie and American Indian mythos and the historical
mythos, but the theme of DeLint's work is very much a Pagan theme, and is an
introduction to some to Paganism as well as one of the more respectable public
images of Paganism.  Yet ... despite DeLint's reasonable treatment of American
Indian shamanism and Irish-Celtic Paganism and a few other schools, he tends
to paint the Golden Dawn in distinctly darker tones.

        Re: The debate on what's pagan and what's Pagan and what's neither:

        Crimeney, and all this time I thought it was about "People Against
Goodness and Normalcy".  I guess I'm going to have to go and get a refund now
for my goatskin leggings and my "Firm Parts:  Pagan God Abs (featuring Apollo
and Cerrunos)" video.  Bah.

You've revealed the secret about Pagans. Now you must die.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss