I'm very interested in learning more about the UU religion, including
whether it is considered to be a religion at all.  From what I've seen
so far, it might be more of a philosophy study group.  What are the
things that all Unitarian Universalists are supposed to have in common?
Services at each UU church are rumored to be much different than each
other.  Are there similarities?  Is "church" even the correct word to
use?  

I'm curious to hear about individuals' experiences with Unitarian
Universalism.  

35 responses total.

It seems to me that there is no *strict* defintion of "religion*, so
everyone can make their own. Usually it involves a belief in some kinds of
supernatural beings that are involved in human concerns. Can everyone
accept that definition for the purposes of this discussion? 

*grin* Not for UU.  As far as I know, in practice, UU accepts atheists and
agnostics as members.

Historically, however, Unitarians were a group that distinguished
themselves from Trinitarians.  The doctrine of the Trinitarian nature of
God (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) was opposed by those who saw God as a unity.
In this country, many of the early founders of the Unitarian movement were
the Existenntalists in the Boston area: Emerson, Alcott, etc. 

Universalists were Protestants who belived everyone could be saved,
not just the elect. Predestination was an anathema to them as a religious
belief.  The two groups eventually merged.

A religious merger?  Cool.  I wonder how often in history *that* has 
happened...  :)

Re #2: are you saying, then, that UU is not a "religion", or that there is
an expansion to the definition in #1 that you would make? If the latter,
what is it? 

re 3: It has happened fairly often.  For example, the Congregationalists and
the Christian church (I forget what adjectives they used to describe their
kind of christianity) merged.  The Evangelical and the Reformed churches
merged.  Eventually, the two merged churches merged to form what is known
today as the United Church of Christ.  

re: 4 The Unitarian Unversalist Church certainly sees itself as a religious
organization; it calls its groups "churches".  However, by your
definition, a group that includes atheists would not seem to be a
"religion".  

How about putting aside the issue of UU being a religion.... and 
instead discussing what the UU church believes or espouses?

FWIW, I am not sure what they teach. 

Leslie and I were married by a minister of the First Unitarian Church
of Philadelphia, which is her mom's church.  I guess as much as we have 
a home church ourselves, that's it.   We go to church services and 
events a few times each year when we are in Philadelphia.
 
This church has a web site at http://www.firstuu-philly.org
which has a page about "What is Unitarian Universalism?"

Re #2: Emerson and the others were called
"transcendentalists."  The existentialists
came later and were considerably gloomier.

The UU web site includes a page for Christian
UUists, which implies that they're not the
norm.  I didn't get very far into the UU site,
although I did note that they boast that their
churches range from old-fashioned buildings
and ministers with vestments, to informal
meetings in people's rec rooms, and everything
in between.  Bible is optional, prayer is
optional.  The agenda seems heavy on social
responsibility, justice, gender equality, and
so on.  I yawned so hard reading it that I
practically dislocated my jaw.

Former Michigan governor James Blanchard is a Unitarian, and he 
once got in some hot water with his more conservative constituents
for telling the following joke:

    "When I was growing up in the Unitarian Church, the only time 
     anyone mentioned Jesus Christ was when the janitor tripped
     over the mop bucket."

Oh, yeah, transcendentalists. Right guys, wrong ism.  

I've tried digging around a bit to answer some of the questions nephi posed
in #0, and I don't think there are any real solid answers.  There is a 
series of historical traditions to the Unitarians & Universalists, but 
they aren't talked about much.  Tonight I'm thinking that the UUs, both
historical and modern, are defined more by what they are *not* -- 
"standard" Christians -- than by what they believe about the spiritual
realm.  First Unitarian Church in Philadelphia announces itself as 
"an intentionally diverse religious community."

Structurally, Unitarians may resemble more a political party than a 
dogmatically-defined church such as the Catholic Church or most of the 
Protestant denominations.  

Ah, there is a nice historical essay on the Unitarian Universalist 
Association web page:
 
  http://www.uua.org/info/origins.html

Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the web, is of UU.

<http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/UU.html>

Re #1
The "supernatural beings" definition of religion that rcurl proposes is
very Western/Traditional....which means that it's not very useful in a 
discussion of UUism.  From what i recall of the last survey, only a
minority of UU's believe in (a) supernatural-beings-style god(s).
   Without bothering to give a definition of religion that includes Zen,
Tao, etc. (non-supernatural-being religions), i'd say that UUism is not
*a* religion, it's a religious community that encourages diverse beliefs 
amoung its members.  Maybe you could call it a meta-religion.
   (This "we're religiously diverse and happily so" situation is a big 
part of why UU web sites tend to be quite murky on UU teachings and
beliefs.  There's no sound-bite-sized creed or summary of theology to
give - what UU's have in common is an approach to religion.)   

   On a related note, a fair number of UU congregations do NOT call 
themselves "churches" because the word tends to imply "modern American
Christianity" and that's not what they feel that they are.  

   Services at UU churches usually fit into a very mainstream Protestant 
framework - music, hymns to sing, a sermon, taking an offering, etc.  (A
UU Pagan, UU Buddhist, etc. event might be quite different.) 


FWIW, here's the closest thing UUism has to a "standard doctrine": 

"We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association,
covenant to affirm and promote:
 - The inherent dignity and worth of every person 
 - Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations 
 - Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in
      our congregations
 - A free and responsible search for truth and meaning
 - The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within
      our congregations and in society at large
 - The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all
 - Respect for the interdependent web of all existance of which we are
      a part.  
"The living tradition we share draws from many sources: 
 - Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in
      all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an 
      openness to the forces which create and uphold life
 - Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to 
      confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and
      the transforming power of love
 - Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and
      spiritual life 
 - Jewish and Christian teaching which call us to respond to God's love
      by loving our neighbors as ourselves
 - Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and
      the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind 
      and spirit
 - Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the
      sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the
      rhythms of nature." 

(Note that this language isn't carved in stone - tinkering and overhauls
are somewhat-regular events.) 

Re #14: "supernatural beings" certainly are not Western. Almost all
Eastern religions invoke supernatural beings, as do all 'primitive'
religions (animistic, etc), worldwide.

Re #15: 
I might agree that almost all Eastern religions have branches or 
popularized versions which involve supernatural beings.  But if you
look at the earlier and/or closer-to-historical-sources versions of
Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism, there really aren't any super-
natural beings.  In Hinduism, it's recoginized that the gods and
goddesses are andropomorphic images of an underlying reality that
might be called supernatural, but definitely isn't a "being".  A
popular Hindu invocation for temple ceremonies is:
   "O Lord, forgive me three sins that are due to my human limitations:
    Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;
    Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms;
    Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations.
    Lord, forgive me three sins that are due to my human limitations."
[From Huston Smith, _The World's Religions_]

Regarding #13, that Berners-Lee link was quite good.  I wonder who else 
considers themselves to be Unitarian Universalist . . . It seems as 
though lately I've been discovering that many of the poeple I respect 
most consider themselves to be UU.  I wonder how many Grexxer's consider 
themselves to be UU . . . 

Regarding #14, Those principles are part of why I find this "religous 
study group" so interesting.  At http://www.uua.org/principles.html, I 
also found this:

The Purposes of the Unitarian Universalist Association 

     The Unitarian Universalist Association shall devote its resources
     to and exercise its corporate powers for religious, educational
     and humanitarian purposes. The primary purpose of the Association
     is to serve the needs of its member congregations, organize new
     congregations, extend and strengthen Unitarian Universalist
     Institutions and implement its principles. 

     The Association declares and affirms its special responsibility,
     and that of its member societies and organizations, to promote the
     full participation of persons in all of its and their activities 
     and in the full range of human endeavor without regard to race, 
     color, sex, disability, affectional or sexual orientation, age, or 
     national origin and without requiring adherence to any particular 
     interpretation of religion or to any particular religious belief or 
     creed. 

     Nothing herein shall be deemed to infringe upon the individual 
     freedom of belief which is inherent in the Universalist and 
     Unitarian heritages or to conflict with any statement of purpose, 
     covenant, or bond of union used by any society unless such is used 
     as a creedal test.

I found a UU church here in San Francisco.  It's a half mile down the 
street from my apartment here.  I plan to attend a service tomorrow 
morning.  

Re #16: that "Lord" certainly is being invoked as a supernatural being -
that is, as a sentient entity. *We* are "andropomorphic images of an
underlying reality", considering that the reality is a quark soup made
up of strings, etc. Using big words doesn't change what is being
done.

Hmm?  Are you saying that the "quark soup made up of strings" should be
considered a god / supernatural being?  I'm not sure I quite caught the point
of #18.

No, I only said that that verbose exposition about andropomorphic images
applies to us. There is nothing supernatural about it (them(us)). The
things being talked about in #16 are, however, supernatural, and never
knew a quark or string. 

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the question mark yet.

At one point, someone was doing a survey to see if Unitarians were still
"christian".  I wish I could remember the exact question they asked, but
I think it may have been something like "do you believe Jesus was
{supernatural/divine/part of god/necessary to believe in to be saved/?},
and not just another regular, if extrordinary person, with some possibly
interesting ideas?"  Apparently, the number had been slowly falling, and
finally dipped below 49%.  So, I suppose that means by some definitions
at least, Unitarians are no longer Christian.

I recently visited Boston, and had occasion to wander around town.  To
the extent UU's have a central organization, it's based in Boston.  I
wandered around Beacon St a bit (the U-U association is housed at 25
Beacon St.) and I think I found it -- there's a bunch of really old tiny
2-story townhouses squeezed together lining a steep brick paved street
with gas lights -- very antique looking -- and if I did find it, then
there are plenty of lawyer's offices that are larger and more
impressive.  In any event, it was after hours, and nothing was open, so
I didn't learn anything further.  So far as I know, the UUA mainly does
3 things: publish books, run retreats, and send some sort of newsletter
out.  I suppose those don't actually require that much office space.  I
also found the local UU church, and that was more interesting.  It was
housed in a big old church, that had burned down, and then been rebuilt.
The only part of the old church left was 2 walls and a bit of the tower.
So, from the right angle outside, you might *think* it was the old
church.  Walking inside, though, and it was a totally different story -
it became clear the rest of the building was thoroughly modern, and
there really wasn't any obvious sign there ever had been an old church
on the site.  This is perhaps as good a metaphor as any for modern
unitarianism.  I think I walked in on a weekday night, but there was
actually quite a bit going on -- meetings and classes and I think
something involving music (a rehersal?) going on.  I never actually
found anyone to talk to - the few people I saw in the halls were in a
hurry to get somewhere and I was feeling much to shy to interrupt
anything, but I do remember reading the bulletin board.  Unfortunately,
I no longer remember what I saw there, other than it seemed to be the
typical stuff one would find in any UU church.  That probably means it
had the usual announcements concerning scheduling events, sunday school,
church activities, perhaps a pile of old sermons, and most likely stuff
about one or more church "projects" for some worthy cause or another -
recycling, helping people in Bosnia or Nicaragua, or some such.

UU doesn't preach that everyone need walk one way, and there's certainly
room for many diverse opinions on things.  Even so, there's quite a bit
of self-selection happening for people who end up spending time around
UU; and that means there is not always quite as much diversity as one
might expect.  The diversity that's there is also not always easy to
spot.  I once visited a UU church with a friend who happens to be a
pagan, and learned something that my parents, who had been attending the
church for years, had never known, and that was there were a sigificant
# of pagans in that UU congregation.  One of the things that's true of
nearly all UU's is that they don't believe there's any necessity to
inflict one's beliefs on anyone else.  So you won't find unitarians out
trying to "Save" anyone, and the idea of a unitarian "missionary" is
practically a contradiction in terms.  Since unitarians were
historically white anglo-saxon protestants, hispanics and blacks are
probably still under-represented in UUism today.

        Although there's a lot of common ground between the open-minded
Christian and the open minded-Pagan, it seems that there isn't that much
common ritual or writing.  What exactly do they do in UU churches during
services, or do they have seperate services for various constituent beliefs?

I attended a service at the "First Unitarian Universalist Society of San
Francisco" this Sunday.  It was very similar to a more traditional
Christian service.  The service started with some J.S. Bach being played
on an organ.  Following that were congregational announcements, some
singing, a "spoken affirmation", a "sun affirmation", more singing, some
stories about childrens books, stained glass, and the history of the
UUA, more singing, a very interesting "African chant" by the choir, more
singing, a sermon about the "free and responsible search for truth and
meaning", and some final singing followed by another piece played on the
organ.  

After the service, the congregation broke into as many different groups
as there were rooms in the attached community center.  I wandered around
the various rooms and remember that one was essentially a "Beacon Press"
book store, one was for welcoming new "inquirers", one was filled with
people pledging time and/or money to various community service projects, 
an so on.  

Of particular interest to me was a room in which the Buddhist interest
group was meeting.  Apparently, this congregation invites "interesting
people" from the various Buddhist traditions to talk about their
tradition.  The fellow invited on this particular day was downright
fascinating.  He has published several books explaining Buddhist
history, and has done extensive translation.  After giving some general
background, he talked about his particular school of thought, which was
a type of Zen that I don't remember how to spell.  8^)  He also led us
through the most rewarding meditation session I've experienced.  

Looking through the events calendar, it appears as though this
congregation also has a "Pagan Interest Circle" that conducts a full
moon service each month.  

s/"sun/"sung

One of the things that's common to both pagans and catholics, actually,
are elaborate rituals.  A significant difference between catholics and
protestants, too, is in how the "writings" are interpreted - in
catholicism, individual interpretation of the bible is discouraged, and
the church interpretation of the bible is what counts.  The RC church
was still using a latin language bible (not accessible to most people)
and even conducting services in latin hundreds of years after the
protestants had split off & published their own national language
bibles.  (Indeed, the invention of the printing press and the printing
of national language bibles was probably instrumental in splitting the
church in the first place.)  A significant number of pagans today are
lapsed catholics; in love with ritual, and perhaps more interested in
finding the pagan foundations of many roman catholic rituals than in
what judeo-christian theology might be left after the inquisition got
through eradicating heresy from the church.

nephi: thanks for the report!  The bit about the special interest groups
was interesting; "our" Unitarian church in Philadelphia does not do that.

        Yes, there are a fair number of people of Catholic upbringing in the
Alexandrian tradition and the more formal Gardnerian, for sure.

        That's an interesting account.  I'm assuming that the Unitarians who
are what one would traditionally call Christian are more tolerant of
non-Christian elements in their church ceremonies, and those that you'd
traditionally call Pagan are more tolerant of non-Pagan elements in their
rituals?  

Re: #22 & #27
Unless it's a specifically-Christian (or -Pagan, or ...) UU church, i
would only expect occasional or muted use of specifically-Xian (or -Pagan,
or ...) elements in a general worship service.  You'd probably have to 
drop in on a Xian (or...) interest group meeting to see something like 
Communion.  (If you don't feel comfortable taking Communion, just sit and
watch - no guilt, no stigma.)

(Don't expect to find active Xian, Pagan, Buddhist, etc. groups in every 
UU church - just like a men's group or potluck circle, you need enough 
interested people with the time, someone with the energy & desire to 
organize it, etc.)

On the level of church politics, my understanding is that the UU Xians
and UU Pagans are fairly close allies. 

        That's interesting, and very good to hear.

Mike's account of the SF church sounds pretty similar to the services I
remember from the Unitarian church I grew up in, in Arlington, VA. 

I think the Unitarian Church is a lot like Grex, and that's a large part
of why I was attracted to Grex in the first place.  Everyone is welcome. 
No one gets kicked out.  There are squabbles, of course, just like Grex,
but in general people join because they want to be part of an open
community. 

Furthermore, Unitarian communities are very strong communities.  By that I
mean that there are lots and lots of people who are deeply committed to
their Unitarian churches, and work hard and donate a lot of money to keep
them prosperous.  That's something that's hard to get across to people
when the first hear about UUism and how open it is - they assume it must
be a namby-pamby kind of thing which people drift in and out of.  But it's
a lot like Grex - some people come and go, of course, but a lot of people
stick around for their whole lives, and make it an extremely big part of
their existence.

the paga uu group is called
covenant of the unitarian universal pagans. something like that.
it is abbreviated CUUPS

s/paga uu/pagan UU/
s/of the uni/of uni/
www.cuups.org

I was a Unitarian minister for several years. Went to a Unitarian (now UU)
theological school out in Berkeley. The San Francisco church, and the
Arlington church are pretty much the middle of the road for Unitarians. A few,
like the Marin County church, north of San Francisco, are quite openly pagan.
A lot more are "humanist," giving them a kind of secular social-action
orientation. And, of course, a lot of them, particularly in New England, are
Christian -- in the sense that they look on Jesus as the Great Leader, not
as the "Son of God." They tend to be educated middle-class or upper-class to
some extent, which may be why minorities are not much present. Politically,
of course, they tend to be "libral," although they'd all deny that that's a
requirement for membrship. Feminist groups would be happy there. ... I got
out of the church after some painful fights and find myself much, much happier
in our Pagan groups, dancing naked in the moonlight. You won't find Unitarians
doing much of that.

        They're definitely missing something there, then ...

OK, this item stayed fairly well on topic, and was last opened in 2000. I
guess tht's not so bad.  Anyone have anything else to say about Unitarian
Universalism, or CUUPs, or comparative churches?

Response not possible - You must register and login before posting.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss