my church is going to have its first ordination ceremony soon. 
 during the planning and the meetings and the discussions i've been
 having with my fellow church members, i've been thinking about some
 things i've heard from other pagans in other discussions: namely, that
 pagans don't need clergy.
 
    the usual logic given for the idea that pagans don't need clergy
 is that since paganism is an inherently unstructured religion, or at
 least since it really doesn't have any central authority, establishing
 any sort of pagan clergy is tantamount to seizing the reins of power
 among pagans (yeah, right) and declaring *somebody* to be a pagan pope,
 who would become dictatorial and issue statements about what pagans
 must or must not believe.  (imho, that's what the gardnerians do among
 their own ranks already.  ;)
 
    otoh, it seems to me that having a more established, or perhaps i
 mean more networked, pagan clergy would be no bad thing.  pagans might
 not need clergy until they want to get married...or they're having some
 sort of dilemma that pondering the rede or some other pagan philosophy
 on their own won't solve...or they're down on their luck and accepting
 help from the salvation army or the free breakfast at st. andrew's
 makes them feel out of place...or they go looking for some sort of
 twelve-step meeting that *doesn't* include the lord's prayer...or
 their kids are being taken away by some social worker who never bothered
 to learn the difference between "pagan" and "child abuser," and it would
 be helpful to have a pagan minister step up in the parents' 
 defense...or...or...or...et cetera.
 
    and how many pagans out there are universal life ministers, because
 they can't get ordained any other way? if they want to be ordained, then
 doesn't it mean that there really is a need for a visible pagan clergy? 
 what do y'all think?

35 responses total.

Legal reasons for having clergy: Most governments recognize a clergy status
for signing marriage certificates and performing funerals... the so-called
"marry and bury rights." This makes a modicum of sense; since a legal document
is involved with a (legal) marriage, it makes sense to require that the person
signing it have a minimal of credentials. In Michigan, the "minimal"
credentials consist of having two other people vouch for you, in the form of
all three of youo getting \together and forming a legal church. Scant, but
important.

Ethical/philosophical reasons: As much as we like to think of ourselves as
completely unstructured, we still need a sense of elders and teachers. Having
a formal recognition of that encourages excellence... which is why, frankly,
I'm opposed to ULC ordinations, because they trivialize the concept of
ordination (Disclaimer: not all ULC ministers are in it for the kicks, or are
undeserving of the credentials, but many of them are, and it brings the whole
group of pagan clergy, ULC or not, down.)

I am ordained through a Michigan pagan church, not ULC; I don't think my
ordination was deserved, not because I don't have the background or
credentials for ordination, but because the process was far too simple.

I am ordained by the ULC.  Would I be interested in a more structured pagan
clergy program?  You bet!  

One of the reasons I wanted to be ordained was for the marry and bury rights.
 Another was so that I could be free to "minister" to my felloe pagans in
hospital or prison, should anyone want me to.

No, we don't need a pagan clergy for religious services -- but we do need a
pagan clergy when and wher we interface with the mainstream culture.  They
have no way of understanding which of us to take seriously when they hear of
us mainly in the "Features" section of the newspaper at Halloween and more
often than ot we're made to sound slightly bizarre.

I realize that there are ways to become ordained in specific pagan traditions
-- but none of those are *my* trad, which is pretty hearth-witchy and
eclectic.  At least with the ULC, I'm not "misrepresenting" myself.

Some of the things I would like to see emphasized in a pagan ordination
program?  State laws concerning marriages and funerals, counseling techniques
and concerns, and stuff like that.  The "non-religious" aspects of clerginess.

I sort of *am* in a pagan (Wiccan) clergy training program.  Had an
interesting discussion with a woman, on the train coming back from Toronto
once- she was on her way home from a Methodist (I think it was) seminary, as
a commuting student, and I was on my way back from 3 or 4 days of class time
with my teacher.  We had a very interesting discussion- more similarities than
differences in our experiences, and at a similar place regarding beginning
to see ourselves as clergy- as priesthood- not just muddling through.

Anyway, like Brighn, I think we desperately need elders!  Now, not everyone
who gets ordained is an instant elder, with years of wisdom and patience and
understanding.  But one can *hope* that a more regularized, specifically
pagan, clergy training program would have a strong component of self-discovery
and personal growth so that, by time you call yourself not just "priest or
priestess of the gods", but priest/ess and minister to folks seeking the
gods", you ought to be past- or at least aware of- some of your ego issues
and hangups, so you would be able to counsel and support effectively.  Ick!
What a messy sentence.  Sorry, hard to type with a sinus headache.

What else?
We don't need anyone to *dictate* how we interact with the gods.  But a
trained priest/ess might be open to a level of invocation- of
possession-trance, that the average person might not be able to engage in.
More, with years of dedicated focus on communion with the gods, they might
be able to guide folks into closer relationship themselves.  So between the
one and the other, while folks direct their own sense of connection, the
priesthood can help them to deepen it.

Misti- good point about not misrepresenting yourself!  

Void- on what basis do you say that the Gardnerians say what their initiates
must or must-not believe?

   kami, i was simply poking fun at them.  it may have been a misplaced
remark, but i didn't mean any serious harm by it.  i poke fun at
everybody, sooner or later.

   the church i'm involved with has been started by some local pagans
(moonowl and eartha, niether one of whom have been around here much
lately, are among them) and what we've envisioned is more like a pagan
ecumenical organization than a church, really.  our local membership
currently consists of a few followers of native american traditions,
a wiccan, a hindu (i think), and an eclectic solitary.  we have a web
site, which is still under construction and therefore a little
haphazard, at www.sacredpath.org.

        Kami, your response struck a chord of irony with me ... for have
you read Peter S. Beagle's _The Innkeeper's Song_?  There is a term, which
I hope I am not mangling, "Tiafat" (sp?) used to refer to someone who is a
respected elder.  In a community where many do not have my respect, and many
do not respect me for my irreverent and widdershins philosophies and habit
of debating what I respect, you've earned the respect that goes with that role
- not as a personal mentor, but as someone clearly worthy of being a mentor
to others herself.  Your students have a name they can be proud of.

        Dru, I smile to know that things have come so far and well with your
efforts here.  I've already responded to the item you've entered on M-Net,
but I think that it's better to respond here, as there's more likely to be
constructive comment.  

        In the traditional sense, many Pagan traditions do not need clergy in
the same sense that the Christian faith does.  It's not necessary to have
someone to interpret works for you or to intercede on your behalf with a diety
you're perfectly able and eminently qualified to pray to, and research,
yourself, for starters.  Certainly you should not go wearing your collar
backwards and preaching openly.

        But the lot of many called to the various Pagan traditions is a lonely
one.  I don't know a better word than "lonely", though it doesn't completely
fit.  There is not enough support for individual beliefs, and the camraderie
that exists seems to me tainted by too many political and sexual agendas. 
What I've known of you makes you well qualified to work to fill this lack in
the community.

        Or perhaps it's just me. :)

That whole concept is illegitimate, John, because you took it from a work of
fiction.

Brighn, do you happen to know whether Beagle created, borrowed or "co-opted"
that term/concept?
Jazz- now you've thoroughly embarassed me. <sigh>
Void- poking fun at everyone evenhandedly is not a bad thing, and in-group
(that is; we know it's funny because we're close enough to that community to
"get" it) humour builds solidarity.  My concern is that I hear folks spouting
unexamined cliches about parts of the community and then using them as excuses
for prejudice.  We get sufficient from outside... I kindof worry about someone
reading this item, later, and going "gee, so Gardnerians are Fascistic
fundamentalist pagans, I'd better avoid them", and not realizing you had your
tongue in your cheek at the time.
By the way, Void- whereya been?  You haven't been on line much, and whenever
I see a yellow cab I look for your smiling face.  What's up?

Kami> I have no idea. I was just teasing John (jovially, I'd intended, though
it may have been less overtly humorous than I'd intended).

        I got the joke. :)

        Kami - embarassed why? 

I know you were teasing, Brighn.  But I haven't read that book and I'd like
to.
Jazz- just 'cus.

   kami, i've been having some trouble getting to grex lately (nothing
but busy signals when i try to dial in, usually, and a friend of mine,
in a fit of helpfulness, managed to break my isp connection).  as far
as seeing me in a cab goes, i've been answering phones at yellow
full-time lately, although that may soon change due to some stress
symptoms i've been having.

   as i said, my remark about gardnerians may have been ill-placed,
but i really didn't mean any harm by it.

   the ordination ceremony went very well.  four of us chose to become
ordained, and now we're doing the legal stuff -- registering with the
county clerk, getting "reverend" added to our drivers' licenses, et
cetera.  

   not to sound like a broken record or anything, but i still see the
need for pagan clergy more as intermediaries between pagans and the
general public than as intermediaries between pagans and their deities.

Agree, in theory; we don't *need* anyone to tell us what the gods have to say,
or how to talk to them.  Except that most of us have been taught, for a
lifetime thus far, *not* to hear those messages or believe them.  Rolemodels
and folks to teach us to believe *ourselves* can therefore be really useful.
I'm saddened, actually, when I see how many paganfolk seem to want to be
"sheep", to be led and told what to believe and how to practice.  But that's
a stage they might have to go through, in learning to trust and how to "hear".
The trick is finding/creating leaders who will empower, not dominate those
proto-pagans.

Sorry to hear about your connection difficulties.  Let's schedule to get
together for tea in January?  Miss you.  Would like to hear more about your
"churchly" endeavours.  Etc.

I know you didn't mean any harm.  Sometimes I just get a bit stuffy I guess.

I'm trying to convince a friend of mine to move out this way.  His girlfriend
is currently driving for Pizza Hut out in Omaha.  I said I thought she might
enjoy driving cab around here.  He had concerns for her safety.  What do you
think?

        I can't advocate the need for working in groups - however it comes to
the practitioner - enough.  Be it discussing solitary work with a group of
understanding friends, confiding in one's mate, or working within a group of
likeminded fellows.  It is an important foil, a check and balance against
becoming too enwrapped in one's ideologies and models.

I was ordained in a conventional church, where PC was the religion. Later
ordained twice by groups in the Fellowship of Isis. Major advantages include
legal weddings -- I don't get money for this, but people sometimes give gifts,
so I tend to feel like a tribal shaman. You don't need ordination to do
funerals, which have no legal implications. I've been a member of the
Association of Religious Counselors at U-M for ten years, now a member of the
board, and of the Council for Religious Dialogue at U-M. Ordination makes me
a professional in their eyes, and I can better represent the Neo-Pagans around
here. I used to preach, when I was in the conventional church, but I haven't
preached since I became a Witch. The role of Priest or Priestess is totally
different from the clergy's role in a conventional church. We do our best to
help people find their own magick, to experience the Goddess (and God), to
learn something of our traditions, with the clear understanding that if that
which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.
In practical terms, I like it best when I can counsel people in trouble. A
high point came when Kami and I went to Howell to help a woman who dared to
fight back against a couple of scumbags there. People on a power trip don't
make good Pagan clergy.

Just remembered still another reason for ordination. When someone talks to
you about any private matter, you treat this as strictly private, and this
rule is one that any clergy, in any trad, MUST take seriously. You don't EVER
repeat private information, including the fact that a person is a Witch or
a Pagan -- they could lose their job, get thrown out of home, harrassed, or
whatever. If you're ordained, you SHOULD be protected by law. Your testimony
can't be subpoenaed in court -- just as private information you give to a
doctor or lawyer is regarded as privileged information. We haven't tested this
in trials, so the law may not offer you the same protecting it offers Catholic
priests, but it's something that we all have to observe in any case. 

   kami, i'll send you some e-mail.  my isp connection is working
again, sort of (my modem is having a v.90 issue), and grex seems to
be willing to let me dial in directly again.

Yea!  Will look forward to hearing from you, Void.  Or call.
Happy New Year.

According to my father, a United Methodist minister, client confidentiality
HAS been tested in the courts for Christian ministers and failed (that is,
Christian clergy are NOT given the same disclousre protections as lawyers).
I don't know the accuracy of his comments.

Just curious: do the Friends (Quakers) have ministers?  What is their role
in the church.  From the vague things I know about their worship services,
they may have a model of worship that is non-hierarchical enough to be worth
investigating.

My understanding is that they have no ordained clergy, at least in the
meetings like the one in Ann Arbor, members of the Friends General Conference.
There are also Friends Churches elsewhere that have a minister and operate
pretty much like other churches. At Friends Meetings, though, all are equal,
and they typically sit in silence, until someone is moved by the Holy Spirit
to speak, very much from the heart. Yes, they're non-hierarchical, although
the Elders in the meeting tend to dominate. They're strongly Christian in
orientation, which is the main reason I never seriously considered joining
them.

Some are strongly Christian.  They are quite tolerant of variation and
personal experiences of the divine.  Technically they are a Christian sect,
but I know a few "pagan quakers".

Somewhere back there, someone asked about training programs for Pagan clergy.
The best one I know, and it's very good, is offered by Diana's Grove, in
central Missouri. I got through a year of this, but commuting 700 miles was
more than I could handle, to say nothing of an allergy to dogs, which wiped
me out in local meetings. Cindy Jones is an old friend -- I knew her when she
was ten years old -- and is the best teacher I know. The full program takes
three years, and I suspect some of it can be done by correspondence. Cindy
has been hostess to Starhawk's Witch Camp for the past several years, and
would generally follow Star's modified Faerie tradition. Ask Diana's Grove,
dianagrove@aol.com  for more information. 

I know of people who are participating in "priestess training programs".  I
find I'm very distrustful of their efficacy in preparing folks who can
counsel, teach, hear the words of the gods and prepare others to hear the
words of the gods.  The old tradition has always been that an individual is
trained by an individual teacher.  That teacher ought to know their student
well enough to help them get beyond themselves, to refine any rough edges and
to see themselves clearly enough not to be caught in traps of their own
history when dealing with other folks.  Then too, knowing a person that well,
a teacher *might* in theory, refuse initiation- priesthood- to someone who
truly is not "a proper person, properly prepared".  Doesn't always work, but
then, folks get out of seminaries and occasionally end up molesting young
people in their charge, or other egregious misbehaviors.  So there's good and
bad to the apprenticeship system.  Not least, in this day and age, that you
don't get a piece of paper to hand on your wall or a way to make a living.
The paper doesn't make you competent, but it seems to offer some confidence...

All that said, I'm pretty fortunate to be part of a hybrid- working with a
private teacher, within a public structure; the Odyssean tradition forms the
core of the Wiccan Church of Canada.  Candidates for initiation have gone
through, also, about a 3 year process of study and personal work, and then
complete a written exam and face examination by the priesthood counsel, to
acertain their readiness and fitness at that time.  It's an exhaustive process
and very educational.  Wish there were more like it.

        I'm not familliar with the Odyssean tradition ... what beliefs does
it hold?

I'm as familiar with training programs as anyone. Spent three years with a
High Priestess in bi-weekly sessions, decided that it was definitely not for
me. Took part of a correspondence course, only to find that it folded half-way
through the second semester (of four). No refund of the $150 I'd paid for it.
Listened to pirated tapes from another well-known trad. They were going off
in a direction I didn't want. A friend took a correspondence course from
another very well-known school, discovered she couldn't be initiated unless
she did the Great Rite with the HP. Neither she nor her husband was
enthusiastic. No initiation. Trained for three levels of Reiki, with a very
well-defined course of study and effective methods, well-done. And, of course,
I spent three years in a theological school, which was very good, but no
better than the training I've had as HP with Starhawk and Diana's Grove.
Moral here is: Know what you're getting into, look at other people that have
been trained in the same program, know how to get out gracefully if it's not
working.

Jazz, I don't think any neo-pagan tradition can quote a "creed", as such, or
codify it's beliefs "while standing on one foot".  A friend of mine would say
that neopaganism- Wicca in particular- is based in orthopraxy, not othrodoxy;
it's what you do, not what you think...  That said, the origin of the name
Odyssean is in the journey of Odysseus, which is the journey of the spirit
spirit's journey back "home" and back to the gods, which each of us undergoes-
individually. In addition, the tradition was founded as a way to make worship
of the old gods available to folks who may not, themselves, desire to become
initiates and priesthood.  That is, Trad. Wicca has no "laity", everything
is oathbound.  In this one tradition, while there is oathbound material, 1st
degree initiation marks the 1st degree of *priesthood* and from that point
folks are expected to lead public ritual, teach, run a coven or student group,
etc.- under the oversight of their own teacher and elders.  What else?  A
strong convention of research, of honouring the gods of a given culture, as
much as possible, in the forms to which they were accustomed.  Now, mind you,
for a ritual of the death and rebirth of Dionysis, we did *not* kill an
actual goat, we used shortbread, burning the "heart" as a sacrifice.  Much
tastier! <g>  And it is definitely a polytheistic tradition- while almost all
the gods can be seen as having gender, they are respected as individual,
rather than within the assertion that "all gods are one god"; that may be true
at some cosmic level, but you don't treat Brighid or Frigga as Isis or
Aphrodite would want to be treated... That somewhat answer your question?
Oh- I see I wrote counsel instead of council above.  Oh well. Typo.

        You're right;  come to think of it, it'd be hard to ask of any faith
what it believes, out of the sheer diversity of answers, and moreso when it's
a tradition of faiths!

        Is the Odyssean tradition strictly a Greek or Greek/Roman tradition,
or does it encompass a wider variety of faiths?  Are there strong ties to
Gerald Gardner and his associations with the Old Codger Crowley?

I disagree. The Wiccan creed includes the Rede, the Charge of the Goddess,
a belief in the Lord and the Lady, and so on. Beyond that, the branches of
Wicca are differentiated by specific Deities, the degree to which the
masculine or the feminine is stressed, ethics, elements, etc.

Almost all spiritual paths have specific beliefs; otherwise, they wouldn't
be "paths," they'd be fields. Neo-paganism *as a label* is hard to define not
because individuals within it don't have specific beliefs, but because it *is*
a spiritual field, not a path.

Jazz- definitely not Greek/Greco-Roman specific, but each person is encouraged
to find the pantheon/s which call to him/her most strongly.  The folks who
started things tend toward Greek, and that's a strong contingent.  Then too,
there's a lot of historical material available to draw from.  But I know folks
who are into Egyptian, Celtic, Norse, Sumerian, etc.
Strong ties to Gardner?--well, as much as the Wiccan ritual structure and
symbology descends from his work, certainly.  In terms of attitude, approach,
language, etc.- definitely not Gardnerian.  Crowley?  Dunno, there are folks
who are more into or less into ceremonial magic, and some who may have a
background in Thelema, but I don't see much of his influence in the core
tradition.

Brighn- what you say is valid at a cursory level, but in practice, the
understanding of the Rede- whether you're working with the whole poem or just
the final couplet, how you interpret "harm none", how you undertand will or
Will, etc.- varies pretty widely.  Not everyone uses the Charge, as such, and
versions differ.  In our case, I seldom hear it recited, but in very many
rituals *a* charge is spoken- words inspired by/for the deity who is being
honoured in that ritual.  The forms may reflect the rhythm of that particular
piece, or peice of sacred poetry from the culture of the deity who is being
honoured.  Not all Wiccans believe in "THE Lord and THE Lady", but may follow
a particular, named pair, or see each deity as individual such that Isis and
Osiris is a whole lot different than Odin and Frigga or Zeus and Hera--or Enki
and Inanna; a father-daughter pairing rather than spouses.  In other groups,
They may work with goddess only at some times of year, god only at other
times, etc.  Not all traditions or covens are dedicated to a specific deity/s.
Many covens are, but that's not universal, either.
If you look for a creed statement, you'll find self-declared Wiccans who
disagree with just about any point in it.  While I might be more comfortable
with clearer delineations or boundaries, there aren't any which are
universally accepted.  Oh well...

You'll find Christians who disagree with just about any teaching of Jesus,
but that doesn't mean there aren't any creeds to Christianity.

I think neopagans, and particularly Wiccans, like to revel in an individualism
and non-conformist attitude that is more frequently illusion than fact.

        You've both valid points, and my question was amibiguous enough that
either answer would have been correct.  It's hard to ask what a set of people
believes in, when a label has been applied to that set of people, especially
when the set holds a series of different religions.  I believe I have a better
understanding of "Odyssean" now.

        Kami, I've noticed quite a bit of Crowley in Gardner;  strictly
speaking Gardner was only in the HOOGD (and never the Arcanum Arcanorum or
Ordo Templi Orientis) on paper, and the HOOGD itself frowned darkly on
Crowley's selling of membership and degree in it's ranks, but there are echoes
of distinctly Golden Dawn rituals in many of his works, and specifically of
things Crowley wrote (or Nuit, through him, should you choose, or Aiwazz, or
Choronzon), including echoes from the Book of the Law and the reworked
symbolism of the Beast and the Scarlet Woman.

Crowley was involved with  the Golden Dawn.  Gardner was involved with the
Golden Dawn.  Crowley did indeed have some significant influence on Gardner.
But that doesn't mean that *all* the ceremonial elements in Gardnerian Wicca
are attributable to Crowley.  More- if you look at each of their attitudes
toward the gods, ritual, women, etc., and then at the attitudes of
practitioners of various traditions, you see quite a range- I think Gardner
used a balance of authority something like "the priest leads- in the
priestess's name".  I may be wrong about that.  Most the Gardnerians and
Alexandrians I know have a balance more like "it's the priestess's
coven/ritual and the priest supports and enforces that".  I think Crowley's
image might have been closer to "the priest/magician does the work and owns
the space, and the priestess is the source upon which he draws".  Those
differences matter a lot.

        I've heard a number of stories about the relationship between Crowley
and Gardener;  since most of them have come from Thelamites or Dawnies, I'd
imagine that they're somewhat biased.  What's your understanding of their
relationship?

Pretty fuzzy.  I'll ask someone with more honest background.  Remind me.

       It's my understanding that Gardner revised his _Book of Shadows_ in
1954 to remove direct references to the Golden Dawn and Crowley - the OTO 
   
calls the process de-Thelemization - and that there does exist several copies
of the ms that are clearly even more strongly related to Crowley, the HOOGD,
the OTO, and the AA.

       One of the sources for that is Allen Greenfield's _A True History of
Witchcraft_, which covers his search for one of Gardner's original ms's.

       What does seem to be fairly well established is that Crowley sold  
   
Gardner his charter.

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