Michael Faye was convicted in Singapore of vandalising cars with
spray paint. His sentence is 6 lashes with a cane.

 Do you think that the sentence should be carried out? 

If not, why not?

47 responses total.

   I think the punishment should go on as scheduled. Being that I am not
sane on this subject, I don't think that I can be that objective.

   He did the crimes, & deserves the punishment which the idependent nation
of Singapore has determined to be appropriate.

   The U.S> media has had a field day focusing on the strict laws of 
Singapore, but they don't seem to put much effort into showing that 
Singapore is a relatively clean, law-abiding society.


        After this little miscreant gets his whupping, he'll just come back
to the U.S. & make a few hundred thousand (or million) dollars marketing his
story, ala Nancy Kerrigan.

  Unfortunatly, Tim, you are right. 

Singapore may be a law abiding society, but does that make it just?  Hitler
used a similar argument to erradicate the Jews.  He felt that Jews were
somehow responsible for most crime in Germany and Austria, and so genocide
was called for.  Not that this wass the only reason...But America does not
need such savage mentality!

Can we really compare caining and genocide?  I find it hard to do.

 If the Jews in Germany went around throwing eggs at cars, spraypainting
cars, & stealing street signs, ethy should have been whupped with a cane
too.   But they didn't.   There's plenty of "savage mentality" in America --
don't you read the newspapers?  

        I'd rather have the 'savage mentality' be responsible for REDUCING
the amount of crime (like Singapore) instead of 'savage mentality' causing
crime, like here in the U.S.A.

 Nightline did a piece on this and really didn't come to any conclusion 
of any worth. 
  My feelings have not changed. He did the crime, and he was willing to
recieve the street signs, and he confessed. I see no problem there.

 I do, however see a problem with this, because as Tim stated before
he will come home when he heals, and there will be movie offers and 
book deals and all sorts of offers and what not. He will be rich, and 
again prove that crime, no matter how trivial, or heinous does indeed pay.

  As I also stated above, I am not sane on crime. I believe that swift and
sure punishment should be meted out without regard to race, color or creed.
If I were the prosecutor in the Harding case, I would not have accepted her
plea bargain, or at least I would have required her to pay a 10 million
dollar fine, and spend 5 years of her life in jail, with noparole.
 Why 10 million? easy. because she profited from interviews and movie
deals, and she will come out ahead. The large fine takes care of the 
money and 5 yrs effectively removes her from ever skating competitive
again.
   This is what punishment is meant to do. Remove the incentives, the rewards
, the fame. Locking people away removes them from the memory of society
and when released, they again become just one of many who are ex-cons.

I have never heard of any one commiting a crime for profit.  The savage
mentality refered to should not be put to use anywhere, instead why not
eliminate it?  I am not saying Jews did any of those things, only that
it was part of Hitler's argument.

 I realize that. But we're talking about that Fay kid, who did do the 
crimes.

NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE COMMITTING CRIME FOR PROFIT?!?

..sure, right, uh-huh.

sorry carson, should have read never heard of anyone committing a crime
for the book and movie deal afterwords.  Guess # 8 sounds pretty dumb
as is.

 Thanks for the clarification -- it makes a lot more sense.   I don't think
anyone here has claimed to know of people who committed an incredible
crime, just to make a profit from any publicity resulting from being
caught.
 
   However, there are clearly MANY cases where --in my opinion-- the resulting
media frenzy to get exclusive interviews with the 'suspect' have resulted
in large payments being made, the suspect getting an agent to handle book
& movie offers, etc.

Your welcome!  re your second point- that being a societal problem,
                                     we (GREX) being a society....

I am opposed to official torture.  Caning in Singapore is clearly torture.

It is also incorrect to assume that harsh punishments there are the reason
for their law-abiding society.  Many countries have brutal punishments yet
crime problems out of control (e.g., Brazil); many other countries treat
offenders without torture yet manage to be clean and safe (e.g., almost
every country in western Europe).

 Why is Singapore basically a clean, peaceful country?

An article in the AA News a few days ago discounts many of the "myths"
about caning.  While it may have been spin control by the Singapor govt.,
they said that the cane is *note* dipped in salt water and that there
are no bits of skin flying around.

It is still a rediculous punishment.  re#15  I dunno, but I bet its not due
to harsh punishments.

re #15: probably due to the casting out of criminals by their society. Am I
        correct in saying that in Singapore, crimes are an embarrassment
        not only to the perpetrator, but to the family as well, and that the
        consequences are farther reaching than the sentence for the crime?

 Public humiliation is certainly one of the most severe punishments in
existence.  I don't think that little Fay punk & his family are members
of Singaporean society, so even IF what you say is correct, it doesn't
really effect them.
 
  However, whupping him with the cane WILL be a nice embarrassment to
him (& his family).

        For what it is worth, I'm going to send a letter to Singapore's 
consulate, protesting the reduction in Fay's sentence (down to 4 lashes from
6).

This is rediculous.  Most of you people seem to be good honest and caring
people.  But on this issue you are relentless.  The punk screwed up.  Big
Deal.  So they're gonna whip him publicly.  Big deal.  It IS.  It aint
gonna help the kid out.  It aint gonna help Singapore out.  Where is hte
rehibilitation in this sentence?  Children we whip, and then only occasionally
and with proper explanation.  even then we don't whip kids publically!  This
is nothing more than a fear tactic used by the Singapore government, and I
am appalled that many of you support it.

Rehabilitation?

REHABILITATION?!?

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!!

 For those who still believe in the Bible: "Spare the rod and spoil the child"

 Oh, and according to the news, he got his "whupping" this morning.

I don't, for a minute believe that this is a fear tactic. It is a punishment
nothing more than lopping off a thief's hand in Saudi Arabia is. Mr. Fay is
not above the law, and for that matter none of us are. When we travel to
other places it is expected that we, as decent people follow the law of the
land, no matter how silly it might seem to us. In Saudi Arabia, it is a
(an) insult to drink beer, hence it is banned. As Americans, who as a rule
are big beer swillers, we find that this is silly, but we at least should
honor the laws in a foreign land.

  Michael Fay had no respect for the laws of Singapore, for he was an 
American, and thought that he could pull off American style pranks and
thought that if he got caught, he could expect American style justice.
I don't have one bit of sympathy for this kid, and anyone who does, in 
my opinion is barking up the wrong tree.

I agree with everything you say except the first sentece of the second
paragraph

 Yes, the whipping is a fear-tactic used by Singapore in an effort to reduce
criminal behavior committed  in Singapore.
 
   I fear getting my butt whipped.  I hope to visit Singapore sometime, and
will do my best to abide by their laws.
 

  Prison sentences is a fear-tactic used by U.S. in an effort to reduce
criminal behavior committed in U.S.

  I fear getting my butt violated. I hope to continue to live in U.S. and
will do my best to abide by our laws.

        Any questions, author of #20?

Yah, just one question.  Is this the kind of country you want to live in?
One that uses fear to control behavior?  That is all

by the author of #20

If you don't want to live here, you can leave...

And go where?  This is my home.  I believe America is the most open place in
the world, and I would like it to remain so.  I will fight to my death any-
thing that tries to significantly alter it.  But hey, if you wanna live in this
fear be my guest, just find a country where they know how to do it right, like
Singapore.

Do you have an alternative for controlling behavior? Fear works wonders,
and those who abide by the laws of society have little to fear from them.

Yes I do have an alternative method, IF you have to control behavior.  It is
called education.  It too, works wonders.  If you think you have nothing to
fear from societies laws then you are gravely mistaken.  Perhaps your ideas
clash with the laws of society, then you have much to fear.  Take for example
a MI local, Dr. Kavorkian (sp?).  Or maybe pro-choice folks before Roe v Wade.
Society has many laws that oppress and restrict, and the laws society makes
may eventually turn against you, carson.  BEWARE.

"I fear education. It usually consists of someone trying to convince me
that what they think is right IS right, no questions asked. If I were to
allow myself to be educated, it would simply be a brainwash, and I would
have no free will of my own. That scares me."

Thank ya fer playin devils advocate, carson!  What you describe is not 
education, it is brainwashing!  

 
  It isn't fear of going to prison that stops me from robbing banks, 
burglarizing homes, etc. It is basic decency that does.
 
  A perhaps small, but very visable & destructive segment of people in 
America (I don't just say 'our society," because these people aren't a 
part of it) are willing to violate laws in an attempt to harm others & 
benefit themselves because they don't have the same sense of morals as do
I & most Americans, and they are not concerned about the 'fear-tactics'
prison.
 
   So until you can change their sense of morals, I would strongly
suggest that we dramatically revise the 'fear-tactics.'
 

  It is like the science of pesticides.  Something at a certain strength
works well for a certain amount of time, but then the 'pests' build up a
tolerance or immunity to it, so the boys & girls back at the testing lab
revise the strength of the formula every few years...

...to the possible greater detriment of the environment as a whole.

 How is that analagous to the punishment of criminals?

The application of more stringent punishments may be detrimental to society.
Some theorize that criminals will go out of their way to be anti-social if
they feel the punishments they have received in the past were too great.
Frankly, I don't see much logic to that argument.  However, it cannot be
disputed that the methods of punishment employed in *this* nation are
extraordinarily expensive, that longer prison terms have little (if any)
effect on the crime rate, and that "getting tough" roughly translates into
throwing away millions of dollars.

Should we decide to switch to a system of corporal punishment, or corporal
punishment with shorter jail terms, we would save money.  But there are
externalities to having a system of punishment that can be perceived as
brutal.  The messages sent by such a system, while possibly having a
deterrent effect on crime, are not very positive.

IMHO, criminals don't expect to be caught, and certainly don't expect to
be punished.  Thus, the form or extent of punishment is of little deterrent
value.  If you want to reduce crime via punishment, you have to increase the
speed and certainty of its application.  But the money is probably best
spent on prevention.

re #31: not to drift or anything, but what is the difference between
        education and brainwashing? 

Education is allowing someone to reach their own conclusions, in light of
facts.  Brainwashing is forcing a conclusion irreguardless of facts.

 Education = evolution. Brainwashing = creationism.

Latest word from Fay:  "It wasn't that bad"

Question is, did it work?

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