Because I can, this is the fall football item.  College and Professional
football has returned to the field this week following recent tragedy, with
moving ceremonies in every stadium this weekend.  

199 responses total.

Metro Detroit people who don't care about football:  Participating in
discussions about the Lions will not be difficult this year.  Just stare at
the ground, shake your head, and mutter something negative like "too bad" or
"it's a bad season" or "Nobody has sucked this obviously since Monica
Lewinsky" and you'll be fine.  Seven interceptions, and 8 big plays of 15
yards or more given up to the big play Cleveland Browns offense (ha, ha),
and... you get the idea.  To make it worse, the only team seriously contending
with us for the title of "worst team in the NFL," the Bears, shocked the
Vikings today.

The Bengals certainly aren't contenders for that title--they already have two
wins, one of them over the defending champions.  Inexplicable.

Most notable to me were the anonymous commercials praising rescue workers and
declaring unity, amongst other things.  Does anybody know who's putting the
money up for them?

SEVEN INTERCEPTIONS?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

Awww, Detmer should have gone for the record, 8.
Maybe Charlie Batch wasn't so bad after all.

Yeah, bring back Charlie.

Can't bring Batch back until Detmar starts blaming his teammates for his
poor performance.

They compared their stats from the first two weeks, and Charlie's suddenly
looked pretty good.  And then they started talkinga bout the third-stringer...

Batch has had a good attitude about this, but how can they move him back up?
I don't see what good writing off the season does at this stage, because
there's nothing to be gained.  It's not like we have a Michael Vick of the
future waiting to be developed.  The fans would only be angered by an
admission of irrelevance this early, and we haven't even seen what this team
can do at home yet.  Remember, the Lions are a different team (when they're
not being booed) at home.  They won't necessarily be a good team, but they
always surprise me.  Course, the first game is against Saint Louis.  Forget
it, we'll be lucky to see a single victory.

Huge matchups next weekend between the states of Michigan and Illinois.  U
of M hosts Illinois, at Michigan Stadium, where Illinois has had tremendous
success over the last ten years.  MSU visits Northwestern, who has several
good victories in recent seasons.  The winners (only Michigan in this group
has a non-conference loss, and that was a tight one in Washington) will wind
up being the Big Ten's best hopes.

I didn't watch the Lions game (real football is played on Saturday, the
holy day of obligation), but did see an almost anonymous tribute during
some of the Sunday morning news shows.  In the last frame, in the lower
right quadrant, I think I saw "GE".

Maybe they shouldn't have cut Harbaugh?

Right; they can't go back to Batch until he practices better than the others
for a couple of weeks running.  And even then, he'll have to perform well
as a reliever.  _Maybe_ then he can win back the starting job.

I was surprised they didn't put Batch back in for the 2nd half of
yesterday's game.  Detmer was terrible -- 7 interceptions!  The Lions 
were bad even aside from his performance, with 10 or 12 penalties in 
the 1st half.

I stopped watching after the 3rd quarter.  I logged on later to make sure
they actually lost.  I would have had to stop watching pro football if
they'd won.  It wouldn't be right for a team playing that badly to beat
someone.

I say bring back Scott Mitchell.

        What turns a respectable, good college football quarterback
into something that is a shame for an NFL team to put on the feild?
Is the talent gulf that big?  Is it a matter of teammates and coaches?

A college quarterback can be good (even excellent) without possessing the
tools to succeed in the pros.  Physically, you're required to make smart reads
and tight throws on every down in the NFL.  You can get away with an awful
lot against slow, inferior defensive backs in college.  Danny Wuerful, for
instance, just didn't have the ability to make it in the NFL, but he was smart
and accurate and tore up the SEC for years in Florida's offense.  Throws that
produced long gains and touchdowns in college were suddenly batted away and
intercepted by faster, bigger cornerbacks in the NFL.  

It's not just the tools that make the player, obviously.  Brian Griese was
considered too slow with too weak of an arm to be a quality QB (granted, there
was a solid group of wise men backing him, but that was only after the
championship season--he had absolutely no future in football following 1996).
Ryan Leaf was highly desirable, wearing a gun mounted on his shoulder.  Look
where they are.  The keys to succeeding in the NFL mostly boil down to
intelligence and accuracy.  If you can make good decisions and put the ball
where you want it, you can succeed.  Miss either of those two characteristics,
and you throw interceptions.  Detmer is smart, but he wasn't accurate
yesterday.  

I'm not really doing the question justice.  You can write books on what makes
a great quarterback and not get all of it.  John Elway was a classic, athlete
quarterback who could make all the throws and make the plays with his body,
and he's a hall of famer.  Joe Montana is nobody's idea of a physical
specimin, and he's a hall of famer too.  Go figure.

Scott Mitchell is warming the bench in Cincinnatti.  That would be laughable
if they weren't 2-0.  Still, he's done in the league.  

This item is linked as #13 in the Autumn 2001 Agora and #112 in the 
sports conference.

You can look awfully good in college if you're on a good team, with lots 
of other good players, which plays against inferior defenses.  Brigham 
Young University produced several outstanding college quarterbacks this 
way; they could throw 4000 yards in a season, something no QB in a 
conference with several good teams could do.  Some of these QBs were 
truly good QBs; Steve Young (Joe Montana's successor, and allegedly a 
descendant of Brigham Young) and Jim McMahon (the QB who led the Chicago 
Bears to a spectacular Super Bowl win) were two of them.

Michigan has 4 recent QBs who are either NFL starters or solid backups; 
Jim Harbaugh, Brian Griese, Elvis Grbac and Tom Brady.  (I'm not missing 
anyone, am I, Leeron?)  None of these guys was a highly regarded QB on 
the national level when in college, but they're very capable NFL QBs.  
The two who were real superstars; Rick Leach and Drew Henson; chose to 
play baseball instead of NFL football.  Leach didn't think a Michigan QB 
had a chance in the pros because no one had ever gone from Michigan to 
play a single down as an NFL QB.

A lot of great NFL QBs did go to schools which played strong 
competition.  Joe Montana went to Notre Dame, Bob Griese was a Purdue 
grad, Bart Starr and Joe Namath went to Alabama, John Elway came from 
Stanford.

A lot of great college QBs never made it in the pros.  Heisman winners 
Chuck Long (Iowa) and Andre Ware (Houston) were failures in the pros 
while with the Lions.  Charlie Ward (Florida State) never had a chance 
in the NFL, but was a talented basketball player and still plays for(I 
believe) the New York Knicks.

Darned if I know how anyone can have any idea if anyone can ever play 
QB.  (-:

You missed Todd Collins.

And there were M QBs in the pros, but that was B.B.  (Before Bo.)
[I think Bob Timberlake is an example, but don't know much about pros.]

An interesting story about Rich Mirer, the ND QB who was a great M
football fan in his youth.  When he played M, he actually wore a UM
shirt underneath his ND Jersey.  Why did he choose ND over UM? Because
while watching Monday Night Football, Dan Dierdorf (another M Man)
mentioned that no UM QB had thrown an NFL TD in decades. (Either Harbaugh
was an exception or he was still a bench warmer at the time.)

As far as I'm concerned, Dierdorf put a jynx on UM QBs, reversing the
previous situation.  Every UM QB since has done better than Mirer.... (:

Leeron, I understand that no U-M quarterback had ever played a down as an
NFL player before Harbaugh.  I'll believe you if you say that's not true,
but can you provide some more information about it?  Who, when, what team
did he play for?

I've been listening to WTKA-1050 AM a lot in the last couple of years, and
they've discussed this.  I believe they've stated there weren't any, ever.

Thanks!

There are a couple of quarterbacks who've played in the pros, some from the
early half of the century.  I don't have the resources available at work
(where I am) to verify this, but I can assure you it's true.  

Grbac and Harbaugh held decent national regard, nothing spectacular.  One of
the reasons Leach didn't go into professional football is that he wasn't (and
really still wouldn't be) a legitimate pro quarterback.  He was an option man
first, second, and third.  Ward had pro potential coming out of college, but
opted for Basketball as the better career.  Money and physical well-being talk
loudly in such cases. 

Talent development in sports is one of the great mysteries that make them so
much fun--there's no sure way to tell which prospects will grow into starters,
all-stars, and hall of famers, and which will play in a few games and never
be heard from again.  Luck is certain a large part--The Denver Broncos mine
the lower rounds of the draft for players nobody remembers from college such
as Olandis Gary, Terrell Davis, and Mike Anderson, puts them behind a great
quarterback and the league's best offensive line, and turns them loose.  All
three, when healthy, are now solid runners with confidence and skill.  If they
had started elsewhere, though, I doubt they'd have accomplished much of
anything.  

Lions fans have spent a lot of time wishing that the Lions had drafted Brian
Griese instead of Charlie Batch, but they're not thinking too hard about it.
Brian Griese was drafted by one of the best coaches in the league and spent
his first year learning from John Elway.  He learned the ropes throwing to
two all-star receivers and handing off to three thousand yard runners (one
of them ran for 2,000, too) and parking himself behind the aformentioned
offensive line.  Batch was drafted by the power-football coach Bobby Ross,
played behind a line of scrubs, and except for his first year has had
journeymen next to him in the backfield.  I'd bet that if the situations were
reversed, Batch would be the one succeeding in Denver, with Griese struggling
to hang on.

Look at Kurt Warner.  He didn't make his NFL debut for an awful team relying
on him to carry them (though we might have thought so at first).  He has so
many weapons available to him--it's a setup for success.  This doesn't say
that he hasn't become a great quarterback--he has composure, intelligence,
and accuracy that prove otherwise--but he was given a chance to succeed to
the fullest of his ability.  

I still say that the last good Lions team was the wild-card entrant at 10-4
in 1970 (?) that lost 5-0 at Dallas.  Bill Munson was the old veteran, and
Greg Landry was the up-and-comer who took his job.  Until/unless the Lions
do what the Wings did, they're still gonna be the "same old Lions".

How do you define good?  The Lions actually went 12-4 and won a playoff game
in '91.  

I'm going to string along with the radio guys, that no U-M grad ever
played at QB in the NFL until Jim Harbaugh, until someone can cite a name,
year and team.

Suit yourself.  I don't remember a Spartan QB playing in the NFL before Tony
Banks. :)  

This guy didnt' play for Michigan State.  Benny Friedman, QB, New York Giants,
1929-1931.  You guessed it, he played for...

Jeff George is currenlty *not* playing for the Washington Redskins.  He was
cut today, ending yet another promising sojourn with a team that was supposed
to win with him.  Dan Snyder is the one guilty of presuming success this time.
The Redskins have scored three points in two dismal losses to San Diego and
Green Bay, and he is a large (but not the only) reason.  They are now left
with... Tony Banks, who was cut by the Dallas Cowboys before the season in
favor of rookie Quincy Carter.  I hope that George does not come here.  We
do not need him screwing the Lions up, too.  

The answer is Michigan, if you missed it.  

I was going to mention Friedman (teamed up with Oosterban at UM), but I
also thought that Timberlake (who I mentioned earlier) played in the pros
in the 1960s.

He might have.  Do you know who for?  

What were the career stats for either of those guys?  I'd look them up for
myself, but our WWW access at work has been temporarily suspended because
of the virus last week.

I'm not sure that Friedman's stats would be relevant in today's world.
Most of the QBs in his era threw the ball *backwards*....

Just found a list of Michigan players drafted by the NFL (which doesn't
mean they ever played, let alone threw a TD Pass -- which I believe was
Dierdorf's comment).

Jim Van Pelt, 1958, 5th Round, Washington Redskins
Bob Ptacek, 1959, 8th Round, Cleveland Browns
Bob Timberlake, 1965, 3rd Round, NY Giants
Bob Timberlake, 1965, 13th Round, Buffalo Bills (AFL Draft)
Larry Cipa, 1974, 15th Round, New Orleans Saints
Dennis Franklin, 1975, 6th Round, Detroit Lions
Rick Leach, 1979, 5th Round, Denver Broncos
Steve Smith, 1984 Supplemental, 2nd Round, Sand DIego Chargers
Jim Harbaugh, 1987, 1st Round, Chicago Bears
Elvis Grback, 1993, 8th Round, San Fran 49ers
Todd Collins, 1995, 2nd Round, Buffalo Bills

Friedman doesn't appear on this list because he predates the NFL draft.
Brady and Griese post-date the list, but another Michigan QB was drafted
in 1996. Name him and receive my eternal admiration...

Friedman's played with the Cleveland Bulldogs (1927), the Detroit
Wolverines (1928-29), the NY Giants (1929-31) and the Brooklyn Dodgers
(1932-34).

re #26: Who was Scott Dreisbach, Alex?

re #22:
About Benny Friedman:
According to this WWW site:
www.umich.edu/~bhl/athdept/football/fballam/aafriedm.htm
he "starred for such pro teams as Cleveland, Detroit, New York and
Brooklyn".

This page:
www.hickoksports.com/biograph/friedmanben.shtml
is much more specific, it says he never made the Hall of Fame, but:
"In 1928, Friedman led the NFL in both rushing touchdowns and touchdown 
passes; no other player has ever accomplished that.  In 1929, he threw 
20 touchdown passes, including 4 in one game, both NFL records for 
years."

All right, I'm convinced.  Thanks for clearing up that knowledge void!

Sorry, but Dreisback was (not drafted) in 1999, not 1996.
A good guess and you win a consolation prize....

Dreisbach was a freshman in '95, and played briefly as a backup to Tom Brady
in '98.  Of course, he played many other games, too.

See, I was thinking Driesbach, but thought 1996 was too early... it's 
good to be right. <grins>

Re: Lions' 12-4 season:  Yes, that was an accomplishment, and beating Dallas
at home in the playoffs was great fun.  But the blowout loss at Washington 
left a bad taste in the mouth.  Beside Barry Sanders, can you name any other 
Lions "stars" on that team?

Heh.  Herman Moore, Scott Mitchell (he threw for a lotta yards that year;
wasn't it something like 4700?), Jason Hansen was on the team by then I
think; I think it was his first year and he put a kickoff through the
uprights.  But it was a team with Barry Sanders and Some Other Guys for
sure.

Maybe Detroit will lose every game and draft a good quarterback... any good
QB's coming out in the draft next year?

Sure; Joey Harrington and Kurt Kittner are both top-ranked prospects.  
Henson would have been, of course.  Whoever wound up starting for Texas 
-- Applewhite and the other one; I don't remember his name but he either 
did or almost did beat out Applewhite.

Caught the end of the MSU-Northwestern game.  Wonderful seesaw finish. :)

Michigan seems to be doing well against Michigan.  Even if they didn't score
first.  (I missed the first score because ABC didn't cut away from the game
mentioned above.)

YEah, a games worth of playing in the last 30 seconds.....I missed the last
18, what was the final outcome?

The final score was Michigan 45, Illinois 20.

It's interesting to read this story at this moment. On C-SPAN2 they're 
showing an interview with Murray Sperber, Bobby Knight's biggest critic 
and author of the book, _Beer and Circus_: How College Sports are 
Ruining Undergraduate Education_.

I think #36 was asking about the MSU-NU game:  26-27, NU.  I forgot the score
almost as soon as they cut over to the UM game; 'twas fun to watch, but I
didn't have an investment in the outcome.

#36 was in reference to the NU-MSU game, I believe.  NU threw a 54-yard Hail
Mary, had time for one rushing play, and kicked the game-winning field goal
with 5 seconds left.  Final score 27-26 Northwestern.  :)
The Michigan dfense looked fantastic against Illinois.  The announcers spent
a bit of tim at the beginning of the game bragging about how IL had such a
great turnover margin/sack protection.  They looked pretty silly by the end.

Michigan had some beautiful offensive flourishes:  the initial touchdown
was a Navarre lateral pass to Walker, who promptly threw another lateral
pass to Gonzales running up the other side of the field and all the way to
the end zone.  There was also a very pretty reverse by Bell (28 yd TD run).
Mostly I was impressed by the way that, whenever the IL running back started
to break through, there was always someone in maize and blue to slam him
down and say "no you don't!"

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss