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This may be more of a Miss Manner question than a Scrupples question: You're attending a friend's wedding, and it's a full-blown Catholic Mass with lots of Latin and chanting and getting up and sitting down and kneeling. If you are an atheist or agnostic or even just a simple Lutheran wouldn't it be appropriate to just sit quietly through all of the up, downs, and kneels (especially the kneels)?
25 responses total.
That's what I did. But in retrospect, I don't know; when I was in a Buddhist wedding, I participated more fully.
I'd try to keep up.
When I'm participating in a religious ceremony I generally try to do what is expected in teh cerimony. There are exceptions, like not doing Communion, but I usually try to do what the others are doing. I may not really believe in it, but I can consider it to be a cultrual experience.
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You're at the wedding to show your support for the couple, or for the individuals therein. I'd participate fully, including communion, but I would not say any words of dedication asked of me (in a wedding? -- even communion at a wedding seems odd to me, but I haven't been to many weddings). The God or Gods involved in the religious ceremony now that you're not there as a follower, but as a friend, and your own God(s) should know as much as well.
Whenever in this situation I tend to just sit quietly figuring I'm there to observe. I wouldn't participate in such rituals without first understanding what they meant and holding some belief in what was behind them. And if this end up concerning a true believer sitting nearby then that is his or her problem, no mine. I'd consider the same to be true if I was visiting another country where the custom was to stand and hold some pose while the National Anthem was played. I would remain quiet and seated while respecting their traditions, but I wouldn't feel right joining in so as not to offend or be conspicuous.
(Editor problems. Sorry.)
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The best thing to do, of course, is to make your own comfort level clear *before* the event. If you don't want to participate in a foreign religious activity, and the participants expect you to, then the best thing to do is to not go. Sitting still and not doing anything can be more offensive to believers than falsely participating. True, that is your neighbors problem, not yours, if they're offended by your behavior, but religion (and nationality) are important things not to offend people on. Specific example: We invited a Christian to our own (Pagan) wedding. She made sure to ask what, specifically, she would be asked to do, so that she w could decide for herself wht ether to come or not. Because she was comfortable going in, she was a positive addition to the ceremony. OTOH, a friend of ours didn't even bother to tell the people invited to her Pagan wedding what her religion was, and when they showed up to a handfasting, with no idea what was going on, they freaked (quite naturally) and destroyed the energy. The example in #0, of course, is about a difference in sects (assuming the person is "just a simple Lutheran"), not whole religions, and presumably you'd know what sort of worshipping there might be (not details, necessarily, but certainly a vague idea). But, in my view, the same should apply: if you're uncomfortable participating in earnest and in full, you should explain that when invited, and discuss possible alternatives. Depending on circumstances, I don't think the nationality issue is the same. Most likely, the people around you when the anthem is playing will know you're not one of them, and won't (necessarily) expect you to respond. The same probably isn't true in a religious setting. No, you're not supposed to take communion if you haven't been baptized. There is also no membership card that you have to show to prove that you've been baptized, and there's no communion bouncer who throws people who take communion out if they haven't been baptized. :-)
Why would my not kneeling be a bother to anyone else?
I'd respectfully and quietly sit or stand. I would not kneel.
Remember when the Bushes were in England and what a stir they caused by not being appropriately polite to the royalty? Remember, Mary, that the kneeling is an act of deference to the diety being worshipped. Not kneeling says on of three things: (1) You don't believe in the deity, and feel it would be rude to worship a diety you don't believe in (2) You don't believe in the deity, and feel it would be silly to worship a deity you don't believe in (3) You believe in the deity, and don't feel like being reverent. The difference between(1) and (2) is a subtle one. In the first one, though, you are being respectful of the faithful by *not* falsely worshipping. In the second, you are being rude by implying that the deity is not real. The third is downright blasphemous. You are assuming that people would assume that you aren't kneeling because of (1). Most (or many) staunchly religious types might actually assume (2), though.
I think I would quietly (and respectfully) sit. Standing is appropriate as a sign of respect. For me, kneeling in a Catholic church implies active worship of the Catholic God. I would not do it for that reason. It might be easier to include the kneeling if one were a type (sect??) of Christian other than Catholic. Putting it on the other foot, I'm not certain if I would expect my Christian friends to stand when the Torah is brought forth. Well, I guess I would, because (perhaps ethnocentrically) I feel standing is a more generic form of showing respect for someone (even if you don't believe in it) than kneeling would be. That is, standing doesn't imply worship, just a general sort of support.
I don't stand or kneel during a religious ceremony because I don't believe in a god and it would be inappropriate for me to participate in such rituals. Instead, I sit in the back and off to the side, quietly observing. I feel this is the most respectful action I can take. But lets take a look at it from the worshiper's point of view. If someone noted I was not kneeling and then started to fret about this, wondering why I was not willing to participate and feeling somehow offended and distracted that a non-believer would dare to behave in such a manner in his church... Well, I'm not sure such a person is getting his money's worth out of being a Christian. From what I remember from my religious training the Christian attitude would be to welcome non-believers into the church where they could see, by example, word and *deeds*, what it means to be a Christian (or a Jew, Hindu, etc.) For someone to go to Sunday service to then get angry because someone else isn't kneeling, or wearing better clothes, or attending more often, or whatever, is pretty hypocritical behavior. Jesus would not be a happy camper to see his followers behave in such a manner.
re #12 -- you left out an alternative, mine:
4) You believe in the deity, but you do not normally show
reverence by kneeling.
I have been Methodist, Reformed, and Free Methodist, but
never part of a church that knelt liturgically except at the
communion rail. I have attended weddings & other services in
churches with kneelers (I found this piece of furniture puzzling,
until I saw it demonstrated!) and sometimes used them. The natives
don't seem to mind, one way or the other -- and let me tell you,
those things are not particularly comfortable, so if you happen to
see someone scowling it's probably not because *you* aren't
kneeling but because his/her own knees are in pain. Aim for an
attitude of respect and non-disruption.
I've used kneelers, and not found them terribly uncomfortable. I am personally uncomfortable *not* participating, but certainly can see how participating can make some people uncomfortable. Since Chelsea has not wavered the slightest in her original stance, I can only assume that this item was intended as "here's my position -- tell me I'm right" rather than a sincere request for advice (a request for opinions, maybe, but not advice). Personal attack/growling aside, I'm not sure that I feel that a Lutheran, a Catholic, and a Methodist (to give three examples) are worshipping the same god, but that's a subtle theological point that would be better argued in other confs. Also, quite right that most religions (Christianity included) have an open door policy on interested or open-minded folks. My feeling, to reiterate, is that to experience what it's like to be a Christian, one should really go through all the motions. But I can hardly talk for Christians, no longer being one.
More like, "Here's my position, what's yours?". Kinda what we do throughout the conferences. I enjoy hearing the opinion of others even if I don't agree. Even more so if I don't agree, actually.
O.k., Mary, sorry for the grumping. I originally misread your intention in #0.
You're not grumping, you're disagreeing. Thanks for sharing your opinion. Really.
I think this is a tough one. For some reason, if I remain seated when everyone else stands up it makes me extremely uncomfortable. It probably harks back to that claustrophobic feeling when you were a little kid in a crowd of standing adults, wishing one of them would lift you up onto his shoulders. Also, it has to do with not being able to see anything, which is especially irksome at a wedding. So, I am likely to stand up with the crowd, if only to maintain my line of sight. If others think it's because I don't have the courage of my Protestant convictions, let them. (Actually, I can't imagine anyone giving a rat's ass whether I sit or stand.) But kneeling is another matter. I've known *Catholics* who don't kneel, or who at most do what a "high" Anglican friend of mine calls "the low-church squat," if you know what that means. I suppose I'd make an exception, though, if I felt I was really making someone uncomfortable by not kneeling. It hasn't happened since my parents were alive, but hey, you never know. I agree with chelsea that a true Christian ought to understand and forgive, but I also think everyone is there so the bride and groom can get married, not so I can test someone's faith.
I'll agree it depends on why you're there. If you're there for a wedding, then I doubt that anyone really will notice whether you participate or not, but I doubt that it will be all that important to not participate. You're there for the couple, not for the Dieties; the Dieties are overseeing the couple, but the congregation is there pramarily for show.
To digress, all this shows how helpful it can be to give thorough explanations beforehand if it's an occasion likely to bring a lot of visitors. I've been to funerals where the mourning customs and the meanings of some of the symbolism were explained in a litle introduction ahead of time which I'd bet made visitors much more comfortable about participating to the level they felt they could. For me, I agree with what I think Valerie said: I go along with the ritual aspects of what's going on, like standing, sitting, processing, etc., but stop short of saying things or taking individually meaningful action if I'm not a believer in what's going on.
When in Rome do as the Romans do....... Kneeling before the Lord is a sign of reverence, piety, humility and love as of obedience. The only forbidden activity is probably communion depending on your particular faith or baptismal state. Kneeling and rising is also great cardio-vascular endurance exercise.
I went to Christmas mass a couple of weeks back. I stood up and sat down with the others and sang with them too, but I didn't kneel. It just seemed awkward for me. But when everyone stood up and joined hands and then later shook everyone's hands and stuff, I went along with it. I guess it's just do what you feel comfortable doing. I didn't really think anything else of it.
It's seldom the atheist who gets bent out of shape over those following the rituals. Those who tend to get angry and glare are the "Christians".
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