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Grex Scruples Item 84: An Athiest At A Wedding
Entered by chelsea on Wed Oct 19 13:27:09 UTC 1994:

This may be more of a Miss Manner question than a Scrupples question:

You're attending a friend's wedding, and it's a full-blown Catholic
Mass with lots of Latin and chanting and getting up and sitting down
and kneeling.  If you are an atheist or agnostic or even just a simple
Lutheran wouldn't it be appropriate to just sit quietly through all of
the up, downs, and kneels (especially the kneels)?

25 responses total.



#1 of 25 by aruba on Thu Oct 20 00:10:30 1994:

That's what I did.  But in retrospect, I don't know; when I was in a Buddhist
wedding, I participated more fully.


#2 of 25 by carson on Thu Oct 20 01:32:43 1994:

I'd try to keep up.


#3 of 25 by scg on Thu Oct 20 03:00:14 1994:

When I'm participating in a religious ceremony I generally try to do what
is expected in teh cerimony.  There are exceptions, like not doing
Communion, but I usually try to do what the others are doing.  I may not
really believe in it, but I can consider it to be a cultrual experience.


#4 of 25 by popcorn on Thu Oct 20 05:29:19 1994:

This response has been erased.



#5 of 25 by brighn on Thu Oct 20 06:05:11 1994:

You're at the wedding to show your support for the couple, or for the
individuals therein.  I'd participate fully, including communion,
but I would not say any words of dedication asked of me (in a 
wedding?  -- even communion at a wedding seems odd to me, but 
I haven't been to many weddings).  The God or Gods involved in 
the religious ceremony now that you're not there as a follower,
but as a friend, and your own God(s) should know as much as well.


#6 of 25 by chelsea on Thu Oct 20 11:10:42 1994:

Whenever in this situation I tend to just sit quietly figuring I'm
there to observe.  I wouldn't participate in such rituals without
first understanding what they meant and holding some belief in
what was behind them.  And if this end up concerning a true 
believer sitting nearby then that is his or her problem, no mine.

I'd consider the same to be true if I was visiting another country
where the custom was to stand and hold some pose while the
National Anthem was played.  I would remain quiet and seated
while respecting their traditions, but I wouldn't feel right joining
in so as not to offend or be conspicuous. 


#7 of 25 by chelsea on Thu Oct 20 11:11:35 1994:

(Editor problems.  Sorry.)


#8 of 25 by popcorn on Thu Oct 20 12:47:55 1994:

This response has been erased.



#9 of 25 by brighn on Thu Oct 20 16:03:04 1994:

The best thing to do, of course, is to make your own comfort level
clear *before* the event.  If you don't want to participate in a
foreign religious activity, and the participants expect you to, then
the best thing to do is to not go.  Sitting still and not doing anything
can be more offensive to believers than falsely participating.  True,
that is your neighbors problem, not yours, if they're offended by your
behavior, but religion (and nationality) are important things not to 
offend people on.  

Specific example:  We invited a Christian to our own (Pagan) wedding.
She made sure to ask what, specifically, she would be asked to do, so 
that she w could decide for herself wht ether to come or not.  Because she
was comfortable going in, she was a positive addition to the ceremony.
OTOH, a friend of ours didn't even bother to tell the people invited 
to her Pagan wedding what her religion was, and when they showed up 
to a handfasting, with no idea what was going on, they freaked (quite
naturally) and destroyed the energy.

The example in #0, of course, is about a difference in sects (assuming
the person is "just a simple Lutheran"), not whole religions, and 
presumably you'd know what sort of worshipping there might be (not 
details, necessarily, but certainly a vague idea).  But, in my view, 
the same should apply:  if you're uncomfortable participating in earnest 
and in full, you should explain that when invited, and discuss possible 
alternatives.  

Depending on circumstances, I don't think the nationality issue is the same.
Most likely, the people around you when the anthem is playing will know
you're not one of them, and won't (necessarily) expect you to respond.
The same probably isn't true in a religious setting.

No, you're not supposed to take communion if you haven't been baptized.
There is also no membership card that you have to show to prove that 
you've been baptized, and there's no communion bouncer who throws 
people who take communion out if they haven't been baptized.  :-)




#10 of 25 by chelsea on Thu Oct 20 17:43:53 1994:

Why would my not kneeling be a bother to anyone else?


#11 of 25 by jerryb on Fri Oct 21 02:30:15 1994:

I'd respectfully and quietly sit or stand.  I would not kneel.


#12 of 25 by brighn on Fri Oct 21 22:10:28 1994:

Remember when the Bushes were in England and what a stir they caused by
not being appropriately polite to the royalty?  Remember, Mary, that the
kneeling is an act of deference to the diety being worshipped.  Not kneeling
says on of three things: (1) You don't believe in the deity, and feel it would
be rude to worship  a diety you don't believe in (2) You don't believe in the
deity, and feel it would be silly to worship a deity you don't believe in (3)
You believe in the deity, and don't feel like being reverent. The difference
between(1) and (2) is a subtle one.  In the first one, though, you are being
respectful of the faithful by *not* falsely worshipping. In the second, you are
being rude by implying that the deity is not real. The third is downright
blasphemous.  You are assuming that people would assume that you aren't
kneeling because of (1).  Most (or many) staunchly religious types might
actually assume (2), though.


#13 of 25 by zook on Fri Oct 21 23:29:27 1994:

I think I would quietly (and respectfully) sit.  Standing is appropriate
as a sign of respect.  For me, kneeling in a Catholic church implies
active worship of the Catholic God.  I would not do it for that reason.  It
might be easier to include the kneeling if one were a type (sect??) of
Christian other than Catholic.
Putting it on the other foot, I'm not certain if I would expect my
Christian friends to stand when the Torah is brought forth.  Well, I
guess I would, because (perhaps ethnocentrically) I feel standing is a more
generic form of showing respect for someone (even if you don't believe in
it) than kneeling would be.  That is, standing doesn't imply worship, just
a general sort of support.


#14 of 25 by chelsea on Sun Oct 23 13:27:47 1994:

I don't stand or kneel during a religious ceremony because I don't believe
in a god and it would be inappropriate for me to participate in such
rituals.  Instead, I sit in the back and off to the side, quietly
observing.  I feel this is the most respectful action I can take. 

But lets take a look at it from the worshiper's point of view. If someone
noted I was not kneeling and then started to fret about this, wondering
why I was not willing to participate and feeling somehow offended and
distracted that a non-believer would dare to behave in such a manner in
his church...  Well, I'm not sure such a person is getting his money's
worth out of being a Christian. 

From what I remember from my religious training the Christian attitude
would be to welcome non-believers into the church where they could see, by
example, word and *deeds*, what it means to be a Christian (or a Jew,
Hindu, etc.) For someone to go to Sunday service to then get angry because
someone else isn't kneeling, or wearing better clothes, or attending more
often, or whatever, is pretty hypocritical behavior.  Jesus would not be a
happy camper to see his followers behave in such a manner. 



#15 of 25 by gracel on Mon Oct 24 02:39:46 1994:

re #12 -- you left out an alternative, mine:
        4) You believe in the deity, but you do not normally show
reverence by kneeling.
        I have been Methodist, Reformed, and Free Methodist, but
never part of a church that knelt liturgically except at the
communion rail.  I have attended weddings & other services in
churches with kneelers (I found this piece of furniture puzzling, 
until I saw it demonstrated!) and sometimes used them.  The natives
don't seem to mind, one way or the other -- and let me tell you,
those things are not particularly comfortable, so if you happen to
see someone scowling it's probably not because *you* aren't 
kneeling but because his/her own knees are in pain.  Aim for an
attitude of respect and non-disruption.



#16 of 25 by brighn on Mon Oct 24 05:45:36 1994:

I've used kneelers, and not found them terribly uncomfortable.
I am personally uncomfortable *not* participating, but certainly
can see how participating can make some people uncomfortable.  Since
Chelsea has not wavered the slightest in her original stance, I can
only assume that this item was intended as "here's my position --
tell me I'm right" rather than a sincere request for advice (a 
request for opinions, maybe, but not advice).  Personal attack/growling
aside, I'm not sure that I feel that a Lutheran, a Catholic, and 
a Methodist (to give three examples) are worshipping the same god,
but that's a subtle theological point that would be better argued 
in other confs.

Also, quite right that most religions (Christianity included) have
an open door policy on interested or open-minded folks.  My feeling, to
reiterate, is that to experience what it's like to be a Christian, 
one should really go through all the motions.  But I can hardly talk 
for Christians, no longer being one.


#17 of 25 by chelsea on Mon Oct 24 11:57:20 1994:

More like, "Here's my position, what's yours?".  Kinda what
we do throughout the conferences.  I enjoy hearing the opinion
of others even if I don't agree.  Even more so if I don't agree,
actually.


#18 of 25 by brighn on Mon Oct 24 16:52:17 1994:

O.k., Mary, sorry for the grumping.  I originally misread your intention
in #0.


#19 of 25 by chelsea on Tue Oct 25 11:12:52 1994:

You're not grumping, you're disagreeing.  Thanks for sharing your
opinion.  Really.


#20 of 25 by md on Tue Oct 25 13:58:41 1994:

I think this is a tough one.  For some reason, if I remain 
seated when everyone else stands up it makes me extremely 
uncomfortable.  It probably harks back to that claustrophobic 
feeling when you were a little kid in a crowd of standing 
adults, wishing one of them would lift you up onto his 
shoulders.  Also, it has to do with not being able to see 
anything, which is especially irksome at a wedding.  So, I am 
likely to stand up with the crowd, if only to maintain my line 
of sight.  If others think it's because I don't have the courage 
of my Protestant convictions, let them.  (Actually, I can't 
imagine anyone giving a rat's ass whether I sit or stand.)  

But kneeling is another matter.  I've known *Catholics* who 
don't kneel, or who at most do what a "high" Anglican friend of 
mine calls "the low-church squat," if you know what that means.  
I suppose I'd make an exception, though, if I felt I was really 
making someone uncomfortable by not kneeling.  It hasn't 
happened since my parents were alive, but hey, you never know.  
I agree with chelsea that a true Christian ought to understand 
and forgive, but I also think everyone is there so the bride and 
groom can get married, not so I can test someone's faith.


#21 of 25 by brighn on Tue Oct 25 18:27:18 1994:

I'll agree it depends on why you're there.

If you're there for a wedding, then I doubt that anyone really will notice
whether you participate or not, but I doubt that it will be all that 
important to not participate.  You're there for the couple, not for the 
Dieties; the Dieties are overseeing the couple, but the congregation is
there pramarily for show.


#22 of 25 by roz on Fri Oct 28 11:19:43 1994:

To digress, all this shows how helpful it can be to give thorough
explanations beforehand if it's an occasion likely to bring a lot of
visitors.  I've been to funerals where the mourning customs and the
meanings of some of the symbolism were explained in a litle introduction
ahead of time which I'd bet made visitors much more comfortable about
participating to the level they felt they could.

For me, I agree with what I think Valerie said: I go along with the
ritual aspects of what's going on, like standing, sitting, processing,
etc., but stop short of saying things or taking individually meaningful
action if I'm not a believer in what's going on.


#23 of 25 by ewhisam on Thu Dec 28 03:18:51 1995:

When in Rome do as the Romans do....... Kneeling before the Lord is a sign
of reverence, piety, humility and love as of obedience. The only forbidden
activity is probably communion depending on your particular faith or baptismal
state. Kneeling and rising is also great cardio-vascular endurance exercise.


#24 of 25 by abchan on Tue Jan 16 20:50:45 1996:

I went to Christmas mass a couple of weeks back.  I stood up and sat
down with the others and sang with them too, but I didn't kneel.  It
just seemed awkward for me.  But when everyone stood up and joined 
hands and then later shook everyone's hands and stuff, I went along 
with it.  I guess it's just do what you feel comfortable doing.  I 
didn't really think anything else of it.


#25 of 25 by chelsea on Wed Jan 17 14:05:07 1996:

It's seldom the atheist who gets bent out of shape over
those following the rituals.  Those who tend to get angry
and glare are the "Christians".

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