Anyone here seen Independence Day yet? I thought it was a GREAT movie. If you
haven't seen it yet, I command you to. I will be in the movie theaters all
sumer seeing the same movie over and over again!

        LAND OF THE FREE. . . . AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE
                WE WON'T GO WITH OUT A FIGHT!

166 responses total.

oh, you were at the police riot a cpl saturdays ago, too?

   sorry, i don't take commands from anybody. ;)  'sides, as i've said
elsewhere, i expect movies to have *plots*.

Er, the Arts conference is a much better place for this...

Why?  It's a topic of general interest.  

please don't get too specific with your comments.  a lot of us plan to see
it but have not as yet.  ie don't tell me you didn't like the fact that the
butler did it, k?

There is a clever entry near the end of the credits.  Something like -
The Humane Society supervised all scenes where animals were used.
No animal or alien was harmed in the making of this film.

wheww!, no aliens where hurt.

The movie sounds very republican to me. We lost Vietnam, but the aliens
got what they deserved!

Humph.  What about the Humans?  Were any harmed in the making of this film?

I think most people here, in the on-line community, will agree that the
deux ex machina was pretty silly.  Good thing the aliens go by our protocols.

"The deux ex machina was pretty silly" were essentially my thoughts
too. This movie rated rather low with me in the suspension-of-
disbelief department, especially toward the end. Also, I thought
the characters and their relationships (i.e. the filler they used
between the special effects) were pretty cookie-cutter. However,
the cleverness of the ethnic balance in the final whoop-de-do was
not lost on me. This film's saving grace was that it didn't take
itself too seriously.

As to the special effects -- pretty smashing, but repetitious after
a while. ("Hey, neat scene of a fireball with cars flying around
like tumbleweeds and people running and screaming. Er, didn't we
see one just like it a few minutes ago?") I saw the 1925 silent
version of "Ben Hur" in a theater a few months ago, complete with
live orchestra, and I thought the special effects in that one--
the Star of Bethlehem, the battle at sea,the chariot race --
were more dazzling and affecting than anything ID4 offered up,
despite the far cruder film technology of the time. High-tech
glitz is not everything.

Re #3: Scott, go to your room. :)

PS: Summer agora item 35 is now linked as item 24 in (guess what?)
the ARTS Conference!

(make that item 124...)

Oh sure, and nobody thinks to tell the Sci-Fi fair witnesses...  >8)

This item has been linked to Sci-Fi 82.

I want one of those alien fighters to fly to work in. ;)

You guys make me sick... we'll most of you. Your so caught up in the real
world you can't even go to see a movie. "There so fake. Nothing like that can
happen." Expand you imagination.... God, eeeuuggghh...
IF YOU DON'T LIKE SCIENCE FICTION.... WHY DID YOU COME INTO THIS ANYWAY?
Don't try to be a buisness man/woman all of your lives... remmers.... your
the one I'm talking to... don't make like a two giagantor paragraph about
nothing but gloop about the movie! Don't come here if you didn't like it!!
And don't ANY OF you try to critisise this. Sorry if I was harsh... I dought
if I was... but I wanted to talk my mind....

Re 15 - If you don't want your writing criticized, you shouldn't
be putting it here.  We're all critics, and very free with our
criticism.  Remember that, for many of us, science fiction
should emphasize the SCIENCE, and try to be as realistic as
possible.

That said, I didn't think the story was so bad.  Let's face it,
in any story with aliens invading the Earth, the author has to
come up with some way for the higher-tech invaders to be
defeated, unless s/he wants to go the more difficult route
of having the aliens win.  (Which has been done, but who would
go to see a movie that ended like that?)  The only reasonable
one I've ever seen is _The_War_of_the_World_'s infectious
bacteria, and that's been done.  Anyone here seen Roger Corman's
_It_Conquered_the_World_ ?  An alien that manages to selectively
stop all electric and water supplies all over the world, use
little critters to take over the minds of various people, and
how is it defeated?  The hero burns its eye out with a pocket
blow torch.  Yep.  Uh huh.  Compared to that, the ending of
_Independence_Day_ is worthy of Arthur C. Clarke.

Most of my problems with the film are indicative of why I dislike
most Hollywood films these days anyway, which I can't really
mention here without spoiling the story.

There's a scene in the second half of ID4 where Jeff "I was a good
actor ten years ago" Goldblum addresses Will as "Wil" instead of
as his character's name (which was no more memorable than anything
else about any of the characters.)  Did I (my wife actually) imagine
that or was there really really bad checking on the edit?

hi...i really do admit that sci-fi  has got to be as realistic as possible.
hi flier  and those stuff are damn fizzy ...but how can one be so 
fickle  to do that.....gonna be crazy over doddle ....wooowww....

i am not a fan of science fiction.  i usually will only go see a sci-fi movie
if it has been hyped to the extent that ID4 has been.  i'm not even sure if
i can put some films i have really liked into the right catagories (star wars
and alien nation are two very different films) and i love to be able to
suspend belief.  i am much more tolerant of sci-fi movies because i am not
really a fan and my expectations are very low.  

i am hyper critical of police procedurals (i have more than a fair amount 
of knowledge in this area) that portray things so far beyond the realm of 
reason that the whole movie is ruined for me (ie jamie lee curtis in blue 
steel going into that supermarket by herself when she had never been in 
the place before w/o backup and then being rewarded for her stupidity by 
being taken out of the bag and put in plain clothes. in real life she would 
have been suspened and prolly fired.  all that happened within minutes of 
director's credit fading from the screen.)

as i left ID4 my only comment was that the original stars wars was a much 
better film.

Re #15: I like good science fiction. "ID4" was fun but had some
glaring weaknesses as science fiction. Nah, I won't shut up about
it. I get to "talk my mind" just as much as you do.

The hype for ID4 has sure been out of this world though. The
producers are probably reading the criticism and crying all the way
to the bank...

Re 17 - Wil Smith's character was named "Hiller", your wife
may have heard that as "Wil".

Or perhaps it was the "Fire at will" order.  (Wil Ducks)

I enjoyed the movie.  It had some plot holes, (Why did it take so long
for the military to react?), some logic holes, (Can a 747 really outrun a Mach
wave during takeoff?), and some character holes, (Are exotic dancers really t
nice?)

But, it was fun.  The good guys won in the end even if it was by "Deus Ex 
Machina".


Suspend your disbelief and enjoy it.  And the puns adn references to other
movies.  See how many you can find.

Actually, the exotic dancers I've known really have been
decent folk.  Not perfect, but as Mr. Silverman said in
the movie, "Nobody's perfect."

   well, bru, i can't answer all of your questions, but i do know some women
who used to be exotic dancers. and yes, they are some mighty nice people and
mighty good friends. ;)

   robh slipped in.

Exotic dancers who are also nice people seem to be trendy in movies
these days. The central character in "Striptease" is one.

I had some doubts about a 747 outrunning a mach wave myself, but
my biggest hangup was with the alien spacecraft that just happened
to be a perfect fit for two human pilots despite the aliens'
distinctly un-human anatomy, and the fact that the Air Force pilot
was able to fly it perfectly without any practice. Surely the
controls must have been a *little* different than what he was used
to.

Roger Corman at least could use low budgets to excuse his cheesy
plot twists.

Ah, but part of the problem with a big budget movie is that you
have to get a huge amount of money back to make the investment
pay off, which means you have to aim to a low common denominator
and not waste time on stupid things like scientific accuracy,
that only geeks like us really care about.

But as long as we're picking on the science, how about that
giant shadow that the mother ship cast on the moon as it
passed by, and NOBODY ON EARTH NOTICED IT until it was nearly
in orbit around the Earth?  Does nobody look at the moon any
more?  I'd be nice and argue that the shadow was cast on the
far side, where nobody on Earth could see it, but we saw the
shadow pass over the Apollo 11 landing site, which is most
definitely on the near side.

OK, my geeky duty is done, I'm happy.  >8)

I'm willing to overlook silly little things like a 747 (mostly) outrunning
a fireball with no damage (physical or electrical) as cheap suspense.  I'm
even willing to overlook a crop-duster pilot being able to fly an F-15 with
only an hour's training as a cheap character.  Though they didn't show it,
I can live with assuming that the chairs in the Alien spacecraft were
refitted for human use (sorry, John) and that it must have been cloudy on
the appropriate side of the Earth so that everyone missed the shadow on the
moon (sorry, Rob).

For my pet grudge: how come SETI didn't pick up signals till they passed
the moon?  Sure, the moon would block those signals, but it rotates around
the Earth relatively quickly (28 days).  Did the Alien ship make huge
collapsing orbits in outer space so that they were always hiding behind the
moon?  No, dummy, just assume that they warped in behind the moon (sorry, lk).

The aliens could have had any number of weakness that humans could have
exploited.  I don't want to ruin it for those who haven't yet seen the movie,
so I won't mention that mechanism, but I heard a few grunts of "yeah, right"
echoing my own at the theater.  Of course, that's what I get for going to a
movie with people with expertise in that field....

As for the "fiction" in SciFci, I'm willing to allow the author to make
various *premises*.  Like warp drives and the very existence of aliens.
But when such a premise is introduced as a solution to an existing problem
(not to mention that the premise is impossible), well, I see it as what
distinguishes the good stuff from the mediocre.

Correct. SF is essentially "contingency planning" for possible scenarios, 
and the author is expected, nay.. MUST, make certain basic assumptions. 
These premises frame the story/plot/contingency. The story itself is 
basically a study of how a protagonist (person, alien, country, whatever) 
is expected to handle the premises.

SF is primarily a set of premises/assumptions that the author then 
carries forward to a conclusion, and this conclusion is not ALWAYS 
obvious - these 'plot ironies' (twists) are certainly a writers tool, but 
they also apply when you deal with unknowns and too many variables to 
allow for. The enormous number of variables is exactly why the pentagon 
is continually running simulations, and often using the same scenario - 
the outcomes can vary radically.

Re 28 - Cloudy over one entire hemisphere all at once?  Compared
to weather like that, an alien invasion would only be a minor
problem.  >8)  (And don't say "it was just cloudy over the land
masses", pelple on ships at sea are even more likely to look
at the moon, since there isn't much else to look at out there...)

Oh, ok, the people on ships noticed, but as it was the middle of the
day and only for a fleeting moment, those who saw it thought they
imagined it, and certainly they didn't have a chance to tell anyone
that could have done something about it (at that point, SETI and the
Pentagon already knew that something was going on).    (:

BTW, bear in mind that even if the Pentagon or JCS learned of this 
incoming object, they would HAVE to await the orders of the Prez, and I 
DOUBT they have many plans for an invasion or even a very large meteor 
heading for earth.. The Military tends to think of neighbors and turf, 
rather than "the sky is falling".

The Air Force has shown some interest in preparedness for
a meteor strike, in recent years.  Not much.

Amazing that the CIA has a department that reads novels to see new ideas 
and potential security leaks, but the military is too rigid-minded to try 
something similar, eh?

OTOH, it has been said for years that any nations Military is always 
prepared to win the LAST war, so... Maybe we'll get some 'near-space' 
defenses after "Footfall"?

And let's not even consider why an alien ship going past the moon would cause 
vibrations and, better yet, noise.

The pseudo-human drama is probably what gets most annoying.  Despite the
fact that we've just watched untold millions get vaporized, we're supposed 
to be touched by the death of the first lady, and shocked that a pilot 
would sacrifice himself to take out an alien (like his life would have been 
much anyway given the invasion succeding.)

The noise in such is merely a "dramatic license" to entertain the 
viewers, so far I believe only Alien has tried it (silence) and had it work.

As far as the first lady - she was a bit part in the book, but the 
millions were as well.. Actually, a Kamakazi pilot makes more sense - at 
least it would be consistent with the profile of the character in the book..

Next time you see it, tell me if I was wrong.  In the scene where the ship is 
coming over Washington, we see the shadow creep up the Washington monument,
as if the sun is behind the ship, (But the monument itself is casting no 
shadow).  Let me know.

I wish someone would make "Footfall" into a movie.  That would be good.

I am willing to assume that they were able to learn a lot about the ship
in the 50 years they had to study it.  Possibly even able to translate
some of the language, or even the computer language.  Hell, maybe the 
idea for our computer systems "came" from their research.

If people want to get *really* picky about the SFX...
Did anyone notice during the "fireball" sequence, that cars were flying into
the air *before* the shockwave hit? (I had a chance to slo-mo through part
of that scene, just to double-check)
As to Air Force One outrunning the fireball...
AF1 is not your typical 747. I don't know the specs, but I'm pretty sure it's
been fitted with JATO (Jet Assisted Take-Off), for emergencies. Also, AF1 is
designed for use after a nuclear strike. Therefore the mechanical and electri-
cal systems would be shielded and/or have multi-redundant backups.
With that out of the way, I'd say what I liked best about ID4 was how it
showed nations who had been enemies for generations, uniting for a common
cause.

well, the ONLY scene in the BOOK that seemed entertaining and sensible 
was where the assorted pilots from all sorts of nations were hanging out 
together in the middle of some desert in the middle-east... hehe Damn 
pilots at least had the sense to realize that shooting at each other (at 
least for the duration) was counter-productive.. Of course, in every war 
the pilots can identify with each other (historically), this MIGHT be 
because you aren't exactly a moron if yer flying a billion-plus piece of 
airframe-hardware?

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss