OK, I finally got around to seeing Star Wars Episode II.  I already knew
better than to expect a great movie, so we'll skip all the stuff about the
lousy character development and bad dialogue.

This is full of spoilers, but I'm probably the last person on the planet
to see the film anyway.

Well, not entirely.  If this movie has a reason for existing, than it has to
be to tell the story of where Darth Vader came from, the journey from little
dewey-eyed Anakin Skywalker to a (virtually) remorseless casual killer. 
That's character development.  It should be a character development movie.
We get bits.  Anakin's unusual talent makes him arrogant and obnoxious.  OK,
but it's not fun to watch.  We also see him go into a murderous rage over
the death of his mother and kill a lot of Tuskan Raiders.  OK, but Vader
kills without rage, almost without provocation.  They've still got a long
way to travel.  We get a reprise of the Empirer Strikes Back sequence in
which Luke sense his friends in danger and goes to help them against orders.
But this time the result doesn't seem to lead to any steps toward the dark
side.  So Anakin still needs some major character transformation 2/3 of the
way through the film.  Time is running out.  Since the Lucas version of the
road to eviI seems to travel through the trite, I predict his relationship
with Padme is the lever used to turn him to evil.  She gets killed and he
becomes permanently enraged with the universe.  Or better yet she finally
notices what an amazing dork he is and throws him over for someone smarter,
like Jar Jar Binks maybe, and he spends the rest of his life murdering millions
in a snit over it.

The story of where the empire and the emperor came from is less interesting,
but much better developed in this series of movies.  The Empire didn't
defeat and destroy the Republic.  The Republic evolves into the Empire.  All
of this is carefully plotted out by Senator Palpatine (who I presume is
also Darth Sideous).  His plots work without a hitch.  In this stage he
is consolidating his control of the Republic.  Various people have noticed
what is happening.  Sideous sends his man, Duke whatshisname, to play leader
of the opposition, pulling them all together.  This creates a threat to
the Republic, which Palpatine uses as an excuse to seize power.  This has
all been planned out at least ten years in advance, since Palpatine/Sideous
set up the clone army so that when the time comes, the apparant threat
against the Republic isn't one they are unprepared to deal with.  Se we
get to see lots of signs of the Republic turning into the Empire - the
Jango clone army are predecessors of imperial storm troopers, the republic
fleet looks like imperial destroyers, etc.  Interestingly it is the opposition
that draws up the first plans for the Death Star, but the Duke appropriates
them.

The Jedi, meanwhile, are blind as bats.  They fight for one faction against
the other, mostly without realizing that both "sides" are being manipulated
by the Sith Lords.  Maybe this is part of what turns Anakin to the dark side -
the Jedi proving themselves utterly and completely useless in their appointed
role of keeping the peace.

So far the only setback I've seen for the Sith has been the death of Darth
Maul.  But Mauls job was to slow down the Jedi enough so that they didn't
resolve the Naboo situation before Palpatine could use it to climb to
leadership.  The Federation wasn't supposed to win that war, just cause
lots of anxiety.  That was accomplished so Maul did not die in vane.  He
seems much less dangerous than the duke anyway, so he was probably pretty
disposable.

It'd be nice to see the Jedi actually do something useful in terms of
engaging the enemy.

83 responses total.

Darth Vader, in the original movies, is not a free agent; he's pretty 
much a mental-dominated slave of the Emperor.  He only throws that off 
when he's fighting Luke in Return of the Jedi.  In Ep II we see the 
influence of Palpatine beginning to take effect.  Anakin is overwhelmed 
by the death of his mother and destroys the Tuscan village as you said; 
doubtless he'll go into a funk (a fugitive, I'd think) and Palpatine 
will take over his mind in the 3rd movie.

The thing about destroying the village wasn't very believable, was it?  
I mean, up until then he's a young arrogant punk with a lot of 
potential.  He's not evil, he's just moving into the range of 
insufferable.  We've all been there, to some extent.  I don't know why 
he had to destroy the village.

How could Padme have anything to do with him after *that*?  I mean, she 
is *clean*.  What kind of person do you have to be, to hang out with a 
guy who destroys innocent people, a whole village, because he's angry?  
Not the kind of person she is, I wouldn't think.  Maybe he kidnaps 
her... but that ought to result in a dynastic scandal, which would 
leave Leia and Luke out of the succession, wouldn't it?

Why are Luke and Leia royalty, anyway?  I thought Padme was a temporary 
queen and got replaced by someone else after a term in office.

I'm so confused.  But then, I'm no student of Star Wars.  I just watch 
the movies, and forget half the stuff from the last movie by the time 
the next one comes out, like you're supposed to do.

I believe Leia was a Princess via her adoptive parents on Alderaan.
I've never heard Luke described as royalty, FWIW.

According to the novelization (tm) of Episode II, Leia's adoptive father is
Senator Organa (Jimmy Smits).

Ah.  I didn't know that.  I thought Leia was royalty by reason of her 
heredity, and since Luke is her twin, that would of course make him 
royal as well.

How can a novelization of Episode II have anything about Leia?  Padme 
and Anakin are seriously involved, but there's no mention that she's 
pregnant or anything, not from what I remember.

It's not like the novelizations and spin-off novels are going to be 100%
canonical.  I recall somebody telling that one of the novel series ended up
with Han Solo being royalty as well.  :P

I haven't read any of the books.  I thought Lucas was maintaining tight 
control over the books and movies to make sure they *were* consistent 
to a high degree.

Well, Padme is bright and resourceful and has many fine virtues, but seems
to have a Death-Star-sized blind spot when it comes to judging others.

As queen, she chooses as her Senate representative - Palpatine.

As a senator, she chooses as her stand-in - Jar-Jar Binks.

As a private individual, she chooses as her husband - Anakin Skywalker.

She seems to trust everyone she knows, regardless of what she actually
knows about them.  She'd have done better picking random people off the
street.  I think we can blame the entire fall of the republic on her
disasterously bad judgement.

This is the odd thing about this series of movies - on closer examination,
the heros all turn out to be such complete dopes and dupes.  I wish someone
would put up some kind of decent fight.

  In the extremely unlikely event that George Lucas read my criticism
  of Episode 2 and sent goons to abduct me, had me locked in a room,
  and demanded "OK, smartass, if you think it's easy then *you* write
  a better movie from these same basic pieces.." I might've insisted on
  something like the following:

  I thought that Episode 2 might have been at least marginally interesting
  if it had turned out that Count Dooku (or whatever his name is)
  and his allies were actually leading a legitimate but misunderstood
  underground resistance to the growing power of the soon-to-be-emperor.
  The Jedi, used to being mere civil peace-keepers, unaccustomed to
  direct intervention in the politics of the Republic, and over-reliant
  on the use of their mystical "Force" powers instead of their own
  judgment (powers which are now blocked or misdirected by another
  group of "Force" adepts, the Sith), are duped into supporting the
  wrong side and wind up being the lever used to topple the Republic,
  after which the victorious emperor turns on them and crushes them.
  It still wouldn't have been a particularly good story but it would at
  least have had one or two elements present in better stories.

  As far as I'm concerned the Anakin story is irredeemable at this point.
  Even Lucas seems much more interested in the fall of the Republic.

I think that Mike's version is almost what happened.  Dooku is a Sith 
baddy, but the alliance he organized seems to consist of people who 
think they are opposing the Sith.  The Federation is in it because they 
are pissed off about the way they were used and discarded in Episode I.
Many of the other races are concerned over the way that power is being 
concentrated in the Republic, and believe the rumors that the Dark 
Lords are behind it.  They're the ones who can see that the Republic is 
already turning into the Empire.  I think Obi-wan overhears parts of 
this, but ignores it completely.  The Jedi are fighting on one of the 
wrong sides.  The other side contains most of the people who should be 
their natural allies, but since it is being manipulated by the future 
Emperor too, it's really just another wrong side.

What's interesting is the way this is all down-played, so it can be 
neatly ignored by the casual movie goer who just wants to see action 
and adventure and special effects.  The good guys appear to win.

Reminds me of the premier of some TV series whose name I've forgotten. 
Somebody Tom Selleck-like played a PI.  A client being threatened by 
various badies hires him.  An hour of action and romance goes by.  The 
PI falls in love with the client.  In the end, all the bad guys are 
dead.  So is the client, most of her friends and family, and a large 
number of innocent by-standers.  Lots of real estate and many vehicles 
have been destroyed.  The sole surviver is the heroic PI.  Who should 
obviously be locked up for life, having turned a little problem into a 
national disaster.  But we're expected to be impressed enough by this 
moron to want to watch a whole TV series about his further adventures.
The Star Wars heros make him look like an amature.  He only screwed up 
a county.  These guys are messing up a Galactic Republic.

Personally, if I was forced at gun point to write the thing, I'd want 
at least some of the Jedi to figure out what is going on and who is 
behind it.  This would split the Jedi.  Maybe Anakin is one of the ones 
who figures it out, and in trying to oppose it comes into opposition 
with the other Jedi.  So his betrayal of the Jedi actually preceeds his 
joining to the dark side.  Maybe the other Jedi come to believe he is 
on the Dark Side before he really is, and their betrayal of him is part 
of what actually drives him into the dark.

        huh...huh...huh.. Yoda kicked buttt.

I don't think Master Sideous/The Emperor = Palpatine.

I just got back from seeing the movie for a 2nd time at the cheap 
theater.  I saw it the first time shortly after it came out, and don't 
have a tremendous memory for events.  I was surprised by how much I 
missed, and also by how little really happened.

After Dooku has his battle with Yoda, he returns to the central planet 
(see, I can't even remember it's name), and meets with "Master 
Sideous".  He's the emperor from the first "Star Wars" movies.  There's 
no mistaking it.  He's not Palpatine; there's no mistaking that, 
either.  Palpatine is too tall, and has a different voice.

I'd forgotten that Anakin and Amidala got married; it's at the very end 
of the movie.  So that's where the kids came from; Luke and Leia.

But it's *after* Anakin goes and kills off the Tuskan village that 
Amidala falls in love with him.  She's not dominated; he says he can't 
control the mind of anyone who's not a weak person. She knows exactly 
what he did; he describes it to her in a fair amount of detail.  It's 
right after that that she dashes off "to save Obi Wan", thus forcing 
(permitting) Anakin to go to the rescue.

Why would she do *that*?  Anakin should be in jail at that point.  Yoda 
knew he'd done something awful, Amidala knwe, and Anakin himself has 
quite a bit of character (with some huge gaping holes) so he probably 
wouldn't deny it.  This all happened "a long time ago", so maybe the 
ghost of Anakin Skywalker survived to reincarnate, in milder form, as 
Dirty Harry.  At best, she should have followed him into a life as 
interplanetary fugitive.

How come both Palpatine and Amidala are senators, anyway?  They're from 
the same planet.  There are thousands of planets; surely they don't all 
have two senators.  Naboo didn't seem that important to me, as planets 
go.

I liked it much better the 2nd time.  I liked it quite a lot the 2nd 
time, despite the large areas where nothing whatsoever is happening 
other than meaningless battles that go on for a long time.  And my son 
liked those, so I guess it's all right they're in there.

I think I will, for the sake of having a positive view of the Jedi, 
assume they pushed Anakin and Amidala together in hopes of getting some 
decent offspring.  Yoda foresaw Luke and Leia; it's probably why he and 
all the rest of the Jedi are too busy to notice anything else 
whatsoever.  It's difficult to get from there to Leia being a princess, 
Obi Wan growing old and Luke growing up on the same planet, and Yoda 
off on the other side of the galaxy somewhere, but as Jan pointed out, 
otherwise the Jedi Council is stupid.

Anyway, the Jedi have the prophecy about Anakin becoming the savior of 
the Balance of the Force, so they're probably just hanging around 
waiting for him to do his job.

Hmm.  I thought it was fairly obvious that Palpatine was the future Emperor.
Who else you got in mind for the Emperor, then?

I thought it was obvious, too, but they sure didn't seem like the same 
person when I watched the movie again.

Palpatine is grooming Anakin, whom we *know* is going to be Darth 
Vader.  He's cleverly moving to take control of the Republic.  We can 
see the storm troopers being, uh, grown; they're going to be the 
emperor's military forces.

Maybe Palpatine is getting duped, too.  Maybe he's a shape shifter.  
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what I'm seeing, but I think we're going to 
get a different emperor as some kind of zinger in the next movie.

Re #11:
    Palpatine is now Chancellor, so I would venture that Amidala filled his
former Senate position.

    I mostly remember the name "Palpatine" as being that of the Emperor from
movies 4, 5, and 6.

Was it?  Well, there goes my analysis.

Yep - though the Emperor didn't appear in "episode 4" and
I don't think his name was mentioned in "episode 5", I
definitely remember him being referred to in "Return of
the Jedi" as the Emperor Palpatine.

And if my memory isn't canonical enough for you:

        http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/

  Stray observation:

    "A super-powered youngster embarks on a new path after the traumatic
    realization that his inattention contributed to the death of a close
    family member."

    Which summer blockbuster am I talking about?  Episode 2 or "Spiderman"?

re #16: Oh, no; you're corroborated.  I said I'm not the most attentive 
of movie watchers.  I just go and watch the pretty images flash by, for 
the most part.  Jan pointed out tons of things I would never have 
remembered from the movie, and wouldn't have noticed the 2nd time I 
watched it if it weren't for his analysis.

Actually, just because we have "Emperor Palpatine" in episode 6 and
"Senator Palpatine" in episode 1 doesn't actually mean they are the same
guy.  They could be cousins.  Or father and son, like the Skywalkers. 
But Senator Palpatine does seem well on his way to becoming Emperor.

Actually, from what I've heard of Lucas's plot outline for episode 7-9
(which he apparantly no longer plans to actually make), the dark lord
has passed through a succession of bodies in his lifetime.  Apparantly
the power of the dark side tends to decay the body you are in, but if
you are sufficiently powerful you can jump bodies.  So maybe Senator
Palpatine is only one of the minions of Darth Sideous, and eventually
Darth Sideous takes him over, becoming Emperor Palpatine.  Or something
like that.

Just because George Lucas doesn't make episodes 7-9 does not mean they 
won't be made.  Look at Star Trek and the James Bond movies for two 
examples of series' of movies which were continued after the death of 
the creator.  I expect there to be new Star Wars movies occasionally as 
long as I'm alive.

  I hadn't considered that, but that's probably a reasonably good bet
  as long as the films keep making money.

It might be a good thing.  I think there are a lot of directors who could make
better star wars movies than Lucas can.  I recently watched the original movie
again - and you know, he used to be a better director than he is now.

I'd tended to assume that Senator and Emperor Palpatine are the same 
guy because they're played by the same actor.  Though that's obviously 
not proof of anything, especially given that Anakin and Vader are 
supposed to be one guy played, so far, by four actors.

Does anyone here know what is going to happen in SWIII?  Has the plot been
released yet.  I only know that there is a fight to the death between ANakin
and Kenobi and that Anakin falls into a volcano(!) and, as a result, is
incarcerated in the cyborg Vader suit.

 Other things you can deduce:

  1)  Palpatine will emerge victorious as emperor.
  2)  Kenobi and Yoda will survive in exile.
  3)  If Amidala hasn't given birth by the end of the film
      she'll survive, too.
  4)  If the last two episodes were anything to judge by,
      Episode III will be like "a great disturbance in the
      Force, as if a million [star wars fans] cried out and
      then were silenced."

LOL.

Here are a few pieces of information from www.millenniumfalcon.com:

1.  At the beginning of the film, Palptaine is kidnapped by Dooku and a huge
space battle erupts over Coruscant.
2.  Anakin frees Palpatine and kills Dooku in the process.
3.  As a reward, Palpatine influences the Jedi Concil to allow Anakin to joins
its ranks. Mace and theo other Jedi are upset at this and Anakin finds himself
largely ostracized.
4.  At the same time, Anakin is being haunted by dreams that his wife will
die in childbirth.
5.  Anakin confides his fears to Palpatine who tells Anakin the story of teh
Sith, who sought eternal life.  The Jedi sought harmony with the force yet
the SIth sought to cotnrol it via their power.
6.  Obi-Wan is sent to assassinate General Grievous, a cyborg.  During his
hunt, Obi-Wan discovers that Palpatine is actually Darth Sidious.
7.  Mace Windu and the other Jedi seek todestroy Sidious.  Sidious/Palpatine
kills all of the Jedi except Mace.  
8.  Anakin, seeing Mace threaten Palpatine, makes his decision to join the
Sith, partly in a desire to save his wife and partly from revenge.
9.  Anakin kills Mace.
10.  Anakin then lures the Jedi children into a trap, killing them all.
11.  Palpatine orders the clones to exterminate the Jedi and proclaims himself
emperor.
12.  Obi-Wan and Yoda, the only two surviving Jedi, regroup. They decide to
confront the Sith.
13. Anakin is sent by Palpatine to exterminate the final spearatists.
14.  Obi-Wan follows Padme to the volcano planet, where she is hoping to
rendezvous with her husband.
15.  Yoda fights Palaptine, is overwhlemed but escapes with Bail Organa.
16.  Anakin reveals to Padme he is palying Palpatine and the Jedi off each
other, hoping the Sith and Jedi will destory each other.  He wants to rule
hte galaxy with her.
17.  Obi-Wan revelas himself.  Thinking Padme has betrayed him, he chokes her.
18.  Obi-Wna and Anakin duel. Ultimately, Anakin is overwhlemed and burnt by
lava.  His lungs are destroyed by the fumes.  
19.  Obi-Wan retreats and rendezvouses with Yoda and Bail.  Yoda reveals he
has been in touch with the spirit of Qui-Gon, who has revelaed to him the true
nature of the force.  Yoda nad Obi-Wan must go into hiding to meditate on this
and not act.
20.  Padme gives birth and then dies.
21. Anakin, now Vader and a complete puppet of the Emperor Palaptine, stand
s by his master and watches the Death Star being built.
22.  Yoda and Obi-Wan give the children to their adoptive aprents and go into
exile.  When the children come to them, tehy shall act.

Very much a pulp story, as usual but hopefully there will be less conspiracy
theories this time and more simplicity of plot.  I am hopeful that the
Faustian overtones will predominate and there will be some greater atmosphere.
Don't expect too much in the way of character development or strong dialogue,
though.  Watch Blake's 7 on the new DVD releases if you want a truly great
space opera!

Cheers,

David

... Besides, Servalan is a sexier dictator of the universe than poor old
Palpatine!

I just re-read what I wrote.  Apologies for all of those disgusting typos
above.  Hope my very rushed summary makes some sense, though I think even the
fans on the site I gained the information from are having a hard time piecing
all of the leaks together.

Ultimately, it will be a trite story.  I can bet that the secret that Qui-Gon
reveals to Yoda is in the nature of a selfless, comapssionate love, something
which the Jedi (in a very heavy-handed way) shown to be lacking.  Lucas is
brave (or foolish) to be eschewing the simplisitc moral black and whites of
the original trology (black hat versus white hat cowboys) for a world in which
the heroes are shown to be corrupt and shallow and Anakin, the everyman in
this bildungsroman is shown to be corrupted by the society around him.  He
tries to act to change the evil order but discovers that ``two wrongs don't
make a right.''  Unfortunately, I fear the film will fail as we simply have
not had the opportunity to grow to care for Anakin at all.  Neither he nor
Padme stand out as virtuous, tragic characters in the first two films.

The major problems have been the awkward strucutre of episodes 1 and 2 and
the very convoluted conspriacy story.  The enormous cast of cahracters in
episode 1 made it particularly furstrating.  Why have additional comic relief
from Jar Jar when we already had the two droids?  What is the point of
additonal characters such as Ric Olie, who had almost as much screen time as
Kenobi?

What is the real difference between the Jedi and Sith?  Both religions use
violence to gain thier aims?  Both use emotions cynically?  Maybe teh Force
is out of balance becasue they have become so much alike?  If so, it could
be inferred in a much better way.  What is Palpatine's motivation?  Why does
he seek dominanace/revenge?

Episode 2 was poor in that so much of the necessary character development to
at least make Padme likeable was edited fro the final film.  Not too mention
the lack of tension in the lamentable, soap-opera love story.  They were in
hiding, for goodness sake! Where was the danger?  Why does teh bounty hunter
flee from one faction (the clones0 to the other (Dooku's droids.)  Is he part
of the wider conspiracy?  Of course, Lucas is often criticised for his
romanticisation of war.  In Episode 2, his token refernece to refugees is also
trite and almost insulting.

Despite this, I still have an affection fo rthese films.  Episode 3 may be
good, if it has the atmosphere and tension (both in terms of the action and
psychological/inter-personal drama) of Empire Strikes Back.

 Anakin is Everyman?

 This is the child who was born to a virgin and has stronger powers
 than the Jedi have ever seen before, right?  That's "Everyman"?

 I agree, though, that the last film is going to have a huge problem
 since after the second film it's difficult or impossible to identify
 much with any of the unsympathetic and uncharismatic main characters.

Why, oh why, do people need to read spoilers? Don't worry, I didn't bother.

I think he is an everyman in the sense that the temptations he faces are those
we all face.  You are gith, though,a bout certain aspects of it.  Is he
mesianic?  What is the Jedi religion in that only a few are privileged to be
in it.  


Emotionally Anakin is one of us, though even more stereotypically so.  All
of the characters in the films are supposedly archetypes.

Thank you for this bevy of spoilers.

Yes, that was my point.  Lucas' vision does seem muddled as the person must
be born into this elitist religion yet, at the same time, his character is
emotinally very much like us.

Another issue I have with the prequels, taht no one seems to have commented
upon, is the lack of character to everything...  I mean, the ships were all
personified in the original films, such as Millenium Falcon and the X-Wing
Fighters.  I would not have a clue what the name of that silver ship of
Amidala's is called (if anything) all those yellow fighters from Episode 1.

The poor acting is also a great detriment.  I believe that SF films really
do need one great character actor in them.  ALec Guinness really gave teh
early films their heart.  If only there were a few character actors in this
new one, rather than so many CGI cartoon characters.

Anyway, despite all of my complaints, I have enjoyed the films and,y es, it
is a guilty pleasure of mine to read the spoilers.  No doubt I will contribute
a few more dollars to the Lucas moneymaking machine come May.

Problem- Padme can't die in childbirth- if she did how would Leia have 
any memories of her? (And she does)

Probably Lucas will edit that out of the "later" episodes so that canon is
achieved/preserved.

Why did Dooku kidnap Palpatine.  Surely he knew he was Sidius?  Or is that
wrong?  Why did Palpatine allow himself to be kidnapped?  Did Dooku the
apprentice just wanna know off his boss and become top dog?  Did he think he
really could?

Alex, if the information on the site can be trusted (I have no idea how
genuine it is) Padme definitely dies in childbirth and not from her physical
injuries.  From this, speculation has arisen that it is either from her broken
heart (heaven help us) or that Anakin, as a parasitic Sith, has somehow
drained her lifeforce away.  Anyway, from this, Leia's comments regarding
memories of her mother are apparently to show how strong the force is in her,
that she has vision of the past.  (More like another plot contradiction to
me!)

No one yet knows why Dooku kidnaps Sidious.  Presumably, Palpatine
double-crosses Dooku somewhere as he wants Anakin to become his new
apprentice.  Again, Lucas is merely making the narrative more and more
convoluted.  Presumably he is trying to show how the Sith will even betray
each other.

I believe in episode 6 Luke says "I have no memory of my mother".

RE #37- well obviously he's not as strong as Leia. ;)

Except when he's engaged in Jedi-mind-tricks arm wrestling...  ;-)

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss