I think it's time for a new discussion.  Has anyone else here read
both the Honor Harrington books by David Weber and the Vorkosigan
books by Lois McMaster Bujold?
I get a similar feel from both, and find it interesting that the
male author has a female lead character while the female author
has a male lead character.

8 responses total.

I've talked about the Honor Harrington books somewhere here before.  If you
like them, and especially if you like the action more than the politics, than
you should read the original:  C. S. Forrester's Horiatio Hornblower books.

Weber's space ships are specially designed to work as much as possible like
sailing ships.  Manticore is a monarchy because England was.  Ranks, customs,
even the wording of orders are lifted from the age of sail.  Weber does very
gripping battle scenes, but they feel straight out of Forrester.

Weber's books, however, are full of politics, pitting the enlightened monarchy
of Manticore against the degenerate pseudo-democracy of Haven.  However, I
think his politics are all wet.  The political situations that come up and
the strategies used to resolve them are equally implausible.  In the last book
I read, a planet that had been fighting a guerilla war for generations to
break free of a military occupation by the Havenites is finally liberated.
And what does their new government do, first thing.  Petition Manticore asking
if they can pretty please be annexed to their country.  Huh?  Weber gives some
explanations for why this happens, but they make no psychological sense.  Most
of the political stuff isn't quite that absurd, but it never really rings true
either.  There are some "good guys" on the Havenite side, but you get the
feeling that in this universe all "good guys" of course agree with each other
on all important questions of duty and morality.  Two "good guys" never have
fundamental disagreements with each other, and, in fact, all good guys
eventually defect to the good guy side.  (Maybe this is why Weber thinks it
makes sense for a newly independent plant to throw away their independence
first chance they get - after all, they are "good guys" so they'll want to
merge their country with the other "good guys".  Phooey.)

Sadly this stuff is taking up more and more of the books.  In the last book
Honor spends the whole book on dubious politicing, while some other character
fights a few battles.  Sad, because Weber does write pretty gripping and
convincing battle scenes.

Honor Harrington may be female, but these are definate "guy books".  Their
female readership is probably non-existant.  It's all guts and glory.  The
feminist streak in the books is real and a bit unusual, but there is no real
feminine sensibility here.  When Honor is fighting, she is brilliant.  When
she isn't, she is boring.  At this point, Weber has built up the capabilities
of the Manticorians so much that it's hard to imagine any battles in which
the Havenites aren't trivially whumped.  If so, the series will probably
slip entirely into politics, and become hopeless.

Bujold is a much more well rounded writer than Weber is.  Her books usually
work well on all levels (though the series is definately uneven).  They are
certainly packaged as "guy books" with the early books especially having a
strong military component.  But Miles Vorkosigan, like Honor Harrington, is
getting to be more of a politician than a warrior in the later books. 
Luckily, the political landscape he maneuvers through isn't as insipid, and
he manages to remain interesting even without a war going on.  At the core,
these books are the life story of Miles Vorkosigan, and it is our interest
in all facets of his absurdly multifaceted character that maintain our
interest through the whole series.

Solar sails?

The most enthusiastic Honor Harrington fan of my acquaintance is 
female - a loud and assertive one, to be sure, but not unusually so 
among science-fiction fans.  Certainly not a jock or a military type.  
(And I've known a few female military officers: wouldn't be surprised 
if they turned out to be Honor fans too.)

"a planet that had been fighting a guerilla war for generations to
break free of a military occupation by the Havenites is finally 
liberated. And what does their new government do, first thing.  
Petition Manticore asking if they can pretty please be annexed to their 
country."

I haven't read the book, so I can't speak to this particular case, but 
the general situation is not impossible.  Texas broke free of Mexico 
and immediately petitioned to join the U.S.: it stayed an independent 
republic for 9 years or so only because the U.S. made it wait.  
Admittedly there were special circumstances, but the point is, it's 
possible.

The following are not my words!  They are those of my friend the female 
Honor Harrington fan, to whom I showed resp:1 and who has these 
comments:

"Weber decided quite intentionally to take the wet-navy tactics of the
Nelson era and put them into space.  He doesn't have the 
characterization skills of Forester or O'Brian, but if a reader can get 
through the technical infodumps he's prone to and is willing to work 
within this tactical context, she will go along for the death rides
because she cares about the fates of Honor and her comrades. 

I have lots and lots of bones to pick with Weber's politics since I am
decidedly left of center and he's on the right.  My personal peeve is 
that he hasn't really shown anybody with liberal/progressive politics 
in the Star Kingdom of Manticore that isn't venal and self-serving
at worst or ineffectual at best.  The People's Republic of Haven seems 
to be his extrapolation of how he thinks the left's policies can be the 
ruination of a society.  Weberphile fandom does seem to be rather 
vocally right-wing when the discussions veer into RL politics, but 
those of us on the left who like his stuff (and I know a few of us are 
out there keeping solidarity with each other) pretty much have decided 
to keep closeted with our personal beliefs in order to avoid 
flamewars in the online discussions. 

It's not entirely clear that some of the more admirable characters on 
the Havenite side of the war will ever defect to the Manties, and it 
could very well be the case in future books where they're on the side 
of right and Honor's side isn't!

I'd say that the gender balance in Weber's readership is probably 70-30
in favor of testosterone, but I've managed to hook up online with a 
network of women who love the stories (most of us self-identify as 
feminists).  The men in our fandom do seem to be more in love with the 
techie details; the women are more interested in the personal 
relationships, historical context, and politics, but it isn't a hard 
and fast distinction.

What got me sucked into the series back in the mid-90s was the way Weber
managed to present women in combat in both the Manticoran and Havenite 
forces in a very matter-of-fact manner, unlike the premise in say, the 
Classic Star Trek universe, where women were quite decidedly excluded.  
There's also a good tale of how a formerly isolated patriarchal and 
polygynous culture is having to adapt to dealing with more egalitarian 
cultures.  When the story digresses into more femme tidbits, I'd say 
that Weber probably could use some critical commentary from his female
readership.

As for the Manties being just way too good in this conflict, we've 
reached a turning point in the series after book 9 where lots of the 
ongoing plot lines have been resolved. There is absolutely
no guarantee that Manticore will continue to do everything right, 
especially if the conflict widens to include two other major political 
entities (the Solarian League and the Andermani Empire).

I play in both Bujold and Weber fandom, and there's a fairly large
crossover audience.  I agree that Bujold is a far more well-rounded 
writer than Weber is; she does a far better job of characterization, 
and she's got the skills to play with various genre conventions (the 
Regency genre in A Civil Campaign, mysteries in Komarr) while staying 
within the Vorkosigan saga.  I'd be absolutely delighted if David could 
hone his writing skills by not falling prone to infodumps and
improving his characterizations.  I think that's what he's going to 
need to do to get the critical acclaim that Lois has gotten 
(Hugos/Nebulas)."

I also found the San Martino situation quite believable.  "We have been
fighting an occupying country for 30 years, and another country just freed
us.  The country that was occupying us is still around, and could attack again
at any time.  Do we try to stay alive by ourselves or do we ask our rescuers
to ally permanently with us?
"

I also agree with the lady who said that Weber needs to reduce the infodumps
and improve the characterization.

Well, obviously I like the Honor books well enough to keep reading them. 
Watching Honor fight her way out of a corner is always excellent fun.

Weber's politics frankly puzzle me.  He seems to have a generic right-wing
contempt for all liberal ideas, except that he seems to be feminist and he
has a soft spot for monarchy.  That's just weird enough that you'd expect a
fairly open mind to be behind ideas like that.  Except that he seems unable
to conceive of anyone being liberal without being evil and corrupt.  Politics
is all about the conflict of strongly held beliefs.  A writer who can't see
more than one side of a question just isn't going to be able to say anything
interesting about politics.

That's right.  I'd forgotten that he found a way in the last book to keep
Manticore from whumping Haven - he let the liberals take over the Manticore
government and do a bunch of stupid things.

You're also right that Grayson politics is just a bit more interesting than
Manticorian or Havonite politics.  Partly Graysonites are divided over the
issue of feminism.  Weber actually seems to be able to see both sides of
that issue enough to depict "good guys" on both sides of it (though they
all get grudgingly won over to Weber's side at a pretty steady rate).

I've got a lot of friends who like Honor, but I've never managed to get past
Weber's writing skills (or lack thereof). I do adore the Vorkosigan books.

As I find it quite impossible to imagine anyone to be conservative 
without being evil and corrupt (a view for which U.S. politics of the 
last decade, nay century, appears to me to provide ample 
corroboration), it appears that I have done well to avoid David Weber.  
Not to mention Michael Flynn and a whole bunch of other arch-
conservative sf writers.

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