It seems that a lot of Grexers I've "met" profess to be Pagans. Growing up
in the Bible Belt, I can't say I came across many self-professing Pagans.
What is a Pagan, anyway? Weere you raised to be one, and is there a church
you  go to, much like Christianity? If you were not raised Pagan, how did you
come to be one? What are tenets, if any, of Paganism? Let's talk amongst
ourselves..

587 responses total.

I am curious!

As some of you know, I am a Christian. I became one when I was about 13 or
so. I got saved, meaning that I asked the Lord Jesus Christ to come into my
life and I vowed to serve Him and only HIm. My parents took me to a Baptist
church growing up, but were not overly religious... they just tried to teach
me about good will and kindess and love and all that. I never questioned it
because this was something I'd grown up around, and al my friends came from
Christian homes. I don't ever regret becoming a Christian, and will raise my
children to be Christians, although in the end it will be a decision that is
theirs alone to make. I have dated guys who are not Christians, and it always
failed because we just could not connect on issues. I have friends who are
not Christians, and I respect their views, but if they ask me about my
Christianity i will not hold back from them. I don't feel comfortable forcing
my views on people, although there was a time when I was forceful.

There have been times when I know I could not have gotten through a situation
without the help of God. Sometimes the only thing you can do is pray. I love
knowing that reassurance is there and I have someone to run to... and face
it, we all need to run to someone sometimes.

So... if you are pagan, do you pray? And if so, to whom? Do you have any
rituals? Different holidays? Is there a Pagan church? I don't mean to make
anyone feel weird, it's just I have never met a Pagan that I know of, and
there seem to be a lot of you here.

 I am catholic, but Marlene calls me a pagan. ;)

  I don't understand Paganism either. I'd be nowhere without Jesus.

This response has been erased.

"Paganism" collectively refers to a lot of different religions, typically
ones that are older than Christianity.  I don't know that it's appropriate 
to try to figure "what religious holidays do Pagans follow?" any more
than one might try to determine "what religious holidays do you 
monotheists follow?"

I agree with Marc. Paganism is another word for polytheism, or the worship
of multiple gods. The ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptoans were Pagans. 
In fact most religions are pagan. The three Western monotheistic
religions being the main exceptions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

My guess is that most of the Pagans on grex are Hindu, but these are not 
the ones you are talking about, I suspect. 

The strict dictionary definition of pagan(which varies somewhat from
dictionary to dictionary) but can be roughly paraphrased as: "Anyone who
does not believe in the Judeo/christian concept of god". By this definition,
buddhists, moslems, taoists, hindis, etc, are all pagans.

Alot of people who use the term "pagan" today are actually refering to a
relatively new movement called "neo-paganism", which is an attempt to
recreate the older, nature based, religions. There is alot of cross-over
between wicca, and the larger umbrella of neo-paganism.

In the ideal, most modern pagan beliefs are clooser to a philosophy than
a religion, in that there is rarely an acknowledgement of any external
diety, and growth and strength are supposed to come from a better 
understanding of the self. Dogmatism is heavily frowned upon, as is the
concept of there being one over-riding truth for everyone. The concept
is that everyone has to find their own truth and path. Ie: The concept
of "The truth is all written down in our bible/koran/tora/littlebook/etc,
just read that, and you'll have all the truth you need", is usually
completely rejected. Also, the concept of formalized, "official" ritual
tends to be rejected in preference to ritual that is customized to the
individual/group.

OTOH, my experience has shown that this ideal is rarely seen. Most
modern pagans tend to be disaffected christions who were driven away
by the outdated moral structure of christianity, yet there seems to be
some basic need in the human animal to create and codify rituals and
then practice them over and over. There is also a very strong tendancy 
to continue to "pray/whorship/whatever" to an external diety and to ask
him/her/it to solve our problems.

I disagree with srw's statement that: "Paganism is another word for
polytheism". "pagan" is a word that was invented by the christian
religion and means "anybody who doesn't believe in our god". A monotheist,
or an atheist can also, correctly, be called a pagan.

Seems like the word "Paganism" has something of a wild-card word.  A lot
of people read different things into it, and it is an umbrella for a lot of
different faiths.  I'm not an expert, and don't regard myself as a neo-pagan,
but I know some neo-pagan groups are definitely theistic, and some are pretty
monotheistic.  Goddess worship certainly isn't unusual.  I'd say that the
Neo-pagan movement has several major characteristics:  (1) they are based on
remanents of pre-Christian European faiths, though their historical basis
is sometimes rather weak;  (2) they are often strongly into group rituals;
(3) there is usually a lot of latitude for creativity in developing new
rituals and experimenting with alternative forms of worship;  (4) they often
have strong nature-worship themes, with rituals held outdoors and a strong
association between their gods and nature;  (5) they have very little
fixed dogma or national hierachy.  Each local group evolves it's own rules
and rituals.  This is why it is hard to get an answer to questions like
those beeswing asks -- every different group does things differently.  They
share ideas and insights, but there isn't any one answer for "what Wiccans
believe," much less "What Neo-Pagans believe."  There is often also a certain
sense of privacy, if not necessarily secrecy, related to their beliefs.

Of course, I could be wrong on some of this, and there are surely groups to
which some of my comments don't apply.  Probably there are lots of people
here who could give you more accurate information.  For some reason there
are lots of pagans with computers.

In the past, "pagan" has referred to all kinds of polytheism.  Native 
Hawaiians used to be called "pagans."  I believe as the word "pagan" 
is currently used, it refers to polytheistic pre-Christian Europeans.  
Nigel Pennick and Prudence Jones, two pagan historians, wrote a book 
called _A History of Pagan Europe_ that gives an excellent scholarly 
overview.  It touches on modern-day paganism, including the so-called 
"neo-pagans." 

Technically, according to the American Heritage prominently displayed on my
cluttered desk, a pagan is a person who is not a Christian,Moslem, or Jew.
Originally, it meant a country dweller.
Seems to be 'hip' to be a 'pagan' now.

The distinction I've heard is that Paganism refers to pre-Christian
religions in Rome (and her empire) while areas outside the Roman
Empire may have their pre-Christian religions called Heathenism.
I usually don't hear that used to refer to religions of the Far East
(like Buddhism) and I'm not sure about Polynesian religions.

Neo-Paganism has people following most of those various non-mainstream
beliefs, including native American, various European pre-Christian, and
so on.  As for how people come to be Pagans, there are a lot of reasons.

Religion has (IMHO) two basic aspects:  a social aspect and a spiritual
aspect.  Different people value each of these things differently in
mainstream religions like Christianity, and the same applies in 
Neo-Paganism.  Some people look for the social aspects; they're probably
best served by relatively open mainstream religions like the U-U
Church.  I think most are looking for spirituality; they find that
conventional religion doesn't work for them but still look for
"something".  There are some who are raised in some flavor of Paganism,
but I think it's something one needs to discover for one's self.

Not sure I'd agree that it's "hip" to be a Pagan.  Lots of businesses
that wouldn't think twice about hiring somebody wearing a cross will
refuse to hire somebody wearing some Pagan symbols.  If you're involved
in a bitter custody fight and it comes out that you're a witch, the
court is unlikely to think it's "hip."  In most of America it's still OK
to discriminate against people with unconventional religious views.

One of the big things that has always turned me off about Christianity
is its doctrinal hypocrisy about oppression.  Christians like to
emphasize themselves as the victims of oppression, emphasizing things
like the slavery of the Hebrews, Daniel in the Lion's Den (and the brief
historic interval where Romans persecuted Christians) and the killing of
John the Baptist and Christ.  Yet Christianity has played the role of
the oppressor much more than the other way around.  That is why it is
the dominant religion that it is today.

This is not something unique to Christianity; it's similar to the views
of American pioneers who moved west to invade Indian lands, destroy
their herds, break their treaties and destroy the native American way of
life, and yet the pioneers saw themselves as the ones being oppressed
and threatened by the natives.  No doubt the church saw itself as
threatened by the vast number of witches it burned to death over the
centures.  It was wrong.

I'm not sure at what age children should make religious decisions.
I'm of the belief that unless you truly question the religion you were
brought up with, you can never truly make belief in it your own.  I
believe a lot of Christians are like that more or less out of inertia; I
doubt too many Neo-Pagans are like that.

I find holidays strange. I would rather think about an equinox, solstess
or full moon. That makes me pagan. To pick out a special day is sort
of a silly way of saying history did not happen. Pick any country and
there are many days to be aware of. Pick any religion and you find the
same. Why value one over another?

Considering most Christian holidays are basically Pagan holidays that
got co-opted (I mean, did Jesus decorate a pine tree?  Was there a
bunny handing out colored eggs in the empty tomb?) it doesn't seem to
me being a pagan necessarily means holidays undergo a radical change. :-)

I must say that I am pleased at how well mannered this conversation is going..
It always seems that when people get together and discuss religion things go
bad..This is however refreshing...

#12...True...christmas is basically the celebration of the winter solstice 
that is
is pagan in origin.  Jesus was not born in December, more likely in the
spring.  Otherwise there would have been no shepherds....sheep dont go
go out to graze in the dead of winter.  There are also few reputable 
scientists who accept creationism, because the overwhelming amount of 
scientific data indicates the world is many millions of years old and that
life on earth is an evolutionary process.  

Also if adam and eve were the first people, it would have taken many 
generations of incest to get any sort of a population.  Eve didnt have any 
daughters wso she would have had to bear the  sons of cain and abel herself!

modern pagans are for the most part disaffected christians who still desire
ritual and spiritual practice, but who are no longer able or willing to put
faith in the teachings of a religion which they feel has betrayed them by
hypocrisy. this is my own perception based on extensive experience interacting
with  numerous such people in a random, but completely unscientific manner.

I realize some have used their Christitanity to oppress others, and I don't
agree with that. But to say that Christianity in itself is used to oppress
others is simply not fair.

And as I recall, ROmans used Chrstians as candles... as in setting them on
fire to be used as lights. That is not something to be taken lightly (ooh,a
pun.. sorry).

I refer to those online as pagans as those who hhave called themselves Pagans.
I don't mean it by "those who are't chrsitians are pagans".

Aaand... some may call the Christian moral code "outdated". But consider this:
if we didn't lie, steal, have sex before marriage, cheat, speak unkindly about
each other, and covet what we don't or can't have, wouldn't life be easier
for everyone? If we loved each other as we loved ourselves... how would our
lives be? And are these values even limited to Christianity? 

My goodness!  Lighting somebody on fire just because you don't like
their religious beliefs?  Thank goodness no Christian would ever do
that.  Especially not in Salem, Massachusetts.  And thank goodness no
Christian would ever play the pot calling the kettle black.

RE #17 Marcvh, the Salem "witches" were either hanged or stoned to death, but,
contrary to popular belief, they were not burned.  (I'll bet a lot of people
are glad to hear that. NOT!)

One of the most level-headed people that I have known is a Sabaean, and claims
to have witnessed events during the seances and other ceremonies that have
no physical explanation. He claims to have gone looking for things like hidden
wires and other signs of fraud, and found none.

My understanding of the effects of the gods, as described, is that of "good
(or bad) luck" most of the time, depending on whether one has found favor or
disfavor.

The afterlife belief is in reincarnation, which I understand to be like
rolling up another character in some cosmic role playing game. Supposedly,
each person is incarnated in order to "learn" something, and after enough
lives are lived, one goes on to some more advanced existence. There are also
spirits that hang around for a while without immediately being literally born
again.

Sabaeanism does not address the origin of Humanity or the universe, and does
not prescribe or proscribe any specific behavior; though there is an axiom
about what goes around, coming around.

For my part, the reincarnation bit would be nice to actually occur - it would
make longevity research unnecessary, for one thing - but I'm not convinced
enough of its reality to bet my life on it. (And sitting around on a cloud
strumming a harp doesn't really appeal to me, let alone being tossed into a
lake of fire.) Again, this person is one of the most sensible people that I
know of; but he *is* only a Huuuu-maaaan, and thus he can be fooled.

What I want to see, one way or another, is hard, objective, reproducible
evidence.

I will respond to this item once, and only once.   I am a Volsung, and though
I am not Christain I refuse to call myself Pagan for the simple fact that
there is hidden definition in the meaning of the word suggesting that such
people AND their religions are evil.  While I will personally admit to being
evil, my religion is not.
        As said prevoisly, a lot of us are people who used to be Christain but
felt the religion betrayed us - while this is certainly true in my case, there
are a few more factors.  One of the more interesting was finding all those
nice little loopholes in the wording of the Bible alone.  Secondly, I find
it hard to think of the Judeo/Cristian Yehweh/Jehovah as either an adult or
a mature god.  I also had to attend a Fundamentalist Christian Missionary
School last year which was not fun.
        Personally, considering the Crusades, the Spanish inquistion, and other
Conversion Campaigns - and also considering that some Christains place the
Bible where their brain is supposed to be - I consider it an immature and
self-destructive religion.  Further, I see the practitioners needing to be
saved from themselves by a child god as immature
        I do not really mean to rant and rave, but if that god dares to touch
me benifficially or harmfully - he dies.  All gods can die - the rapture is
a cry for help - no worsippers = no power = no immortality.  I have Christians
who will attest to that.

Bees, when I spoke of "outdated moral code" I was speaking of a system
that put "have sex before marriage" in the same category as "lie, cheat,
and steal", as you so vividly illistrated in your last reply. 

The cathoolic church has evolved into something that is  more like a
form of government than a religion. And like all governments, it's
purpose is to control people. At some point in the past, a very smart 
someone figured out that the best way to control people was through
sex. Take humanitys most powerful and pervasive urge, and convince 
everyone that it's only proper under a very strict set of rules.
Of course, very few people are going to be able to follow those rules,
but that's ok. The goal was not to make everyone follow the rules, the
goal was to make them feel guilty when they broke the rules, as most
normal people will eventually do. And then set yourself up as the
only authority that can absolve them of that guilt, and now you quite
litterally, have them by the balls. Pretty cute system Huh?

I also condemn the hypocrisy of a system that condemns homosexuality,
and other practices, because they are "not normal", and then turns 
around and requires a vow of lifetime celibacy from all of it's clergy.
Go look up "normal" in the dictionary and then read this sentence
carefully: Lifetime celibacy is not normal.

Reponse #21 was in response to #16. I got up and walked away from the
keyboard for a couple hours and a whole bunch of people slipped in
ahead of me.

Marcvh... just as it is wrong to use christians for candles, it is also wrong
to torture witches. Both are bad bad bad. But Chrsistians wer ein fact albeled
as witches and murdred also. It wasn't about Christianity as much as power,
and disenfranchisement of the  ones who were "diffreent"-- such as women, and
the elderly.

I do NOT appreciate the slaps against Christianity I am seeing here... I don't
like anyone calling my faith (not religion, FAITH) outdated, immature, or
stupid. I started this item to ask why those who are pagans refer to
themselves aas such and why they chose to be Pagans. You can say you don't
support Christianity, and that is fine... but I am not attempting to diprove,
suvert, or tear down your beliefs.  So please have the same respect for
others. 

(not to attack anybody, since I'm pretty neutral on religion, but I find that
when people tell me that they have the right religion and I should join, I
interpret that to mean "because, of course, your current beliefs are *wrong*.
I'm not accusing anybody of doing that in this item.)

Well, I am willing to call myself Pagan, and quite proudly.  I was raised
Christian, but quite honestly I couldn't believe in it.  It was totally
male dominated- and I have a major problem with that, and the major
hypocrisy that I saw bothered me.  I worship two deities, Sekhmet and
Bast- both female Egyptian lion-headed Goddesses.  Yes I pray, I talk
to them when I feel like I need to.  I happen to use candles to help
focus my thoughts, or as a way to let them know that I'm honoring them,
as I type I have two candles burning, one for each.

There are several different 'varieties' of pagan, as has been said
several times already in this item...  I became pagan because I finally
found a religion, or at least a set of beliefs that I could follow without
worry, or second thought.  
Beeswing- you mention the ten commandment- and say wouldn't things
be wonderful if we all followed them- Pagans have something similar-
 "Do what thou will, an it harm none" and there is the three-fold
law (both of these primarily apply to Wiccans)- what you do comes back
to you three times.  Similar kinds of concepts- These two things work
to make us very aware of what we do, and theoretically should keep
us from harming others- because it will come back to us three times.
more later-

Hmmm....  That threefold law - does that mean that if I hurt someone, I will
be hurt three times in this lifetime by someone else?  Or does it mean I
should feel guilty and punish myself with three times the pain I inflicted on
someone else?  (I.e., is it a prediction of the future, or a suggestion for
how to live?)

It's sortof a prediction for the future. Goes along with the concept of
balance(but overkill). Sort of the pagan equivalent of "what goes around
comes around". :-)

Bees, it's too bad that you don't appreciate the slaps against christianity,
but you did(by your own words) ask why people choose to be pagans. And the
fact of the matter is that the great majority of them did so becuase of a
disgust with this country's major religion and it's practices.

Well, the thing is this:  if the threefold law is a prediction, that means
that every time someone hurts someone else, they'll get back three hurts
to themselves.  And for each one of those, there will be three hurts, or
nine total.  Then 27, then 81, etc. - it's exponential.  I.e., there will
be a lot of hurt in the world.

I'm not trying to make fun of anything; I'm just pointing out that if the
threefold law were a correct prediction, pretty soon people wouldn't have time
to do anything besides hurt each other.

That's numerology. Its as bad as any other irrational belief. I think that
all religions are incorrect. They are all claim "truth", but all their
truths conflict in large or small detail. The simplest explanation is that
they are all incorrect, in the large or small. They are also all human
inventions that have no verifiable predictions. This item is about people
being "pagans", but of course people that reject the whole lot are not
"pagans", they are just people that think for themselves and are not
interested in myths and mysticism. Most people of this persuasion,
incidentally, are straightforward, honest, helpful and considerate, thinking
individuals, since all of these things support rational discourse and
actions between people, which is the civilized way to behave. 

For the record, I don't think that Christianity per se is "bad" or "stupid."
I suppose there are probably some stupid people who happen to be Christians,
but that's hardly the same thing.

Christianity is a lot like America.  It has survived and grown because it has 
had few bones about expanding over the space once occupied by others and
either assimilating them or forcibly destroying them.  I live in the
West.  In order to make this land developed the way it was, native
Americans were displaced, bought off, and sometimes killed wholesale.
That's not a good thing, but it's not my fault either.

Likewise, it's not the "fault" of random modern Christians that bad
things were done in the past.  However, it is part of the heritage of
the belief system, and to deny it has significance seems questionable.

We put the Indians onto reservations and established control of the land
by kicking their asses.  We can be proud of that, or not, but it's how
it worked.  Likewise, Christianity is the dominant belief system in many
parts of the world largely because it assimilated, co-opted or destroyed
its opposing belief systems so effectively, not because it is morally
superior to them.

A group of Indian folks decided they wanted to build a Hindu place of
worship.  As they proceed through the permit and groundbreaking process,
a group of concerned Christians showed up.  They said all sorts of
doublethink type statements like "I thank God for religious liberty, but
we as members of this community are concerned about the presence of lies
which might cause people to stray from the true path of Christ."  Mind
you, expressing "concern" is better than showing up in white hoods and
burning the place down the way good Christian men would have done a
while back.

There was talk a while back about Christian moral codes.  I don't like
some of the things discussed, like the idea that murdering an innocent
victim goes in the same category as safe sex between consenting adults
who happen not to be married, but to me those aren't the essentials of
Christian moral ideas anyway.  The main idea is that everybody sins,
everybody is doomed to sin, and nobody can be perfect and not sin.
However, those sins are redeemed, through the sacrifice of Jesus, blah
blah.  That's what it's about; not how life will be nice if you don't
covet your neighbor's Chevy, but how you are imperfect but can be
saved through a personal relationship with Jesus and all that jazz.

re #28: Mark, stop thinking like a mathematician. :)  Besides, the hurts are
not necessarily man-made.  The hurts can come in the form of natural disasters
or "acts of God."

Well, ok, that would help to balance the books.  I wasn't sure if that was
an accetable punishment.

Something that's always struck me is the way celebrated non-Christians 
like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin have (privately) praised 
the teachings of Jesus as "the most perfect system of morality."  
Unfortunately, if you want to understand what they were talking about, 
you have to read what Jesus said without filtering it through 2,000 
years of Christian dogma.  Not an easy thing to do.  

You can find things to find fault with if you look for them.  In 
general, though, as gazillions of people have pointed out before me, 
Christ isn't the problem, it's the Christians.  If Christians truly 
practiced the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, they would all be, among 
other things, unfailingly kind and non-judgmental.  If they saw a 
witch being dragged to the stake, they would try to *save* her.  I 
assume no one actually wants to be a martyr for the Christian faith 
anymore, but if you do, ignore what your minister or priest says and 
try actually doing what Jesus tells you to do.  

(Btw, as someone pointed out, no one accused of witchcraft was burned 
in Salem.  All but one of them were hanged, and Giles Corey was 
pressed to death.)

I agree with rane.  I also believe that if it takes some religion that gives
people what they need, then that's fine as long as it doesn't mean harming
ohter things.  I've found that most organized religions don't meet my needs
and often strike a sour note with me.  The answers I have found for myself,
and only myself, have come through observations and all other aspects of 
life that touch on me.  It has no name and its God is mine alone for all I
care.

I am sorry to see so many people knocking christianity based not on religious
beliefs, but rather on social concerns.

Your claims of disaffection are based on, male dominence of religion, intoleran
of other religions, confrontation with leaders who violate christain ethics, 
and a dislike of the condemnation of your own personal feelings.

All I can say is you truely do not understand the true nature of christianity.

Christianity teaches...

        Love of life.
        Respect of others.
        Tolerence.
        A joy in sharing.
        Forgiveness.
        A respect of nature.
        A belief in ONE true God.

The Ten Commandments teach...

        To obey and honor God.
        To obey and honor our parents.
        TO honor our children.
        Not to Murder.
        Not to Steal.
        Not to betray our vows.
        Not to want what we cannot have.
        
And other things as well.

Unfortunately, people are not perfect.  Even the leaders of Christianity are 
human and prone to err.  This leads to aberations in the faith.

The Salem Witch trials.  
        Most, probably all of those killed were innocent of witchcraft.  Even
        if they had been witches, proof was lacking.  Even if they had proof,
        the passage used to condemn them is in the old testament.  The New
        Testament provides better methods of handling the evil among us.  Adn
        keep in minnd that what we call witchcraft today covers many seperate
        religions in  itself.  Not all of which are based on evil.

The Crusades
        Were called not based on religious conviction, so much as to enrich
        the coffers of the pope and others.  Christianity wasn't the evil 
        perpetrator of the law, Evil men claiming to be religious and using
        religion as a shield are the problem.

The Inquisition
        Falls under the same problem as the Crusades.  Evil men using the 
        religion to practice heinous crimes on the innocent.  Christianity
        does not support their beliefs or actions.


As a Christian, my religion does not allow for any other belief system.  I 
pass on Juedeism and Islam because they both believe in the same God as 
Christianity.

It is my duty as a Christian to tell you if your belief or activity is a danger
 to your soul.  It is not my duty to toss you out of society or to kill you
because I disagree with you.  If that is the Christianity you were being
taught, you needed to get out and find a true christian church.  Not a new
religion.


IF you are a follower of a Pantheistic religion, I would have to say you are
wrong.

If you are theistic, but unsure of what theistic belief you want to hold becau
you are seeking to find one that gives your own personal social beliefs a 
greater spin, then you are not giving enough respect to religion.

What Jefferson and Franklin were talking about derived from the "golden
rule", which predates Jesus. Also, one can't *read* Jesus, as nothing was
written down about his treachings until 50 years later. There isn't even
any evidence that any such person existed, except that *something*
happened that led much later to a religion. For all we know, it was a
bunch of Freemen avoiding taxes and writing bad checks, who holed up on a
ranch in Moab and dreamed up the whole thing. 

Bees, did you really mean "infidels", rather than "pagans"? The term pagan
usually implies an alternative belief more readily than infidel, which
just means non-belief (though the term was/is mostly used to refer to
non-belief of the local belief).

I find religious politics *fascinating*.  Mainly because I can't quite grasp
how religion gets political, but it does happen.  Basically it is a result
of large organizations.  Anyway, it is the large-organization problems that
turn a lot of people off, all the schisms, etc.  Very strange.

About historical religious abuses:  Crusades, Inquisitions, etc. were all
sanctioned by the church in power.  In those days, the church was a very
powerful social/political organization.  Forget being forgiven for your sins,
you could buy a license to sin from your local church (these where know as
"indulgances").  

Overall I'm pretty suspicious of churches and evangalists.  My father is a
minister, so I feel I'm not lacking much information about Christianity. 
However, the #1 assumption of people trying to win converts is that if you
just *knew*, you'd see how important their True Faith is.  But I *did* know,
and I couldn't see *why* they believed what they did.  And the most
frightening aspect is the mob psycology aspect of worship services... people
really get into it, mainly because of the group thing.  If I was a Christian,
I'd probably have a nice chat with the minister once a week or so and leave
it at that.

(scott goes off to reset his "point of view" register so that he doesn't keep
randomly changing between first and third person.)

By a remarkable coincidence, my personal faith is pretty similar to what my
brother describes in #34.  I should finish writing the essay I started on that
last week.

I don't have a very black & white attitude toward truth.  Even the belief
systems that I most love and most respect (like science), seem to me to be
incomplete and sometimes shakey.  I do see the need for faith, and respect
any faith that helps it's practicioners be better and stronger people.  I've
seen very few religions that didn't do that (exceptions include Jim Jones'
little cult).

Though I have never been a Christian, some of the Christian-bashing here kind
of bugs me.  Bottom line is that I've known many devote Christians who were
not only excellent people, but whose faith clearly played a strong and
positive role in their lives.  I can only respect it, and those who believe
in it, but I'm not one of them.

Christianity has a long, complex history and has acquired a lot of confusing
dogma from many sources.  Personally, I like my faith minimalist, dropping
anything I don't need.  I don't want to puzzle over how there can be evil in
a world created by a single good god.  I don't care to try to figure out what
exactly makes a "son of god" different than the rest of us.  I'm sorry for
the poor Christians who feel an obligation to try to explain the behavior of
all the other people in the present or in the past who called themselves by
the same name and did really nasty things.  I don't see why I should adopt
all that baggage.  I'd rather just collect the best of what I find, and boil
it down.

Christianity is so complex.  There is a dogmatic tendency to look to the
afterlife instead of this life.  I disagree with that.  I believe that while
this life lasts, we must live for this world.  The funny thing is that
Christians seem to agree with me, in actions if not in words.  There is a
strong tradition in Christianity of "good works," selfless sacrifice to help
out others in this world.  Most Christian theologians wouldn't even
acknowledge that "good works" are necessary or useful steps toward salvation
-- only your relationship to and acceptance of Christ can get you saved.
And yet, doing "good works" has been a key part of the Christian life for
many years.  It's easy to see the Religous Right as villians today, but one
should not forget the role the Christian Church played in such areas as
freeing black slaves.

I can find lots of bits of dogma in Christianity that I consider dangerous
(e.g., disregard for this world in preference for the next), and I can find
lots of people doing evil with Christianity on their tongues, I don't see
any evil in mainstream Christianity, or the behavior of mainstream Christians.
Any wide spread belief system can be, and will be, abused and misused for
selfish ends by selfish people.  It happens to Christianity, it happens to
Evolutionary Science (see "Social Darwinism"), it happens everywhere.  When
this happens it is not a condemnation of the basic belief system itself.
But still, I find it more pleasant to have a personal belief system that
strangers won't find it as easy to play games with.

If you are a follower of a Theistic religion, bru, I would have to say you
are wrong. So, there we are, except that I claim that I have all the
evidence on my side, while you have nothing but stories on your's. It is
not my duty to tell you that your belief or activity is a danger to your
open-mindedness and tolerance, but I think that. (This is said without
malice or spite.)

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss