Is there any interest in discussing tropical fish?  This item is to 
find out.

41 responses total.

This response has been erased.

I've gotten back into tropical fish this year.  I bought two fish 
tanks, 55 and 50 gallons, which mount on the same metal stand.  I've 
populated the 55 gallon with community fish such as angelfish, neon 
tetras, glowlight tetras, platys, and currently a half-dozen 
plecostomus catfish.

My tank has an underground filter, and recently I've added an outside 
power filter.  It's had decorations of plastic plants (which I prefer, 
they don't carry snails, and snails can be a plague in a fish tank) as 
well as rocks from the Great Lakes.

At some point I will put fish in the other tank as well.  My son is 
interested in Oscars, and a 50 gallon tank ought to be big enough for a 
half-dozen Oscars to attain breeding size in a year or two.

I've had various troubles, most recently including a severe recurring 
problem with floating algae.  I've been advised (as of yesterday) to 
change part of the water weekly.  I'm going to try that for a while and 
see if it helps.  With so many plecosomuses (plecostomi?) I don't want 
to use chemicals.  The plecos are very hardy, but they have to eat, and 
what they eat is algae.

re #1: Yes, if a f-w is around, and would link this to pets, I would 
appreciate it very much!

This response has been erased.

I sent an e-mail.

I've toured the pet shops in the Ann Arbor area pretty well, and here 
are some of my impressions of them:

Pet Supplies Plus -- I work at Domino Farms, so they're the most 
convenient for me.  Sometimes it's hard to get help with fish-related 
issues, even such things as buying fish.  They have an enormous 
selection of accessories, with pretty good prices, and I've bought most 
of my stuff from them.  I ordered some black marble hatchetfish from 
them, and they got them in for me.

Coral Reef -- also on Plymouth Rd.  This place is exclusively salt 
water fish, which aren't my thing.

The Fish Doctor -- Washtenaw Ave in Ypsi -- the staff didn't seem to 
care if I was there or not, when I was there in February.  The place 
didn't seem very impressive to me.  I should go back.  They did seem to 
be knowledgeable.

Huron Pet Supply -- Washtenaw Ave, Ypsi -- I also went there in 
February.  I'm not sure why I haven't been back.  They seemed all right.

Hmm, looking through the ads in the phone book, there are several 
others I haven't been to.

Meijers, K-Mart and Walmart all carry fish.  I would never buy fish 
from a place like that.  They just don't have any time to take care of 
them, or any interest in learning about them.

Another thing that turns me off immediately is seeing dead fish in more 
than one tank.  Fish do die, and pet shops are a hazardous environment 
for them.  There's always lots of turnover (meaning lots of potential 
new diseases coming in), and kids tapping on the glass and sticking 
their fingers in the water, and the staff constantly chasing the fish 
around with nets.  When you put a new fish in your tank, you're taking 
something of a risk, no matter where you get the fish.  But dang... 
those fish are on *display*, and if the staff doesn't care enough to 
get rid of the dead ones, I don't care to buy their stock.

The dead fish can tell you more. Some diseases have obvious symptoms,
like the dreaded ik. 

Jep, I'd remove all the rocks you've added to your problem tank if they
were found in lakes or streams.  For a while use only rock bagged for
aquarium use and see if that makes a difference. 

Why is that, Mary? You can sterilize rocks with Clorox, if that is what
you are concerned about. However you should avoid *soluble* rocks, which
include gypsum and limestone and dolomite. These increase the hardness
of the water, which may not be good, unless you change water frequently.

It's been a long time since I had a tropical fish tank but the
reason had something to do with minerals leaching out of the
rocks and changing the water quality to something not suitable
for tropical fish.  Quartz was okay.  Limestone was not.  Coral
(dead) was also a no-no.

Coral is chemically the same as limestone, so it is also soluble. 
Gypsum is the most soluble, but just increases the hardness. Calcite
(limestone, coral, sea shells, etc) also neatralize acidity, which
may be detrimental for some fish that prefer water on the acid side,
or encourage fungus. Granite and other plutonic rocks should be
OK (granite, gneiss, diorite, biotite, feldspar, etc). 

My rocks that I added first are all hard rocks from Lake Huron.  I 
don't know that much about rocks, but these are all smooth and well-
rounded, and generally look like granite.  I no longer think they 
caused any problems, since I removed them about a month ago and the 
problems continued.

I've left some sandstone in the tank which I acquired a couple of 
months ago.

I also removed all my plastic plants, but that didn't seem to have any 
effect either.  I'm likely going to add both the hard rocks and plants 
back in.

The woman at the place in Saline spoke of nitrates being a contributing 
factor for algae.  I should have asked her -- but what causes 
nitrates?  Overfeeding?  Fish excrement?  It's got to be coming from 
somewhere.  I don't think I've been overfeeding my fish.

The woman told me that undergravel filters are an okay supplement, but 
you really need an outside filter.  She also advised me to vacuum the 
gravel with a siphon, which I did last night.  I got a lot of muck out 
of my gravel last night.  Maybe I have been overfeeding them at times.

I was surprised when she told me the UG filters are a thing of the 
past.  I first got into fish in the 1970's, when they were the hot new 
thing, sworn by by all the most experienced tropical fish nuts.  (My 
family was in a fish club when I was a teenager.  We were really into 
fish for a couple of years.)  She told me the store in Saline doesn't 
even stock them any more.  Oh, well.  I have an external filter now.

I forgot to mention, both Pet Supplies Plus and the place in Saline 
offered to test my water for free if the problem continues, for such 
things as PH and impurities.  Just take a small jar of water in to 
them.  The woman in Saline said she doesn't recommend most people 
change the PH of their water, since that usually upsets the fish more 
than a bad balance.

Nitrates come from fish piss. This contains ammonia compounds, which
are exidized by bacteria to nitrates.

"exidized" ?  Does that mean "processed in such a way as to remove the 
hydrogen"?

Perhaps this is an obscure reference to the long defunct Exidy computer
company.

Neither. Check out ORP at http://www.plumbing-info.com/faqdet.asp?fldvalue=
62

See? All you have to do is run a word you don't know through Google....

I have a small 15 gallon "cube" aquarium (take a 15L, stand it vertically,
and you'd have a good idea of what it looks like) with an underground filter
with a PowerHead 20 on the tube, a Tetra DeepWater quad pump (for a bubble
wand), cheap Meijer glass gravel, and a blue Arizona Ginseng Tea bottle
(washed with labels removed). 

At one time, I had about 14 fish in there. I found that most of the fish I
bought from Pet Supplies Plus died quickly, or gave the other fish "ick". And
when I moved from Farmington Hills to South Lyon, many of the fish didn't
survive. 

Right now, I have three fish: a pleco, knife fish, and paradise gourami. All
of them were purchased from PetSmart in 1998. There was also a sunset platty
from the same group, but it died last month. This leads me to two conclusions:
PetSmart (at least, in Northville) sells amazingly healthy fish, and I'm one
of the best fishkeepers alive ;)

I would add more to the tank, but I'm afraid of introducing diseases to dish
so old. I'm genuinely curious to see just how long they'll live.

As far as maintenance, I siphon 2/3 of the water every 6 months with a gravel
cleaner, and replace it with cold tap water that has reached room temperature.
I have a heater, but it isn't plugged in. I generally keep the house around
75 degrees year-round, and the tank temperature is pretty close to that. I
think the PowerHead may radiate just enough heat to make the water nice for
the fish.

Every now and then, the water will get a little brown. When that happens, I
use Acurel*F, which makes it even browner for a couple hours, then magically
turns the water crystal clear. (Acurel*F is imported from Britain, but most
pet stores that sell fish seem to have it. It beats the pants off of every
similar product I've tried. If your water isn't clear, you should spend the
$5, and buy some.)

Other than that, I don't put any other chemicals in the water, unless the fish
are sick and need medicine. I test the pH every now and then, and it usually
comes up a bit acidic, but not dangerously so. The only time I've actually
altered the pH was when I moved the tank to South Lyon. Since then, it seems
to have balanced. (Probably because the water pipes hadn't seen "normal" usage
in a couple months when I moved in.)

I noticed someone up there mentioned Fish Doctor, and was unhappy with the
service. I've found that the one in Ann Arbor (Ypsi?) tends to cater to people
with massive tanks, who need someone to come out and perform maintenance on
a regular schedule. We had the Fish Doctor come out to Beyond Interactive
every other month, or so...and it wasn't cheap. Presumably, they have several
clients who are similar, and don't need the $100 you'd spend to set up a 20
gallon tank of $3 fish. 

That said, the Fish Doctor location in Plymouth has employees who are much
more customer-oriented, and willing to help. If I were setting up a saltwater
tank, that's probably the only store I'd go to. Their knowledge is amazing,
and their fish always look healthy and well taken care of. 

Other than that, I'd check out PetSmart on Haggerty and 6 Mile in Northville.
(If you take M-14 to I-275, it's the first exit, about 1/4 mile left) They
have a great selection (compared to the Ann Arbor location) and like I said
above, they sell very healthy fish. 

The stuff that cleared my algae problem is called AlgaeFix.  I haven't 
noticed any bad effects on the fish.  This product has made me a fan 
for life.

I figure if the fish survive a week, anything that happens isn't the 
fish store's fault.  An exception would be, if I add some new fish and 
don't change anything else, and all the fish in my tank die a week or 
two later, that would definitely cause me to not go back to that store.

So far, most of my fish have survived for at least a week, and there's 
been no general plague that I could trace to a fish store problem.  I 
like Pet Supplies Plus.  I don't think most of the employees really 
know fish, but then, my fish are not difficult ones to keep.

I have a 2nd tank, a 50 gallon one on the same stand as my 55 gallon 
tank.  I intend at some point to get Oscars for that tank.  Oscars are 
highly aggressive.  They're cichlids, like angelfish, but much more 
aggressive.  They get to be about a foot long.  I don't know if they'd 
get that big in a 50 gallon tank, though.

I e-mailed the fw's of "pets" to ask for a link for this item, but got 
no response.  That was weeks ago.  I've now entered item #50 in pets to 
start a new discussion about tropical fish.

<blinks> I knew there was something I was forgetting to do. Sorry about 
that John. 

Heh.  Not a biggie.

Heh, I'll take care of it now.

Thanks!  This is now item #51 in pets.

Besides, cats LIKE fish <here kitty, kitty....>

<is amused by rane's pomposity...how did he not notice he misspelled 
 "oxidized"?>

You missed my misspelling of neutralized in another response. Why don't
you pay attention?

Well, generally it's not worth my time to read your long-winded responses.
I noticed "oxidized" because others rightly made fun of it, at which you
continued to act pompous, in a rare short-winded response.  Brevity...
yada yada yada.

I've thought my responses have been terse and informative. Please tell me
how I could convey the same information in fewer words.

hand gestures!

I very much appreciated Rane's information about nitrates.  It was just 
what I needed to know.

I have a 10 gallon filtered tank with a single Betta. I also 
have two plants and some trumpet snails (accidental).

Anyways, I check the ammonia levels daily; it stays below the
lowest detectable ammount (>.25 ppm mg/L). The -NO2 and -NO3
levels are below detection as well..

So my question is, are my plants soaking up all the -NO3's?
Does this mean that I don't have to do anything other than top
off the water level as long as the -NO3's stay below detection?

The rate of generation of ammonia with one fish being fed is of course
smaller than with many fish, and such a large tank (for one fish) 
provides both a large volume for bacterial conversion of the ammonia, as
well as degassing of the ammonia from the larger surface (and the
consumption of ammonia by the plant). So I would say that the answer is
"yes". I do suggest topping up the water level with distilled water to
prevent an indefinite increase in the hardness of the water. 

I just added two clown loaches (to help rid my tank of snails) 
in addition to the original betta I had. The betta is kinda aloof
and ignores the other fish but will sometimes trys to steal the 
sinking wafers I feed the loaches.

I also added a small flower pot, but I think I may get one more. 
I tried to cut a small opening on the lip of one of the pots, so 
I could flip it upside down for them to use as a hiding place 
(kinda like Spongebob's pineapple house), but it broke, because I
was using the hammer and chisel method....next time i'm gonna use 
my dremel.

I cracked the second flower pot....I guess i'm gonna have to pick some more
up at Franks before they run out.

I'm thinking I should have started out with a 20-30 gal long tank instead of
this wimpy 10 gal tank. My clown loaches can swim from one end to the other
in no time flat. I think i'll get a 30 gal once I know for sure if i'm staying
at this apartment or moving to a house this summer.

heres my tank: http://members.thegeekgroup.org/~eprom/LJ/fishy.jpg

It's nice. I never could keep a tank. 

thanks...i'm hoping that if I only keep a few fish in there, I won't have many
problems.

That is a smart plan. I once killed a poor betta in a 10 gallon tank.
That is when I decided that I just didn't have what it takes to keep fish. 

I think I starved it. I need pets that can tell me when they are hungry
in obnoxious ways that I cant ignore (one of my dogs flings her dish
across the kitchen floor for instance). 

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