OK, here is the start of the discussion about "alternative
 schools" that I started by announcing the fact that both of
 my children are in such schools this year.
 
    Part of me thought that it should have been an item to
 start with, but then again I thought that my head was swelling
 up and thinking thoughts about self-importance.  Oh well.
 
   So read this, and let us continue on...  (these are the
 relavant exerpts from item #2; about 345 lines of text)
 
 
 
 
 #343 of 372: by STeve Andre' (steve) on Mon, Aug 28, 1995 (22:24):
      (I don't usually enter things into this item.  But when I do
  I tend to run off at the mouth.  You've been warned.)
  
     I would like to announce that Both our kids, Damon (dea) and
  Staci (sea) are going to "alternative" schools in Ann Arbor now.
  
     For those of you who don't live near Ann Arbor, a little history.
  This town has offered "alternative" education outlets in the public
  schools for about 25 years now.  The now defunct Earthworks school
  started around 1970 or so, and Community High School in 1972.  Back
  in those early days it wasn't clear that such schools would survive.
  I attended CHS and graduated in 1975, and it changed my life
  completely, giving me access to computers at the UM while I was a
  senior, and the rest they say, is history...
  
     Back in 1974 enrollment at CHS was pretty low--there were
  bands of students making the school tour circuit, basically
  pleading with other students to join aboard.  Over time, the
  popularity of CHS grew, to the point that finally, more students
  wanted to attend than could.
  
     There is now an alternative elementary called Bach open
  school, and a middle school called Middle Years Alternative,
  and both are just as popular as CHS is.  In fact, there have
  been fights, law suits and other unpleasant things that have
  occured between competing parents for slots in these schools.
  
     This March 2nd, I entered into an all-night waiting-in-line
  session at MYA in the attempt to get my son there.  We were
  told not to show up for the line-waiting until 3:00PM; I
  obeyed that, and paid the price for it--others got there
  before 3PM, and I found out that I was 8th in line.  Still,
  I stayed up all night with the other parents, and when 6:30AM
  rolled around, we sleepily wandered over to the MYA main office
  (just across from where we were sleeping) and got our applications
  timestamped.
  
     The school board here has an interesting policy with regard
  to admissions.  Rather than having a fair, completely random lottery
  to determine who gets in, they take applications starting at a
  date and time, on a first come first in line basis.  They then
  look at the number of openings at MYA (56 for the 6th grade),
  subtract the number of slots that are given to the children of
  Bach open school (the kiddies are automatically grandfathered
  into the next higher school), and then arrive at a number of
  free open slots.  This year there were six.  *six students
  in all of Ann Arbor could get into MYA this year*.  These
  six slots were then divided into two sets of three.  The
  first three people in line got their kids into MYA.  The
  remaining of us (I will estimate 80, but is probably more)
  were put in a lottery for the remaining three slots.  Damon
  was not in that group either, so he got on the waiting
  list.  They're very good about keeping these lists, forunately,
  and a person at MYA by the name of Clair Johnson was never
  unwilling to look up in the master records and tell me
  where Damon was in the wait queue.  When Damon advanced
  from #5 to #4 we had a little party.  Over time, Damon
  crawled up to #2 on the queue, and then summer hit.  There
  was a period of two months where we had no idea if Damon
  had advanced or not.  Finally, on August 18th, I called
  MYA yet again and found out that he'd advanced to the
  front of the queue, and only one more child remained
  to call in that they wouldn't be attending MYA, and
  my son would be in.  Evil thoughts crossed my mind
  from time to time ("Here little child: take a look at
  this thing called a cistern--*SPLASH*").
  
     However, the magical call finally came, and last Thursday
  we found out that Damon was in!  HE WAS IN!  After dancing
  around in the Dungeon when I heard this (Glenda had called
  me over the radio with this news), I remember that siblings
  of kids in alternative schools (except for CHS) get priority
  for open slots.  Staci would be going into the 3rd grade.
  ....Was it possible, I wondered, after beating all the odds
  for Damon that I might get Staci into Bach?  Heart in mouth
  I called Bach  on Friday, and got ahold of an administrator
  there who listened to me.  I heard her rustle papers, looking
  at the lists for third graders.  I heard silence.  I heard her
  thinking.  Finally she said, "I think I have a slot for
  her".  After my heart rate went back down, I asked if I
  could slither over and sign the papers right then; she
  said no, not really, as she should have left an hour
  earlier, but come in at 9AM Monday and we could do it
  then.
  
     I didn't sleep well Sunday night.  Glenda can probably
  attest to that.  When I finally got there and found the
  person I'd talked to on Friday, she said that my son
  would have to be on a waiting list, as there wasn't
  a free slot for him.  Son?  Staci didn't look like a
  son.  I told her I thought Staci was female.  Her eyes
  lit up and she said "Oh, well in that case, I have a
  space for her".  I guess they practice sex balancing
  at Bach.  But, whatever the details of their admission
  algorithms are, Staci got in!  Because she doesn't
  posses certain things they let her in!
  
     I walked out of the school this morning in something
  of a daze.  In the space of less than 96 hours we went
  from not knowing if Damon could get into MYA, to getting
  *both* in.
  
     *I AM ONE HAPPY PARENT*
  
     I am still one PISSED OFF parent that the Ann Arbor School
  board has consistently come up with reasons to figure out
  ways to deny the creation of schools that are in demand.
  Now that I've navigated this crazy shit, and come out of it
  winning, I think I want to get involved and change this.
  I went through the Ann Arbor school system and suffered.
  More choices are needed here.
 
 
 
 #345 of 372: by Steve Gibbard (scg) on Mon, Aug 28, 1995 (22:41):
  Congrats to Damon and Staci!  I agree with STeve; Ann Arbor desperately needs
  more alternative schools.  Ann Arbor also really needs to do something about
  the situation where people are willing to camp out for days to avoid Ann
  Arbor's "traditional" schools.  I also think it's rediculous to say that out
  of the number of spaces available at MYA, only six were available to people
  who hadn't gone to Bach, and I'm glad to say that Community doesn't have a
  policy like that.  Community has a bad waiting list problem, but due in large
  part to student and teacher protests my Freshman year when a bunch of MYA
  people were lobbying for priority, at least Community puts everybody through
  the same hell to get in, regardless of what school they went to before.
  
  This should probably go in its own item in aaypsi.
 
 
 
 #346 of 372: by Mary Remmers (chelsea) on Mon, Aug 28, 1995 (22:49):
  STeve slipped in with his announcement.  Congratulations!
  As a parent of a now graduated CHS student I understand your
  elation.  This is wonderful news.
 
 #347 of 372: by HAL 9000 ran amok on Windoze 95 (omni) on Tue, Aug 29, 1995
 (00:11):
    Congrats, Steve.
  .\
 
 
 
 #348 of 372: by Mark A. Conger (aruba) on Tue, Aug 29, 1995 (02:25):
  Congratulations, STeve and Glenda and Damon and Staci!
 
 
 
 #350 of 372: by igor von heiniken (iggy) on Tue, Aug 29, 1995 (10:00):
  if i had a kid, i'd want the child to go to an alternative school.
  way to go STeve!
  <see, i was so happy for you that i actually used the shift-key>
 
 
 
 #352 of 372: by Sarah O'Connor (birdlady) on Tue, Aug 29, 1995 (11:02):
  Rane...did you stop and see anybody on your way through Gaylord?  (Where the
  45th parallel is).
  
  Steve...congratulations!!!!  I'm really happy for you and your kids.  What
  exactly *is* an alternative school, though?  I mean, how is their program
  different from other schools?
  
  Chelsea...sorry about the textbook remark.  I was just *extremely happy* that
  I didn't have to sell an arm this year.  ;)
 
 
 
 #353 of 372: by Andrew J. Lanagan (drew) on Tue, Aug 29, 1995 (11:58):
  Congrats to STeve and glenda. I can't help but ask, though, how much do the
  kids themselves care about whether they got in? Are they aware of the
  difference?
 
 
 
 #354 of 372: by TS Taylor (tsty) on Tue, Aug 29, 1995 (12:20):
    
        C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S !!!!
    
        Staci,
        Damon,
        Glenda,
        STeve.                                                  <phew!>
 
    
 
 #357 of 372: by STeve Andre' (steve) on Tue, Aug 29, 1995 (17:44):
     Thanks all.  No, Staci doesn't really appreciate what she is in for,
  because she's too little to understand.  Damon does, however, since he
  had a really bad year at Dicken, where his teacher made fun of him a
  couple of times, when he said things that she either didn't understand
  (talking about quarks) or wouldn't believe (a recounting of the former
  slave Charlie, who in an interview talked about his being fed pancakes
  by white peole was was told that they grew on trees in America).  So
  he appreciates the difference between MYA and what he's already been
  through.
  
     "Alternative" schoolc in Ann Arbor are less focused on things
  like grade seperation between studetns, have generally less uptight
  teachers, and are a generally more freindly atmosphere in which to
  do things.  As an example at Bach (the elementary) there are impromptu
  walks around the neighborhood during the fall.
  
     Children growing up in such schools typically do less well in
  traditional academic testings at first, but then typically jump
  far ahead of their peers as they get older (5th grade and on).
  If you're interested in reading something that goes against the
  grain of what we consider schools, the book "Summerhill" about the
  original school of that name in England is a fun place to start.
 
 
 
 #359 of 372: by M. T. Anslin (mta) on Wed, Aug 30, 1995 (01:51):
  Drew,  you asked
        Congrats to STeve and glenda. I can't help but ask, though, how much
  do the
   kids themselves care about whether they got in? Are they aware of the
   difference?
  
  In my opinion, most kids are too young/inexperienced to really understand the
  differences between schools until almost high school.  Given a chance, the
  average middle grader will prefer the school that requires less 'work'.
  We, as adults have to make informed decisions on their behalf.  That's what
  parents are for, after all.
 
 
 
 #360 of 372: by . (n8nxf) on Wed, Aug 30, 1995 (08:00):
  There has always been a high demand for "alternative" schools in Ann Arbor. 
  The schools system, however, has been unable to meet the demand for years. 
  Then the residents of the city vote down schools of choice.  Go figure.
 
 
 
 #362 of 372: by Valerie Mates (popcorn) on Wed, Aug 30, 1995 (09:07):
  Congrats to all the open-school Andres!
 
 
 
 #363 of 372: by Autolycus (rogue) on Wed, Aug 30, 1995 (10:12):
  #357: I would be careful of the cause-and-effect you are suggesting. It is
        entirely possible that children in "alternative" schools do better
        academically because their parents are involved with the education
        of their children. (I'm not trying to piss on your parade or 
        anything because you seem like an involved parent and you win either
        way -- I am just suggesting that parental involvement could be more
        important than the perceived or real difference in quality because
        "alternative" schools and traditional schools.) 
  
        By the way, I really don't like the "alternative" label. I didn't like
        it when it was used to refer to music and I don't like it when it is
        used to refer to schools.
 
 
 
 #364 of 372: by Rane Curl (rcurl) on Wed, Aug 30, 1995 (12:54):
  I tend to support rogue on this. Our daughter is in the regular AA school
  system, and appears to be thriving. I see no reason at all for an
  "alternative" school for her - in fact, the term is suspiciously like a
  euphemism for something not particularly comprehensive. I see no
  particular educational advantages in it, since one can find "enrichment"
  in real life just as well. I am not, of course, saying "alternative"
  schools are poorer, either: just that it really doesn't matter, but if one
  makes you happier than another, why not? 
 
  
 
 #365 of 372: by Mary Remmers (chelsea) on Wed, Aug 30, 1995 (15:37):
  Not every child thrives in the one-size-fits-all style of school. A lot of
  kids do, thankfully, but there are those who need a different approach,
  whether that be simply more accepting of differences, something smaller in
  scale, something less focused and instead multi-disciplinary.  Not all
  kids learn best the same way. 
  
  But the problem this city has faced is that if parents don't think their
  kids need (or would be able to get into) an alternative school then they
  pronounce such projects as unnecessary and a waste of money and vote for
  School Board members pandering to such fears and jealousies. Even
  when it is clearly shown how opening an alternative school would not
  mean a decreased services for existing programs and may, in fact, even
  improve traditional programs.
  
  It's voter selfishness and ignorance.  And politics.
  
 
 #366 of 372: by Christopher L. Goosman (goose) on Wed, Aug 30, 1995 (22:44):
  Why don't we try fixing what's "wrong" with the other schools, instead
  of building more schools, alternative or otherwise.
  
  I'm also with rogue and rcurl(?) on this.  FWIW, I come from a small
  town with no alternative schools.
 
 
 
 #368 of 372: by Steve Gibbard (scg) on Thu, Aug 31, 1995 (01:31):
  While I'm sure that "alternative" schools aren't for everybody, I'm also very
  confinced that Community High was a better place for me than Pioneer would
  have been.  I've never done very well in the "do it because I said so" type
  of environment that Pioneer generally is, and there were also lots of
  educational programs that helped me a lot that I simply would not have been
  able to do in a more "traditional" environment.  The two "classes" I think
  I learned the most in in high school were covering the school board for
  Community's school newspaper and teaching a class at Webber Middle School in
  Detroit.  I could have gone to all the school board meetings and written
  about them going to Pioneer, but I wouldn't have gotten credit for it.  I
  certainly couldn't have decided to spend every Friday afternoon for a year
  and a half in Detroit going to Pioneer.

 
 
 #369 of 372: by Steve Weiss (srw) on Thu, Aug 31, 1995 (01:37):
  I agree with rogue and rcurl and goose. I am happy that the Andres
  got into the school they chose to prefer, but I think there are other things
  going on that don't meet the eye when measuring performance of kids 
  who go through alternative versus regular schools. 
  
  Yes, I agree that they teach things differently, and that this is better 
  for some kids (and worse for others), but I think there is a difference in
  the  perceived quality of the teaching, and that is the main reason that the 
  alternatives are so popular in Ann Arbor. If the teachers at the alternative
  schools actually are better than those in the regular schools, there is a 
  lack of fairness that is driving this. 

  The regular schools are getting a raw deal if this is so.
 
 
 
 #370 of 372: by Katie Geddes (katie) on Thu, Aug 31, 1995 (08:23):
  This is a great discussion. How about making its own item?
 
 
 
 #371 of 372: by Colleen Marie Fury (giry) on Thu, Aug 31, 1995 (10:08):
  "here here"
 
 
 
 #372 of 372: by Autolycus (rogue) on Thu, Aug 31, 1995 (14:11):
  I simply don't buy the "alternative" is better argument. In high school, the
  "cool crowd" thought "alternative music" is better. I asked them why and
  the answer essentially was, "Because less people listen to it and because
  we listen to it we're cool." I'm getting a feeling that the "alternative
  school" is better argument runs along the same lines.
  
  BTW, I went to what could be called an "alternative school" in Toronto 
  with special arts, music, academic and other programs. I was in the
  academic program and I thought it was a great program. However, it is
  definitely not for everyone and not everyone would have come out better.

119 responses total.

   I don't see the resistence towards the concept of "alternative
schools" (I don't like that phrase either).
   Everyone is different.  People like differences.  If that wern't
the case, then people would flock to the same restauraunts for
example.  Yet we have hundreds of thousands of different places
to eat in the world.

   And so it is with education.  The very concept of "one school
model for all" means that some are going to be left out, those
who aren't unteachable, but rather those that need things brought
out to them in a different way.

   I am a perfect example of this.  I am usually very visual,
and if given enough examples on something will usually grasp
onto whatever I need to learn about.

   Let me tell you about something that still haunts me.

   Math.

   Because the Ann Arbor school system was very rigid in it's
teashing methods of math in the 60's (I did time from 1963
to 1975), the only way to differienciate students was the
system called "tracking".  There were usually three tracks
of math in elementary and junior high school.  The biggest
track was the middle of course, where probably 60% of the
students went.  The upper track was smaller at around 30%,
which left the lower track at about 10%.

   I was consistently in the lower track, but did fantastically
well, often going an entire semester with making a single
error on anything I did.  I mean that litterally.  Because
there were usually fewer students in this class, I got the
extra attention I needed, and once I had a single session
with the teacher over a concept, I got it.  It always amazed
the teachers--Steve, who doesn't do well, so he's here in
this class, doens't need help, they'd say.

   And so it went each year.  A couple of times I'd get
bumped up to the normal track, but because I couldn't
get the things like the others, I'd do horribly, and
would slide down again.  This happened several times.

  Things came to something of a head when the low-track
teacher discovered that I was attempting to read and
figure out something called field theory, which I was
interested in, at it relates to how electro-magnetic
forces leaves antennas.  This was in the 5th grade.  I'd
discovered radios (just listening to shortwave at that
point), and learned some someone at a radio store about
this thing called field theory.  Now, it was completely
beyond me, but in talking with some friends parents, I
got a little of the ideas presented, and tried doing a
little more on my own.  When the low-track teacher saw
what I was doing, she didn't comprehend what I was doing,
nor what I was trying to read.  She admitted this.  *But
she also said that I shouldn't be doing it*.

  It violated the order of things, my going off on my
own, on what would be a nearly useless chase for
something, but which nevertheless gave me ideas about
things.   And I had thought even then that that was part
of the idea about what education was.

  I eventually did learn the math that most people
know, and more, but it wasn't the Ann Arbor School
system that taught me.  It was in fact despite of
them that I know any math at all.  It was only because
I realized that math was the way to express electrical
concepts that I delved into it at all.  My education
in this respect is spotty as well, having no one but
myself as a teacher.

   There were other subjects in which the Ann Arbor
school system blitzkrieged me, like reading.  I did
not read my first real book until I was at the end
of the 4th grade, a fantasy book about a shy dinosaur.
But by the middle of the 5th grade, I was reading
_Murder in the Cathedral_ by TS Elliot.  My 5th
grade teacher expressed displeasure with my reading
such a book.  She thought it was beyond me.  In
retrospect I believe it was beyond her.

  So I can honestly say that the Ann Arbor school
system taught me nothing *and I mean nothing* about
academics.  They didn't teach me to read; comic
books and my mother did.  They didn't teach me
math, not really (I'd taken to reading the upper
track math book of a friend of mine who lived two
doors up from me, and who would explain things to
me).  I didn't learn anything about English, because
for the first four grades I couldn't read, and 
attempting to teach someone who can't read is much
akin to trying to teach a butterfly calculus.
Later on, in the 8th grade, we had one semester of
how to deal with the structure of English.  The
author of the book was the teacher, a very old
man even then, who didn't explain anything.  I
did fairly well there solely because once I saw
an example of something I could synthesize more
myself, and he loved the writings I did.  But
never, not for one minute did I understand *how*
to parse a sentence.  I remember the terms Subject
and Kernel of a sentence, but if you threatened to
blow Staci's brains out if I didn't show you how
they connected, I would fail.  I think I can write in
at least a reasonable fashion, but I cannot tell
you anything about how language is structured.

  What I did learn in the Ann Arbor school systems
wern't academic: I loved the theater; I always did
but that was the first time I could actually be
a part of the technical side, or performing.  The
teacher, a "Ms. Stolarefsky" was *feared* by many
as a real hard-ass, but I loved her--she didn't
suffer fools gladly, but was willing to explain
anything in the theatrical world to anyone who
was willing to listen.   The metal shop classes
I took had a profound impact on me, as I had
grown up without my father.  Those classes were
the first exposure to "man" things that I'd
ever had.  Learning about the internal combustion
engine was really something.  Lastly, in the 8th
grade I had a wonder English teacher, who taught
english in a way that I'd never seen before.  We
talked and discussed the books we read; it was
wonderful.  It didn't teach me anything new,
except talking to an actual adult which almost
no other teacher did up to that point.

  Looking back on my years in this school system
I can recall only eight teachers that were worth
their salaries.  I suffered in school.  I really
did.  I saw people who loved the system, and a few
others like me who jsut did not fit in.  I am
quite sure that the school system at it currently
is works wonderfully well with the majority of
children, but not all of them!

  So why adopt an educational system that demands
one style of teaching, which implies one form of
learning?  It's pointless, unless you want to take
the easy way out and standardize everything.  But
however well you do with the mainstream, the edges
are still rough.

I, too, had problems with the Ann Arbor schools' idea of what is 
"normal" and "right" for an education.  I kept trying to take classes
that I hadn't taken the "prerequisites" for.  The fact that these 
prerequisites were half review of the previous course, and half watered-
down new stuff, didn't seem to occur to them.  Fortunately for me, I
was strong-willed enough to get into the classes I wanted, and didn't 
waste *too* much of my high school career, although I do wish I had it to 
do again.  

Congrats again to STeve on having a middle school aged kid who *does*
appreciate what he's in for. This in itself is a good sign, whether he had
gotten into MYA or not.

My school experiences were (a) a Catholic parochial school, and (b) the public
schools of Grosse Ile. (a) was basically your ordinary one-mold-fits-all
school with excessive God and "discipline" thrown in. The students probably
were marginally better educated than average, though this was hardly worth
the BS. (b) was a standard public school, but I lucked out in having a dozen
or so quality teachers.

My observation is that, to a very large extent, the teachers *are* the school.
They make all the difference. I have personally witnessed this difference,
with the *same* students, studying the *same* subject, with different
teachers. The piss-poor ones, those that no one could ever understand, had
classes that were uncontrolled, full of distraction, and everyone thinking
it was a joke. (Which may not have been far from the truth.) Install a
different teacher, a good one, and the class was orderly and quiet and
everyone got it (or at least I did). And "discipline" had nothing to do with
it, either. It had to do with how well the teacher could hold the attention
of the class.

   Thanks Drew.  You're right too, about the teachers making the
school.

I suppose I went to an "alternative" school myself. There are two
public high schools in New York that (at that time) required an
entrance examination, and I got into Brooklyn Technical High (my
brother made it into the other one, Stuyvesant). I don't recall
particular good or bad experiences in elementary school, but we had
very supportive parents - I was doing organic synthesis at home, and
my brother was doing microtome slide preps, before we got into high
school (of course, they had to put up with formaldehyde, and a few
little *pops*, now and then). Brooklyn Tech was where I really
started to love learning. It was probably as much the collection of
all the motivated students as much as the teachers and teaching
environment (our physics teacher had some personal problems and
disappeared...another student and I took over and continued the class
until a substitute was found). By the way, my elementary school
teachers (as I recall) did tell me that I'd never get into Brooklyn
Tech, so why bother applying....(and my parents wanted me to go to
Stuyvesant too), so I had to take it upon myself to overcome some
hurdles.

I'm a little mystified by the argument that "alternative" schools take away
from the other schools.  While I agree that there are problems at the
mainstream schools, and that these problems need to be fixed, this can be done
while still allowing the alternative schools to flourish.  The different types
of schools can learn a lot from eachother, and complement eachother nicely,
if they're willing to.  However, when we have the Pioneer PTSO President
showing up at the school board complaining about anti-Pioneer disccrimination
at the suggestion that Community be allowed to have anywhere near the level
of per student funding that Pioneer and Huron get, we have a problem.

  I seem to recall a further admissions subrule not covered in
STeve's description, whereby siblings of students already enrolled
in alternative schools are given precedence over other children.
Is that accurate?

   Yes, but it isn't quite clear to me how it works.

   I was under the imperssion that once Damon was in at MYA, Staci
would have preference for being able to get on the waiting list at
Bach.  Talking to the principal at Bach, I found out that they
interpreted this as "once a child had been in an alternative school
for a year, *then* siblings can get on the preferencial waiting list".

   So I'm not sure what the rule really is.

This response has been erased.

I've personally always thought that the first step to a decent public 
education system was to make teaching a more appealing prospect to talented
people.  The low salaries and terrible time most teacher seem to have 
drives talented people away from teaching positions where they would do 
a lot of good.  

I was inspired, while going to Brooklyn Tech, to consider becoming a
teacher there - it seemed so exciting and fullfilling. However I went
to a university and became an engineer, and by then the choice of doing
something *as an engineer*, with a graduate engineering degree, versus
teaching high school, was not a choice at all. However, here I am now
in teaching anyway, though at the university level, where one can also
practice the engineering profession. 

Gee, STeve.  I can echo almost everything you said...  Having been through
the A^2 school system from stem to stern and not fitting the mold, we've
had similar experiances.  My concern now is that of a parent.  My daughter
will do fine.  She fits the mold and will do well in the A^2 system.  My
real concern lies with my son.  He marches to his own beat and learns
from methods not embrased by the A^2 school system.  In K-garten they 
pushed him so hard in making perfect letters that by the end of the year
we could no longer get him to write.  He said it was too hard and that he
couldn't do it.  Prior to that he was doing inventive spelling and did a
lot of writing.  Then, this summer, my wife (A teacher herself.) taught him
to read.  He is very prowd of his reading ability and reads to us as well as
his little sister.  We are concerned that he not learn to hate reading by 
the end of first grade.
 
As far as the "alternative"school issue, yes, it takes a very good teacher
to teach in an open environment like that.  By good I mean flexable and in
tune with each childs needs.  Not good in the sense of having a 4.0 GPA
upon graduating from teacher school.  A^2 schools seem to have more of the
latter and few of the former.  There is no way they can open more open
schools since they don't have the resources to staff them.  Another sword
in their side is the tenured teachers they now employ.  Getting rid of
someone with tenure is a *big* headach and expense.

Valerie, THIS is an example of a "good" and interesting item because of the
dialogue that it generated.

re 7 and 8:
        I'm not sure how it works at bach and MYA, but Community does not have
sibling priority.  When the idea was proposed a few years ago a lot of the
parents really wanted it, but the teachers and students shot it down on the
basis that it isn't fair to those who don' thave siblings at Community.

As and example of the way the schools differ:  for the last 3 years when
we asked Staci how things went in school every day the usual reply was
"good", "OK", and "not so good".  This year when STeve picks her up from
school and asks how her day was the response has been an enthusiastic
"wonderful, like usual".   When they picked me up from work on Wednesday,
she greeted me with "guess what we did today,  Mom!  We went on a tour
of the whole school, and we got to go 'everywhere', all by ourselves, without
a supervisor!!"  It seems that her teacher felt that the new students should
tour the school to see where everything was, so he placed each of the new
students in a group with a student who had attended Bach since kindergarten
and a student that had attended last year and sent them off for a tour.  They
got to visit all the different classrooms (and were welcomed by the students
and teacher in each), the office, lunchroom, janitor's closet, teachers'
lounge, etc.  I have rarely heard her so happy, excited and wonderous all
at the same time.  The biggest thing that she kept repeating was "and we
got to go without a supervisor".  I know of no mainstream public school
which would allow this.

Damon hasn't been quite as enthusiastic as Staci, but seems to be happy
and eager to go to school every morning.  I think that he is playing it
cool and lying low until he is sure that everything is going to be fine.
He was so unhappy last year and it was very difficult to get him up and
off to school during the last half of the year, that it is good to see
him eager to get going again.  He is excited about a couple of his
courses already and it promises to get better as he feels more comfortable.

   Interesting (and depressing) that we've had similar experiences
Klaus.  How many techers were really good in your career here?  I can
count eight.

   Something that I think I've seen in the schools here in the
last few years:  the teachers themselves are selecting for the
schools they want.  I believe that the more flexible and tolerant
techers are migrating towards the three alternative schools.  Not
completely to be sure, but from talking to several teachers last
year (at Dicken) about MYA, I got the distinct feeling that they
were either supportive of the idea of a place like MYA, or pretty
much against it.  I know that you have to volunteer to get into
one of the alternative places, so no one in forced to go.

Where I'm from, the only alternative to public school is private school. I
went to public schools until 10th grade, when I voluntarily transferred to
a private one. Anyway, elementary school was a drag. I also did not fit into
the grades to match. And as I got older, I learned that if you didn't make
great grades, you didn't count for squat. You didn't get the honors,
privliges, or praise and were basically ignored. My poor math grades (it
wasn't until I was 20 and took tests on my own accord that I found out I was
LD) kept me out of honors programs. My self esteem dropped and I wasn't so
sure anymore that I wasn't stupid. It's the most frustrating thing in the
world to work hard and not ever see the results gradewise. Despite my test
scores in math never reflected my real IQ, no teacher ever bothered to suggest
testing. Half the time they were too busy trying to get the class to shut up.
In 9th grade I went to the teacher because I couldn't understand a math
problem... she said she was too busy and told me to sit down. In 1st grade
I got a lower grade for not placing two fingers between each word I'd written.
What amazes me still is how many parents will take a teacher's opinion at face
value and think that the teacher must know what's best. I know of a girl who
was held back in 4th grade not for her grades but because she was not
"socially ready" for 5th grade! Is anyone socially ready for 5th grade?! 
This girl is an Occupational Therapist now and is engaged. Yeah, I'm sure
that's all due to repeating 4th grade... and the teasing from her peers for
being held back sure helped her social skills too. I am so afraid, when I have
kids, to put them through school. I definitely plan to get involved with their
schooling. I don't advocate home schooling but I can see why some parents feel
there is no other option.

Until Ann Arbor offers more alternative schools I see it as unfair to
allow siblings to bypass any lottery.  Why?  Single kids are far less
likely to gain a spot in the school, the decision to send a sibling has
usually less to do with the individual learning needs of the child and
more to do with the parents simply wanting all their kids to go have the
same "experience", and there are simply too many who desperately want to
attend these schools to let a smaller group have greater access. 

To open another alternative high school in Ann Arbor would not have meant
hiring any additional staff.  There are so many students per staff in the
system, and what building they teach at wouldn't change that ratio.  A few
years ago when the proposed new alternative high school was actually going
to cost less per student than either of the mega-schools the critics asked
how this could be...  The answer was that the alternative students were
willing to give up things like swimming pools and football teams and
*libraries* in order to have their alternative programs, and that it would
indeed be cost effective.  The mega-schools wouldn't suffer any hardships
and in fact it would ease overcrowding their facilities. 

The alternative school critics heard these words.  They even heard the
administrative bean counters reiterate that the numbers were indeed true,
and then they proceeded to totally ignore the comments and continue to
preach to their PTO groups that the system couldn't afford to spend money
on such projects and that if they did their schools would have their
budgets slashed and things like football might be in jeopardy, so vote for
the no-alternative School Board slate.  And they did, right on cue. 
Based on unfounded fears and patent lies.

Those who were following the issue couldn't believe the distortions being
used to squash the project.  So now there are two high schools, with 2000
students each, and lots of problems with overcrowding and students who are
lost in a system unable to met their needs.  But man, do they have a great
football team. 

I'm not a religious person but this particular episode has mean 
leaning toward vouchers for private schools.  If School Boards
won't be responsible and put the needs of students before politics
then maybe letting parents have a real choice about going to 
public schools will give them a sense of accountablity.  

I went thrugh the Ann Arbor school system. Elementary school was
absolutely fantastic. Jr High was a drag. I went to Pioneer for some
classes when I was in Jr High, as the Jr High had no advanced courses.
I had to schlep myself from Tappan to Pioneer every day, and the time
it took made me give up music classes, which I liked. There was also
a "teacher shortage" (whatever the heck that means) during Jr High, so
we had shop teachers teaching English and the like. I went to Community
for one semester and hated it.

I went thru the whole regular A2 thing also.  The down side was:
1.  A weird old lady teacher in 3rd grade that made my parents switch schools
for the rest of elementary (xferred to Newport, which was much better - my
parents had to drive me, everyday, which I appreciate a great deal more now
when I look back at it).  
2.  Junior high was the worst pit in hell, but it is for any student.   I
went to Forsythe, where MYA is, so MYa wouldn't have been any better as far
as climate goes.

The rest was pretty good - Pioneer had a huge theater to work in, especialy
since they rented it out for shows all the time and had a paid student crew
to run it - *very* good experience.  Community probably had much better
computers, even then, but I'm glad I never got too close to computers back
then - I ended up heavily into music instead, and still ended up a
professional computer geek.  :)

STeve, there was one teacher in elementary school who had me figured out
the first week I was in class.  Dean Smith.  A fantastic teacher for me.
No one else stands out.  I hated Jr. High and liked Huron.  Huron was
only one year old when I started 10th grade .

This has been linked from agora (summer 1995) 129 to the smalls 
conference, item 69.

        I went to elementary school all over the place, and had a pretty wide
variety of experiences.  I went to Kindergarten at Nixon Elementary School
in Palo Alto, CA (not named after the former President).  I don't remember
too much about it, but I remember that I generally liked going to school, and
liked both my teachers (the class had two teachers), learned a fair amount,
got along well with the other kids, and generally had a good time.  I vaguely
remember days when the teacher would take us for walks around the neighborhood
and things like that.  It was quite an enjoyable experience.  Then I came back
to Ann Arbor for first grade.  I don't really remember first grade very much,
except that we spent a lot of time on learning how to form our letters in
exactually the right way (anybody who's seen my handwriting can tell that that
obviously didn't help much).  I think we also spent a lot of time on various
math worksheets that involved "+1 -2 spirals" and things like that, where we
would have a spiral with lots of dots on it, and we had to to fill in numbers.
Depending on the color of the line, we either needed to fill in a number that
was one more than the previous number, or one that was two less than the
previous number.  There were lots of variations on it.  I had a lot of trouble
with it; I'm not sure whether I just didn't understand how to do it, or more
likely, I think it bored me so much that I couldn't concentrate on it.  Since
I don't have any horrible memories of first grade, I'll assume it was pretty
much ok.
        When I got to second grade, my problems really started.  I wasn't
finishing my work, and rather than trying to figure out why I was having
trouble with it, my teacher decided that the best thing to do was just send
it home with me.  I'm not sure, but I think she must have either thought it
would be good training for the time a few years down the road when everybody
would have to do homework, or as an incentive for me to get it done at school,
so that I wouldn't have to take it home.  I think it was the latter.  Whatever
the intended result was, it backfired.  I had as much trouble finishing this
stuff at home as I did at school, and as the pile of it grew and grew, I think
I pretty much started feeling overwhelmed by this busywork.  It was the first
time I can remember actually dreading going to school, but that feeling of
dread towards school was something that would stay with me through middle
school.
        Third grade was much better.  I was in a private school in Oxford,
England, I had a teacher, Miss Kinnear, who seemed to really know how to get
through to me.  I actually started enjoying reading, writing, and math, that
year; all three of those were things I really dreaded before.  By the end of
the year, I was doing better than everybody else in the class on our math
tests, and the math we were being taught in third grade included entry level
Algebra.  I was actually looking forward to going to school in the mornings
that year, and had a really fun time desipite a bit of anti-Americanism among
some of the other students.
        For fourth grade it was back to Burns Park, and back to the same old
worksheets that had given me so much trouble before.  Again I started having
trouble with everything, and dreading going to school.  I ti didn't help that
if I didn't have everything done, my teacher had a tendency to start yelling
at me about it, in front of the rest of the class.  It was at the end of that
year, when my teacher was threatening to make me repeat fourth grade, that
my parents finally figured out that I was dyslexic, and I started getting
tutoring to help with that, both from somebody at Burns Park and from a
private tutor my parents hired.  Fifth grade went really well with a really
good teacher who was willing to do things a bit differently from what was the
stock Ann Arbor Public Schools way of doing elementary school at that time.
I then switched to Emerson, a private school in Ann Arbor for sixth grade,
and that went well too.  Emerson put a lot of emphasis on students teaching
other students and let me do things at my own pace, which really helped a
lot.  My teacher at Emerson also encouraged me to do my writing on the
computer, which made writing a lot easier than it was at Burns Park, where
word processors were generally frowned on.
        I went to Tappan for seventh and eighth grades, and that experience
mostly turned me off to school again, after the year at Emerson where school
was actually something to enjoy.  For most of my classes there there was one
right way to do things, and the only explanation that was needed for there
being only one way to do things was that what the teacher said went.  There
were exceptions to this, and I had some really wonderful teachers there. 
Linda Carter, my orchestra teacher who is now President of the teachers' union
always managed to make her class interesting and fun, while still teaching
us a lot about music.  Marlene Brannon, the advisor to the school newspaper,
was the person who got me interested in journalism, which was the one thing
I really did well in and put a lot of effort into in middle school.  Later,
as a Community student, I even went back to Tappan to help her teach the
newspaper class.  There were other good teachers there too, but I think they
were the exception rather than the rule.  All things considered, I hated
middle school.
        Then I got to Community.  Suddlenly I was trusted to do things on my
own, without constant adult supervision.  If I decided I would rather be
somewhere other than school for whatever reason, nobody was going to stop me
from leaving.  If I didn't want to take a class I didn't have to, as long as
I could come up with some other way to learn the same sort of stuff as that
class was teaching.  If I wanted to do something that wasn't taught there,
all I had to do was find somebody to teach it.  At Community, school was not
what some teacher or administrator thought it should be; it was what I wanted
it to be, and I learned a lot of things there that I never could have in a
more traditional setting.

i think the problem is in the size of the schools.  They are to large to deal
with the needs of the individual students.

   Thats part of it Bruce, but not the whole story, unforunately.
It's a mixture of several things.  Certainly a teacher with a large
class is going to have a much harder time dealing with all of the
students on a reasonable basis.

   I can echo a lot of your thoughts, Steve.  Espically about
Community.  I don't think I would have graduated had it not
been for that school.

   I do agree with Mary about her thoughts on vouchers.  If/when
that happens, I wouldn't be surprised to see more smallish schools
pop up and serve a small community of students.

   I really do think, most of the time, that the best thing that
America could do would be to *blow up* the school system as we
know it.  Those who wanted the traditional system would be able
to find that type of school; indeed, they would be the most common.
But the folks who waned other schools would find before long
that other different types of schools would come into existence.

   It's places like Bach/MYA/Community that keep me from thinking
the above paragraph is the only way to go.  I was too apathetic
to do much other that internally grouse when the 2nd alternative
high school was killed, which I now regret very much.  The way I
see it, I have three years in which to help that cause before
Damon has to go through the lottery, assuming that he wants to
go there.

I think I would have done well in a school like Community, if we had one. One
thing I hated about high school was that I knew I  could handle more
responsibilities if people would just trust me with them. I know every kid
says they want to be treated like an adult, but I genuinely did at the time.
Administrators gave me the "what do you know you're just a kid" response.
As for schoolwork, I think I got so tired of being forced into a mold that
didn't fit that I basically quit trying. I have 2 semesters left of college
now and I used to have ,y sights on grad school, but I am so fried from school
that I may defer this for a year or so. I do know the day I graduate will be
the happiest of my life! :)

   Heh.  I've had friends who've gone wild that day.  Had to fish
one out of the Huron river once.

   I wonder if its the handling more responsibilities, or that
students chafe at the inflexabilities of most schools.  I'm
hard pressed to try to figure out which bothers me more.

Pioneer was actually really good for letting me be responsible for some
things.  As a stagehand for theatre rentals, I dealt directly with visiting
acts, finding out what they needed to get their show to work and having to
then make it happen.  I even got to assemble a portable PA system for the
cafeterias, picking and assembling the equipment, and setting things up int
the cafeterias to hook into the speakers from the announcement system.  I
wasn't given any direction there - just figure out a use for this leftover
mixer, kid, and see if you can do something about this dead cafeteria PA
system!  I ended up going thru catalogs and tracing building wiring to get
it all figured out.

Disclaimer - most students probably don't get opportunities like this, but
I still give a lot of credit to the administration for letting it happen -
a lot of places might have immediately decided that a mere student couldn't
possibly be able to do such a project.

I don't recall getting any credit for the project, but it was worth it
anyways.  :)

Pioneer can give a really good education, but you have to take responsibility
for it yourself, and not let them track you, or tell you what you can
and can't do.  It's also probably necessary to be good at learning on 
your own, since the teacher's aren't numerous enough to give enough 
individual attention to each student.  
I didn't really need individual attention, though.  I always learned 
stuff on my own anyways, so I thrived at Pioneer.  

Sounds like the High scool I went to. A good education was available, but you
had to dig for it.

The teenage years are when a person progresses from a kid to an adult.  An
open environment is esential in the development process.  Indeed, this
process should start at birth.

I just rolled through the AAPS system.  They never demanded anything near what
I could do, and I was never eager to stretch myself.  I got a reasonable
education out of it, but I think a more challenging program would have done
me good.  As it was, they neglected me, and I was willing to be neglected.

Now, isn't that typical of an *alternative* school, where you have greater
freedom to tailor your own education? 

Perhaps.  With a naturally lazy student like me, the teachers would have to
be on the ball.  I expect there is a tendancy not to worry about students who
seem not to have any terribly obvious scholastic problems.  Teachers have
enough to do with kids who are on obvious crash courses without worrying too
much over the ones who simply may not be working up to their potential,
especially if they don't much want to.

why is it that i have to find one of the singularily finest conference
items of all time ... at 5am? dammmit - in brief, if my parents had not
found an "alternative" <there are several types> school for my young-ass
back in the 6th grade, i will guarantee you i'd be dead or in jail, or
both. (7th-12th was hardly singing a song, but what it taught me is
more valuable <then and now> than any other experience, short or long,
in my life.)
  
The one-mold-forms-all is, quite simply, a singularily stupid thought.

Our school systems only objective is that you graduate.  Anything more
is frosting on the cake.  janc would have been better off in a school
that chalanged him, not just pass him along.

  Of course.  I have to mostly agree about your stated objectives too.
Once, at Tappan in the 8th grade, I had a friend who was doing poorly
in math.  Towards the end of the marking period, they (the school
counselors) got him a tutor to assist in coaching him in leaaring
enough for the final test such that he could pass.  My friends 
feeling was that he'd rather flunk and take the whole class again,
but with a tutor right from the start.  His counselor wouldn't let
him drop out, and did finally get the tutor and had enough math
banged into his hear that he was able to mouth enough math that
he got a C on the final test making for a C+ final grade.

   But he still didn't know the math, and the next year had horrid
problems with that, because he didn't have the previous years
experience and thus had the same problem all over again.  This
time, he jsut stopped going to class and outright flunked.  It
seemed to him that this was the only way he could get off the
merry-go-round.  It occured to both of us that Tappan was far
more interested in getting him through class, then teaching him
something about the subject at hand.

   It was about this time that I realized that I'd have to do things
entirely on my own in the school system if I were to learn anything,
since the sytem sdchool system wasn't about to deviate from its
goals and try to actually help the student who was having problems.
I saw this happen at least twice more at Tappan with other people I
knew.

Most students only *want* to just get through the class. Don't be
surprised tht teacher might think they are helping the student
when they help them to pass the course. I think you asking the
almost impossible of teachers, to expect them to go against the
strong desire of the student, for their "good". Perhaps they do, if
they can see that "spark" for learning in the student. Perhaps they
did not see such a spark in your friend. Whose fault is that?

This response has been erased.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss