Recently I watched a daytime talk show about fathers who never pay their
child support.
 One comment that came up fairly often was, "She never/hardly ever lets
me visit the kids. Why should I pay my child support?"
 Is it fair that the children of divorced parents should have to go 
without adequate food/clothing/entertainment because the mother doesn't
let the father visit often enough? Isn't that a problem between the
parents, not something the kids should have to pay for?

50 responses total.

 I wonder about the administration of 'child support' funds. Is it fair that
the father & ex-husband must pass the funds on to his former wife, allowing
her to spend them at her discretion?
 
  Does the the father's child support pay for the "entertainment" if mommy &
mommy's boyfriend decide to take Junior to Chuck E. Cheese?

re #0:  It's a two-way street.  If mommy is violating court-ordered
        visitation rights, what gives her *any* right to complain that
        her husband is not giving her court-ordered child support?

        Don't forget -- the children pay dearly, also, when deprived of
        their right to see a parent.

  I think everyone agrees that no matter what, the child is damaged the most.
 
  I also think that it is safe to say that in most cases, the father certainly
is concerned for the welfare ofthe child.
 
   The problem is the fault of two immature/irrational parents. One using the
child as a pawn, the other using child-support payments as a pawn.
 
  The Court system/friend of the court is pretty useless too.
 
 The only people that ever benefit from this mess are attorneys.

  And even they don't like it much.  My sister practices law in a small town
and thus doesn't really have the option of taking cases in only those areas of
law that she enjoys.  She describes child custody and divorce work as being
the worst possible.  Unfortunately, they're both growing areas..

  What if the parent X were to provide food, clothing, education, etc. for
the children instead of paying cash directly to parent Y.  Would that be a 
reasonable substitute?

As a practical matter, only a small percentage of fathers ordered to pay
child support really do so.  The enforcement system is a disgrace.

Of course, when enforcement takes place, the focus seems to be on putting
"lowlifes" (all the guys who are unemployed and/or unemployable) in jail,
while the former East Lansing District Judge is able to declare bankruptcy
and walk away from tens of thousands of dollars in unpaid child support.

 The kids should not be punished no matter what. Aaron, do you honestly
believe that a man has the right, whether legal or moral, to withhold
funds from his children?
 It takes two incomes to raise a family these days. A man should be
responsible financially for his kids even if they're not physically
in his life most of the time.
 Fathers who don't pay their support payments can not say that they
care about the welfare of their children. If they did care, they
woul;dn't subject them to hunger and humiliation.
 I have no statistics in this area, but I'd bet money on the fact that
most non-paying fathers aren't interested in custody or visits anyway.
They use it as an excuse not to pay.

re #6:  Did I say that?  If so, are you asserting that a woman has the
        right, either legal or moral, to withhold visitation?  Does your
        point about father's caring for the children not apply equally
        to a mother, who deprives her children of their father's company?

        I assert only that the old equitable doctrine of "unclean hands"
        should apply -- when you come before a court of equity, such as
        a divorce court, you should only be awarded relief if you are
        prepared to do equity yourself.  

        (For the most part, Tim is right.)

   The whole system is disgusting, and I wish people thought a bit more
before deciding to have children.

It is WRONG for the custodial parent to deny visitation that has been
established.  However, it is also equally WRONG for the non-custodial
parent to withold child support under any circumstances.  Try saying
to the child involved,"Sorry you may have to go without some things,
important thought they may be, but I won't help support you at all
because your mother (or custodial parent) won't let me see you.
Yeah, I know it makes things rough for you, but..."

Who here has been in a child-support situation themselves? Let's see those
hands! 
Particularly, who's been the child? 
<I raise my hand>

Thrown into the mix is the amount paid, or required to pay. For me, it
was $100/month, from the time I was three until I was 18. At three, it 
wasn't much, but it helped. At 14, it was a disgrace, and it was 
humiliating to depend so much on that meager aid for food and the like.
Especially when it was late.

 My dad didn't pay his support. He is/was an extremely wealthy man.
He left my mom with 4 kids under age 18. We were eligible for food stamps
at one point, tho my mother wouldn't take them.
 I was embarrassed to have my friends over, we were so poor. My mom was
humiliated that she couldn't buy us some necessities or any extras.
 We made do, obviously, but to be a kid in elementary school and jr. high
with all the peer pressure and all, it was continually embarrassing.
 My dad would have us come and visit him in Beverly Hills, and tell us
that if we lived out there with him we could have anything we wanted.
Horses, private school, stuff like that. My mom was always under the
fear that he would be able to bribe us away from her. One summer when
it was time to send us back home, he kept my little brother and it was
up to my sisiter and me to tell my mom when she picked us up at the
airport that he wasn't with us. My mom didn't see him for two years, I
think it was.
 My dad never wanted custody in the first place. He never even asked to
see us until several years after the divorce. 
 He owed my mom over $375,000 in child support as of about 10 years ago.

RE 8: And I also wish people would think a bit more before having 
        a divorce.

re #11:  Have you ever asked your father why he didn't ask to see you?
         My father let my mother move to England, effectively terminating
         his visitation rights, because he thought it was best to let her
         get her life on track in the manner she thought best.  It was, in
         my opinion, poor judgment, but it was not malicious.

This response has been erased.

 Re 13: Yes, I asked him. he said he "felt guilty" and couldn't face us.

 re #5:  What's a "small percentage"?  Do you have any statistics to back
         that up?  I'd have thought that the majority of divorced parents
         payed, albeit grudgingly.  I'd be quite surprised to find that it
         really was a "small percentage".

 Divorce law probably needs a serious overhaul.  In particular, the 
presumptions that are made as a default are getting more and more outdated
as time goes by (for example, the presumption that a child is better off in
the custody of the mother unless demonstrated otherwise.  The fact that 
everyone here is talking about fathers withholding support and mothers 
withholding visitation rights and not ever the other way around sure seems
to indicate a significant bias to me..)

 Not necessarily. Mothers rarely abandon their kids. That's just plain
reality. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were a very small
percentage of people who do pay their support payments.

Re 17:  You're probably right, mothers don't often abandon their 
children, but it seems that you are generalizing about fathers way too much 
based on your bad experience.

 Nah.

  re #17:  I know as many kids whose mothers left as I know kids whose
fathers did.  Which doesn't prove anything, since it's purely anecdotal,
but I would probably argue with your statement that mothers rarely abandon
their children.  I suspect any judge or social worker would too.
 
  Whether or not more fathers abandon their families than mothers is 
beside the point in cases where both parents want custody, though.  Unless
the parties are just trying to gain custody of the children to hurt their
ex-spouse or avoid child-support payments (an all-too-common occurrence)
it seems unlikely that either parent, having cared enough to fight for
their children, would turn around and abandon them.

Re 16.  As I understand it, something like 70 to 80 percent of fathers
ordered to pay child support fail to do so, at least to the extent ordered.
Most of those never pay anything at all.

Those numbers are based on a study I saw while I was on the Human Resources
Committee of the Ingham County Board of Commissioners.  If you're really
interested, I could probably dig it up for you.

If you don't consider 20-30 percent a "small percentage," then I apologize.

The "tender years" doctrine, stating that the kids are best off with Mom,
has been pretty well abandoned--officially.  Often, Mom is the one who's
been spending most of her time maintaining the household, even if she has
a full-time job, so she gets at least joint custody. 

I was very fortunate, in that I was 16 when my parents divorced.  That
way, it was clear that I was perfectly able to decide when and where I
would live and when I would visit.  I told them right off the bat that
if either of them pulled any attempts at anything less than joint custody
with visitation and living arrangements left totally up to me, that parent
would never see me again.
  
They were also both businesslike enough to draw up a written agreement
specifying exactly what the terms of support and providing for my education
would be.  Generally they give the money directly to me, and I let the
other parent know that the payment has been made, so they don't have to
deal with each other.

(Every time I read an item like this, I am grateful that my parents
had a pretty good marriage and stayed together.  In fact, I am
thinking of copying this item and sending it to them with a thank-you
note.)

Re #21--"Ordered to pay"--what, exactly, does that mean?  I assume we're
taking about a large population of families that separate, a smaller
percentage that actually get an actual divorce, and in the divorces, a
certain percentage of men who push for visitation rights or even
custody, and a certain percentage who want to get off scott-free.

RE 23: Kind of makes 'pretty good' sound better:)

Yup.

Re 24.  Exactly what I said.  Ordered to pay child support by a court.
Most couples with children who split up DO eventually get divorced, and if
so, the absent parent will almost invariably be ordered to pay at least
some child support.

Alimony may be going out of style, but where there are minor children in
a divorce proceeding, there will be child support.  Go sit in on circuit
court on whatever day they do all the divorce orders, and see for yourself.

Child support may also be ordered as a result of a successful paternity
suit.

I can't claim great familiarity with divorce proceedings in general,
but it was my impression that in the great majority of such cases,
the two parties generally try to come to some agreement in advance,
including child support, so that the actual court proceedings will
go as quickly and smoothly (and cheaply) as possible.  I take it,
from what you're saying, is that even in an essentially "rubber-stamp"
type procedure, that the judge is still said to "order child support"?

 Yes.

Yes, exactly.  Most judges will refuse to approve a divorce settlement
involving minor children without child support being in the order.

In Washtenaw county divorces are heard on Tuesday at 3pm in the County
Court House at the city "origin".  (Main and Huron, I think)

I second Steve's advice - think hard before having kids.  Don't
"accidently" have one.

Don't just *think* hard -- be very sure of your feelings about parenthood
before taking the plunge.

Actually is is very hard to 'be very sure of your feelings about parenthood
before taking the plunge' until you are one.  I have always wanted a large
family (and dispite what STeve says I only intended on bearing 2-3 of them
myself and adopting the remaining 9-10).  I came from a large family, one
where it seemed that the more there were around the more love there was to
share.  I now have 2 of my own and sometimes they are about 3 too many.  I
love kids and have always loved kids.  I was the favorite babysitter in my
area.  I am the oldest of 6 and helped raise the younger ones (my youngest
sister is almost more my kid than she is my mother's).  I often find being
a mother is the hardest, most frustrating, aggrevating, stressful job I've
ever done.  I can now see why some parents leave their children and why some
physically abuse them.  I've had those feelings myself (sometimes all too
often).  Fortunately I can and do control them.  At this point I'm not sure
that I would do it again if I could live my life over knowing what I know now.

This response has been erased.

I don't care how many, as long as I can have MY BOY to bring up right!
Anyone know where I can get crawl-football uniforms?

RE 34: sounds like you regret it.

  Sounds like she's being honest.  I doubt there are very many parents 
who never look back and wonder what their life would be like without
their children.  I imagine that most of those who do, at least once in
a while, regret the loss of freedom and the added responsibility they
have required.  It means nothing about whether or not they're a good
parent or whether they love their children, it only means they're a normal
human being.

I know that. I was only saying it sounded a little one-sided:)

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss