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82 responses total.

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Damn good questions, popcorn, let me know if you find the answers :)

I got my daughter music she liked playing and pointed out all the neat
clarinet playing on Van Morrion's albums ( whom she likes a lot ).  Dunno
about the results yet, but she did elect to continue clarinet into the 
second year.

Additionally, I'd expose the kid to clarinet music and see how he/she
responds.  Alot of times, the kid may have mis-chosen the instrument that
they wanted to play, too.  In Monroe, there is a 6-week mini-course at the
7th grade school that lets students pick up any instrument they wish for
6-weeks.  The real trick to make music fun.  If its not fun, they won't like
to continue and they won't want to practice or take lessons.  They can get
serious later, when they're better musicians.  In the early stages, its
gotta be fun to keep their attention.

back to the experimentation: they might also find that although they are
good at the instrument they play, they ENJOY playing another more.

If they're sour no matter what they do, maybe they really don't like it.

Encourage extra-curricular group-playing:  marching band, jazz band, pep
bands, etc.  The social content is much higher and it makes playing ALOT
more fun.

I've played sax for 13 years now (oh my god!) and those things all worked
collectively for me.  Now I *did* take to it really quickly, so it was never
difficult for me to play the instrument, but I was always kept interested,
and I think that's the important part.  it was always fun.

By the way, if anyone's free on Tuesday, July 27.... The Monroe Big Band (&
me) will be performing a freebie in St. Mary's park starting at 7pm, going
until the bugs carry us away. We play 40's style big band stuff with
everything since then thrown in for variety.  Bring a lawn chair or blanket
and some bug spray.  Corner of Elm and Monroe street (m-125) in Monroe.
[end of shameless plug]

Our daughter joined the instrument lottery at Pattengill in 5th grade,
and got a flute, though she wanted violin. She made it through 5th grade
blowing the flute and announced that she was quitting. We never forced
her to practice - I'm not entirely sure that practice would really make
a big difference - so it has been up to her. I have helped, however, by
now and then showing her a little (like, a half note is twice as long as
a quarter note), which appears to help. This summer the school system
offered a couple of weeks of band practice, so she borrowed the school
flute, and she goes off (9-10 am) to morning practice. We'd like her to
continue, but are applying almost no pressure - just encouragement. 
(Unfortunately, neither of us an play an instrument.)

So, my recommendations are to stay "loose", offer encouragement, listen
to any performances she offers you, applaud, and grit your teeth when
necessary.

I would say, start the child early, before the child is particularly
concerned about performance.  (e.g., with the Suzuki method for the violin,
which children can begin as young as three.)  Don't make practices a
chore or punishment.  Allow the child to experiment with different
instruments, if the child so desires, including those you may find
revolting or deafening (e.g., bagpipes or drums).  Don't expect a
virtuoso, and remember that it is your child who is learning to play the
instrument.  (Don't force your own desire to play an instrument upon the
child, vicariously.)

I would guess that, especially where the parents don't play instruments,
it takes a great deal of luck or parenting skill to instill instrumental
desires in a child.

Friends sometime do. I have a son who also grew up in an instrumentless
family but who suddenly, at age ca. 17, met people that were into banjos.
He not only learned the banjo - "frailing", no less - but plays for
square and other dancing, etc, as a side line. Its nice that not all
talents arise in childhood.

   I tried to like my piano and clarinet lessons, but my mom tends to
get carried away an take over the piano. Her biggest saying... "don't
look for it.".  Even though I can play very few tunes on the piano, 
 I am better at tuning the darn thing rather than playing it, and 
no, you don't have to know how to play to tune, only to be able to
hear the beats of the different notes.

First off, you mentioned a friend who is raising 3 talented musicians and
you're wondering how she did it. I believe that alot of people are born
with a talent for music. The basic instinct is there and they will find it.
So she may not have had to do anything "right", she just may have gotten
lucky.

Second, I think one of your Mom's biggest mistakes was to force you away
from what *you* wanted to play, and making you plan the written pieces.
Someone learning to play should be allowed to explore the sounds that please
them, not the instructor.

Third, and this is highly subjective from my own experience, don't force it
on the student. I *hated* music class because it was something that didn't
interest me at the time but I was forced to take it. My sister had a guitar
and I plinked on it once or twice, but I was so turned off by the school
system's approach that I was never interested. Later, when I was 22, I decided
to try to learn guitar. I've been playing for 12 years now, but there are
people who have learned to play better than me in 3. I believe that if I
had been exposed to it at a much younger age, I would probably be alot better.

If you make it a chore, something he *has* to do, the child will be turned
off. Here's an idea: Play him alot of different music, solos of as many
different instruments until you find one that grabs his interest. If you
can find music that really seems to capture the child and convince him
that he can learn to make music like the music that interests him, then he
will *want* to learn to play.

Sure, make practice a punishment, and the music in the soul dies
a rapid, premature death.
  
"I ahve to play this stuff cause I did something wrong. I am
being punished."   Dumb,dumb,dumb!
  
So sorry to hear the typical refrain, it's so defeating. 
  
Imo, it needs to be configured the same as homework, with parental
prodding (not practicing garners punishment) until there is a
noticable change in the child's proficiency (or 'if') . When it
becomes something 'desireable', then prohibiting the play cna
be used as a negative to be avoided. 
  
A lot of activities can be cast into   carrot-and-stick  approaches,
with the understanding that the roles are subject to +reversal+!

My own experience (as a former child, not as a parent):  I hated practicing
because (I think) I couldn't see that it mattered whether I practiced or
not.  My teachers failed to get through to me what effective practicing
is (how & why) - for which I'm doubtless as much to blame as they are, since
at least sometimes they *said* the right things.

I think the biggest factor was that the only reinforcement was a half-hour-
a-week formal lesson.  I was never playing regularly for an audience of any
kind.

At 15 I picked up a guitar, started teaching myself (mostly), and made
**extremely** slow progress.  At 19 or 20 I found myself in a very, very
informal weekly performance (sort of) situation - and my ability took
off.  There were other reasons, too, but the fact is that for me knowing
that people are going to hear me make mistakes is the single most important
factor determining whether I practice at all and whether I really practice
or just go through the motions.

I doubt that the traditional parents-sit-all-their-friends-down-to-listen
approach would do much for this; but if kids are playing for people
*they* want to impress, it's likely to help.  For many kids, anyway.

A good teacher *really* makes a lot of difference, too.  The cases I know
of where kids grew up excelling at piano (some of my cousins and one
cousin's kids), the teachers were expensive but worth it.  I believe that
the parent was required to be present at the lessons and involved in the
practicing as daily coach; my impression is that the teacher put a lot
of effort into training the parent to be an effective coach.  If your
child shows talent & musical interest to make thoughts of becoming a
professional musician a possibility, this probably makes sense.  (We're
talking about fairly young kids here, for the most part, I think.)

Tell them it is something they are too young to do.  It is only for older
children.  Nope soorry, this insterment is mine.  You cannot have it.  What.
you say you want to  play.  You think you are old enough.  Well, you realize
it means practicing every day.  You do.  Okay, I'll let you play, but only 
if you are sure it is waht you want.  
Now eat your broccoli.

Kids, bright kids, see through manipulative behavior pretty easily
so I'd pretty much avoid anything along those lines.  Once you've
established yourself as dishonest you'll rightfully lose your child's
respect.  And it really does happen in small increments over time.

From what I've heard of the Suzuki method it sounds pretty positive.
Ideally, the child is very young and both a parent and the child 
take lessons together, both learning the instrument from scratch.
It is something they share.  They both struggle and make mistakes, 
work through the need to practice, and experience the pride of
progress - together.  Some lessons are taken jointly and some privately.
But the absolute bottom line is that the experience builds self-esteem
first and a good musician might follow.

#0: My parents grumbled about the expense of piano lessons. I told them that
    everyone would be happier if the lessons were stopped. (They were pissed
    as hell because the other Chinese they knew in Toronto had kids who 
    practiced six hours a day.)
 

What do you find distateful about some degree of up-front manupulation?
Getting someone to do something "because" rather than "just for the
sake of" is manipulation. At least there is no disguise, which is
possibly what your objection is.

Manipulation is omnipresent, and "up-front" manipulation has its
place in the parenting repertoire.  What I'm commenting on is the
type of manipulation where little lies are told (sometimes referred
to politely as reverse psychology) in order to get something out of
the child.  Such tactics are inappropriate in adult interactions and
they aren't any better pulled on kids.  

I picked up a one of thoes cheap electronic pianos that makes 101
different sounds.  I also have a couple of nice harmonicas my dad
gave me as a kid.  I let our kids, 2.75 & 4, play with these every
now and then.  They love it and we don't mind the "music" every
now and then.
My wife, a preschool for many years, was surprised to find that
the kids who were taking the Suzuki classes really loved what
they were donig!  Would be interesting to hear about this method
to find out why it appeals to children.

I tried clarinet in the 2nd grade.  Dropped it soon after.  I really
can't remember why, other than "I didn't like it".  A few years later
I got a guitar as a birthday present.  I didn't remember asking for it,
but I gave it a shot.  15 years later, I'm still playing it.  What
was the motivation?  You got me.  Maybe it was all those KISS posters
I had hanging in my room....

I'm a serious amateur musician -- piano and harpsichord.  I used to do
the violin and still like to noodle around on the recorder occasionally.
Nowadays I play mainly for my own and (hopefully) the rest of the
household's enjoyment, but over the years I've done a fair amount of
ensemble playing, accompanying, and solo public performing.  My musical
training started around the age of four and I've managed to sustain my
interest, so perhaps my experiences will provide some insights.

My childhood home was full of music -- my mother played piano, we had
an extensive classical record collection that got played a lot, there
was a lot of radio listening.  I think the musical atmosphere was
an important factor.

I was encouraged to noodle around on the keyboard from the age of three.
My earliest experience with the piano was that it was a "fun" thing to
do.  That stuck.

Formal lessons started at age four or five.  Though my mother would get
after me to learn my assignments, I was *never* discouraged from playing
around on the keyboard, make up tunes, that kind of thing.

During my late childhood and early adolescent years (ages 10-13, maybe),
I tended to neglect practicing, my mother would get upset about that and
nag, I'd resist -- the usual rebellious behavior that sets in at that
age, I suppose.  Perhaps I'd have made more progress if she'd not made it
into a contest of wills, not set things up so that I could "win" by
rebelling.  Or maybe the push was what I needed to keep me involved at
all during a critical period.  Or maybe that didn't make any difference.
Dunno.  (Real insightful, eh?)

In high school I made friends who were also into music, got involved with
the school orchestra and other musical activities, and my interest became
self-sustaining -- I didn't require the parental "stick" anymore.

I do think that my early positive experiences with instrument-playing
were of crucial importance in sustaining my interest in later years.  I
*knew* it could be fun; I'd experienced it that way at the beginning.
The musical atmosphere in the home was also important.

People are dealt different amounts of musical talent when they're
conceived, and there's nothing they can do about it -- I happen to
believe that too.  But I think that lots of people, with a broad range of
that particular commodity, can develop the capacity to enjoy making
music and impart enjoyment to others, if the environment is right.

I envy you. I studied violin from age 8 to about 13, when rebelliousness
or girls or whatever, led me to quit. There was no music in my childhood
home except "big bands" on the radio. I came to appreciate classical
music on college, and built a record collection, etc. I suppose the 
closest I came to overcoming the personal barrier to performance was when
I built a harpsichord because it was my favorite instrument. I even played
"at" it for several years, but without talent (or guidance) never got
good at it, and it has fallen fallow (though it still occupies a corner
of the living room). Now, I am involved in so many other things, I hardly
notice this big symbol of my lack of success (which this discussion has
more forcibly pointed out to me).

So, how much do you want to pay me to take that dust collector off your hands,
Rane?

I can't part with it (it does get dusted biweekly). I've offered to
accompany my daughter on her flute. I say, she is just learning, and
playing things like the Victors, and In the Gloaming...I can wait a
little. But now that this is being talked about, I may already be
too late! So, what do I give up, to get time to practice? Grex?

My musical experience is similar to Remmers.
In some ways.

I grew up around music.  My mom played piano (adequately), and guitar,
my sister played cello, we sang around the paino or guitar, There was
a lot of music on the radio or record player all the time - classical
, folk, big band, some jazz, pop, show tunes... Mom was a big Pete Seeger
fan who became one of my early idols.

I was always encouraged to sing and make music.  Mom says I ran around
singing musicals at disgustingly cheerful high pitched tones early in
the morning... wonder how I survived? ;-)  
My parents LET me take piano a lot but I quit a lot too.  It tended to
bore me the way it was taught (lots of emphasis on playing stupid
songs I didn't want to learn).  But it was always my decision.
I rented a sax and took sax in 5th grade, when I got to
6th grade I got into choral music in a big way and never looked back.
Though I still play lots of instruments adequately.

I think the biggest factors in my love of music are-
encouragement
support
parents who MADE music with me
exposure to a wide variety of music (and my parents actually listened to
        my music too as I discovered things like the Beatles etc).

I can see how talent (a tricky concept) can certainly factor into
how frustrating it is to learn an instrument but I have
worked with a lot of people musically who honestly didn't think
they could sing - I've had very good success teaching them by starting
with BREAKING DOWN the years of evil teachers that said "You sing
as quietly as possible ok?" or "I think you should find something
other than music for a hobby." etc.  That makes me FURIOUS!
There are very very few people who are genuinly tone deaf.
Most people CAN enjoy making music at least for fun.

The point about finding a good teacher is excellent too!
A music teacher for a child should be one they are comfortable
working with, one who can teach them but even more important in the
beginning- one who makes the music fun.  (that is true for adults too!
I always remind people that just like anything- you are a consumer
with a voice teacher, if they aren't helping you- find another teacher!

Also- one last important thing-  get them a decent instrument.
When a child is very young- babies for example, or up to about 2-3,
they can enjoy banging on almost anything - so at that stage a
really cheap plastic guitar or uke or kitchen pan or whatever
is probably fine.  But when they begin to show an interest
in actually trying to sit down and learn get a decent instrument.
That doesn't mean you need to spend a lot of money.
Go someplace like Elderly Instruments in lansing where reliable
salespeople can help you find something within your budget.
A bad isntrument makes learning very frustrating.

ok... I've rambled on enough... Hope that helps some Valerie.

This is a wonderful item, Valerie.

Rane, I have no suggestions as to how you'd find the time for it
but something that might again instill enthusiasm is if you were
to now, as an adult, start taking weekly lessons with a good
instructor.  Something just for you - a fresh look at an old
friend.

Do you know any harpsichord teachers that could put up with an "adult
beginner" (the most difficult, recalcitrant, obdurate student, of the lot)?

re#23:  Good teachers

You hit on a very important point.  Both my brother and I had a teacher that
was more a friend of the family than a teacher.  Now, I play in the big band
with him as a peer and see him once a week.  Having a teacher and a friend
in one person is great for learning, and picking up a lifelong friend,
regardless of the topic.  Now granted, music lends itself to socializing
after-academia better than most subjects, but nonetheless...

Pick a good teacher that your kid likes.

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 I think that probably music around the home is the most important thing.. my
father used to (and still does) play the piano all the time, also the many 
other instruments we have around the house. I don't know if this was a factor,
but the radio was always on classical music, my brother and I didn't
even discover rock music 'till I was about in 4th grade. I always loved 
pretending to play things with my father on the piano, and made up my own
songs, and had my father put the names of the notes on the keys of the piano. 
I was afraid to take lessons at first (had heard bad stories from my mother abo
ut her piano teacher) and once I took them I felt like quitting sometimes, but
found that when my mother got all upset and wanted me to keep on taking them
I said I was going to quit, but when my father said "No, just let her quit if
she really wants to. No use in taking them if she doesn't want to." I switched
around and didn't want to quit anymore. So could just be an attention-getting
thingy. I think that you may just have to work through that stage, but don't
really make a fuss about things. Let the child know that it's their decision. 
Also, one thing that might inspire them to keep on working through the times
when they want to quit is to make them tell the teacher themselves... if they'
e too scared to make the move themselves, eventually they'll start liking it. 
Though you have to have something in the first place. I know people who are
very determined to play well and work hard and so on but somehow they just
don't have any musicality and it doesn't work. 
  so, perhaps just letting the child decide whether or not they want to play
the instrument is the important thing. And being forced to practice never
works, unless you are able to stop forcing after a short time. Also getting a 
good instrument is VERY important. You won't enjoy playing music until you
can make sounds you like. 

Getting a good instrument is important because its very frustrating if you
know you can do it but the instrument is the impediment.  Tends to cut down
on moral.

Getting a good instrument can also be a real drag if your child likes
to be careless...that's how my cornet got all dented and scratched.
25 years of taking care of that instrument, keeping it clean and free
from dents was all laid to waste in less than 6 months.  All depends on
the maturity of the child (and their propensity to be careless).

Re #30:
So get the child a good instrument, but not *your* good instrument, or one
that's going to make you cry if the child accidentally destroys it.

This is rule #1 that cannot be over-emphasized: GET-A-GOOD-QUALITY-INSTRUMENT!
The first mistake is: "Well I don't know if he's really going to like
playing this thing, and I don't want to spend alot of money only to see
the damn thing rot in a closet somewhere. So I'll just buy a cheapo one 
until we see if he has any talent."

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There are some very gifted kids that will learn to
play a cigar box with rubber bands stretched on it, but a bad or poorly
made instrument will make it very hard for the student to produce anything
that sounds good, that will *encourage* him to keep playing.

If you are serious about this, spend the bucks to get a reasonable quality
instrument. If he does give up, a decent instrument can ussually be resold
for close to it's original cost, sometimes *more*. A cheapo instrument is
just good for kindling.

,

  I have some friends who, though they can be very musical and talented on the
violin, have bad violins that sound like dying sheep _however_ you play them
and so are ready to quit. It's a terrible discouragement not to be able to make
beautiful sounds. I know that for a long time the only reason I kept on playing
the violin was because I believed that once I learned how to do virbrato, I 
would like the soulnds I made. That was what motivated me. So really follow
#31, because otherwise the point of making music will be defeated and so will
any drive to make beautiful music, because it seems impossible.

Don`t whatever you do say `Your going to wish you kept taking lessons
someday' to a child who wants to quit.  Mom said it and she was right
but I had to try to prove her wrong, now I`m 30 yrs old and taking piano
lessons.  

I agree that music around the house is important.  I just love jazz
Dad used to play good jazz on Sundays and now I hope to become a jazz
singer.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to rent a good quality instrument for a
year or so.  A lot of good instrument shops will allow a percentage of the
rental towards purchase if the child decides to keep playing and you want to
buy it.  If the child decides to drop lessons and no longer play you are not
out the total cost of an expensive instrument.  We did this for one of my
sisters when she wanted to take saxaphone lessons.  She only took them for a
few months before she got frustrated and quit.  Another sister and a brother
took flute lessons, she still plays.  Mom and Dad rented her flute for the
first year before purchasing it.  They did the same with my brother only they
rented it for a little longer than the first year which proved to be a good
idea since he had to choose between band and football in middle school and
chose football.  He never was as dedicated to the flute as my sister obviously
was so they were out about 10% of the cost of the flute while he had fun with
it for a while, rather than be out the total cost of it and having it sit
unplayed.  When I wanted to take clarinet lessons, we borrowed my uncle's
for the two years I played (I mainly gave it up because my fingers were too
small and kept getting caught in the keys and other interests began to take
priority cause they didn't cause pain).  STeve bought me a good quality
recorder a few years ago that has the same fingering as the clarinet.  I
fully intend to find someone to give me lessons before too long.  I haven't
done much with it yet because the Christmas I got it was just before Kelly
Troldahl died.  We were going to learn to play together (she had one that she
had put away) and I couldn't bear to look at it for quite a while after she
died.  I think I can handle it now and know that she wouldn't want me to
give the idea up forever.

I strongly agree with those who suggest getting a good instrument
for a beginner.  True, it is a gamble spending a chunk of money on
an unknown talent, but you're setting a child up to fail if you
don't allow him or her access to something capable of good sound.
Also, I've heard that good stringed instruments hold at least 100%
resale value unless they've been trashed through carelessness.  I
don't know if this applies to the brass and woodwind instruments.

Not too long ago I moved from the guitar to the cello.  I had
learned to play on a Martin guitar and knew what a difference it
made in the learning curve.  So when I went cello hunting I was
looking for an instrument comparable to a Martin guitar.  I also
was not going to feel badly if I gave the cello a year and decided
not to continue.  Afterall, the worst that would happen is that
the cello would be sold and I'd be a beginner again, on another
instrument (tuba?).  Who was it anyhow who said that trying
something new but not sticking with it is "failing"?  Most likely
someone who confused being safe and being stagnant.

I loved playing the piano when I was  child.  Before I started 
piano lessons (sixth grade) I had spent several years fooling around
with the old upright we owned, learning some songs (chopsticks,
Heart & Soul), and making up my own compositions.  My younger
sister actually started piano lessons before I did, which made
me somewhat jealous.  By the time I had been taking lessons for
three or four years, my mom started yelling at me for spending
*too* much time playing the piano.  She claimed I was using
practicing as a way to get out of doing more housework.  But
then again, my mom had some really nutty ideas when I was in
my teens...

My story is probably not typical.  I also played the flute and
guitar in my early teens, and I started voice lessons when I
was 16 (after having sung in choirs for several years).
Now I'm considering becoming a voice teacher.

I wasn't at all implying that students should play priceless instruments,
but they shouldn't have to deal with the frustrations of an instrument that
doesn't function properly or doesn't play well.

In saxophones, yamaha sets a good example.  They sell 3 grades of saxes:
student, intermediate and professional.  Each is sucessively higher in
price, performance and quality.  Each plays and "feels" roughly the same,
but the trend is for smoother, faster key action and a nicer sound and
finish.  The key action and sound is something that won't make a difference
to a student, but the nicer laquer work will.  the kid will live without the
nice brightwork.  As he/she gets better, you can "upgrade" to the next
level.  I went from the student to the pro and didn't really use the
capabilities of the pro until late high school.  You have to be really
comfortable with your playing before you'll notice faster key action and you
have to have very good control to hear any noticeable difference in the
sound.  *I* can out-play a student horn, but not many students can.  Matter
of fact, I played on a student horn until 10th grade when I started to
"outrun" the keys and the darn things were slapping me on their way back up.
The pro horns don't do that.

Is that at all clear?  There MUST be some peice of information in that pile
of memorabilia.  :)

Re #35:  Let's get one thing straight -- you are NOT taking up the tuba.

 Re 36  What piano student or player for that matter doesn't know Heart and 
Soul... I must have played that old thing *thousands* of times!!!

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss