When are children old enough to walk 4.5 blocks after dark by themselves?  Last
night Damon had a Cub Scout meeting at 7:15.  STeve and I couldn't make it and
had him walk.  The meeting is held at his school and the route he took is the
same route he walks too and from school every day, and is well lit.  One of 
the other mother's there wasn't comfortable with his walking in the dark and
went way out of her way to walk him home.

We are upset over this as we feel that Damon is old enough and mature enough
to make a 4.5 block walk at 8:15 pm over a route that he knows well.  The
SCA feels that 8 year olds are old enough to wander the event site without
having their hands held by parents (even at Pennsic with many square miles
of land and 8000+ people on site).  I don't like my authority over my child
taken away from me because some adult is afraid to walk after dark.  We have
had a long haul convincing Damon that there is no reason to be afraid of the
dark and this person has just given him reason to believe that we are wrong.
After all, if Mrs. .... is afraid to let me walk alone, there must be something
for me to be afraid of.  We talked it over with each other and with Damon
before he left.  He was okay with walking home (and it was dark when he left
here and he got there okay so there shouldn't have been a problem getting
home).

I would not be upset if someone who lived in this area offered him a ride
home, or they walked together, provided that they didn't have to go out
of their way.  That is just a friendly gesture and he does walk with other
kids on the way home from school.  But this woman lived on the opposite side
of the school from us.

Are we out of line allowing a independant, self-sufficient 8 year old walk
4.5 blocks home from a meeting after dark?

43 responses total.

  I really don't think so. I probably would let my children (if I had them)
do it. 

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In my opinion you are absolutely not out of line.  (In my opinion the worst
thing about raising kids is well meaning but nosey neighbors!)

It depends on *which* blocks.  But it also does a child no harm to 
be reminded that he's not the only person with unreasonable fears.

here is another "when is" question.  I have a 3 year old
and a 2 year old; they are prob. ready for real beds
rather than cribs - I'm just not sure I'm
ready.  So far, they have not tried to climb
out on their own.    Any perils about making the move
later rather than sooner?

Only the danger of hurting themselves playing jungle gym, as far as I know--
but you might consider "transitional" beds when you do make the change.
It makes the transition easier if their first experience of a night
on a grown-up bed doesn't include a fall from the bed!

Emergency room staff see enough injuries due to cribs and beds
that one doctor I knew advocated cutting the legs off the crib
and as soon as the child was old enough to not need crib-style
confinement move to a twin mattress on the floor.  I agree.

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I had a bed for a while when I was a little kid that had some rather low
railings going around about half of it (the half where my head and upper
body were).  Those railings were enough for me never to fall out of it,
but not high or long enough to ever make me feel trapped in the bed. 
Since it was soon needed by my brother, who is two years younger than me,
I didn't keep sleeping in it all that long, moving to a bed fairly low off
the ground that didn't hurt when I fell out, but my brother kept using
that bed until sometime in the middle of second grade before passing it on
to a neighbor.

(becca here - I keep forgetting to switch to my real name - sorry)
I like the matress on the floor bit - Tori has learned
to not only climb out of her crib, but into her brother's, where
she gets stuck for some reason.

Thanks for the advice - now, any advice on keeping the kids in a "real" bed
when they don't want to stay?  cribs do have that advantage... sigh.

We moved our older son into a bed at about 2, so that he would be
willing to get out of it by himself at the appropriate time.
He had problems with keeping his balance and fell out of bed a lot
at first, but it was a low bed and a soft carpet so no big deal.
The younger one is still in the crib at just-turned-4, partly
because I like being able to tilt his sleeping surface when he has
respiratory infections & partly because the next step is to a bunk
bed (and we're not sure either boy belongs on a top bunk yet).
He cheerfully climbs in and out, sometimes using the handy chair
& sometimes ignoring it.
        Keeping them in their beds is a discipline issue.  We have
drawn the line in a different place, so that they stay in their beds
& call (& call .... & call ...  on bad nights).  I'm firmly negative
when the little one is just trying to manipulate me, but if it might
be a reasonable request I try to effect compromise (e.g. "Your body
is still on Illinois time, and excited besides, so you don't feel sleepy.
I won't stay in your room any more because talking to me is keeping
you awake, but I'll sit out on the stairs & practice my mandolin
so that you can tell I'm nearby.")

Some time around age 2, I forget which side of it, Timothy suddenly started
being willing to sleep anywhere BUT his crib.  He wasn't all that verbal yet,
so it took a while to figure out what was up.  Turns out, the big kids at
daycare use cots, he was in process of moving to a cot, and resented the crib.
He never did climb out.  Well, once we figured that out, we all went bed
shopping together (so he must have been over 2).  He climbed over LOTS of beds,
bunk, day and other, and finally at Acree's used furniture we found a marvelous
old sleigh bed which was a touch shorter and wider than standard twin and had
partial sides as scg described, so he didn't fall out TOO often.  Some, though.
Now he's in a top bunk and the bottom was removed to give more space in his
room.  When Gareth is done with the crib, I'd like to give him Timothy's bed,
but I don't know if it'll fit.  Oh well, cross that when we come to it. As to
staying in be, we did have to be pretty firm for a time, but in general he's
more inclined to ask us to come to him, which isn't always what we want either.

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I sort of do the same thing now.  When my bed is convenient I will sleep
there, but I certainly don't go out of my way to get to my bed.  I often
take naps on the floors of classrooms at school, and even occasionally on
the downstairs couches or the kitchen floor at home if I'm feeling too
tired to go upstairs.

I've been known to toss down a blnket "wherever".  I don't know why
exactly, but sometimes whn I have trouble sleeping in my bed, I'll have
no trouble sleeping on the couch or on the floor somewhere.

Hmm... this is kind of weird.
I usually sleep in my water bed, which I find EXTREMELY pleasing.
Sometimes I will sleep on the front room floor and enjoy it.
I can NOT sleep well in other people's homes usually, but
I sleep as well as, or better than, I do at home when I'm
in a good hotel.

By habit & choice, I normally sleep only in bed - occasionally on a couch,
but I don't usually find this too comfortable.  However, we're soon heading
into the time of year that may find me trying to sleep sitting up, when
my asthma makes me too uncomfortable to sleep lying down.

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As any sleep specialist will tell you, this means you need more sleep.
Period.

re #18  Guess that makes for an (un)interesting sex life... :)

re # 19:  as any sleep specialist will tell you, we *all* need more sleep!

Not quite, but yes, this is a problem of epidemic proportions in our culture.

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re; #23 --That sounds wonderful!  I wish I could try it.

And I never like to wake up in the am.  I dislike going to bed in the PM.  I
only like to sleep in my bed with *my* pillow but I have been known to fall
asleep on the couch while Jerry is watching a boring movie.  

Sorry to get back to the topic, but these are wierd times we live in.
children much older than eight are grabbed by total strangers almost
every day. And when they're grabbed, they usually don't come back alive.
People who stalk kids for a living can see a pattern (like walking to
a meeting at 7:15 pm every tuesday) and take advantage of it. 
Some stats: Out of 87 child abductions last year
                   21 were found alive
                   23 were found dead
                   43 never heard from again
*april '94 good housekeeping
If no-one is available to walk with a child, I feel that (despite their
protests) maybe one meeting can be missed without causing permanate
social damage.

On the other hand, those abductions are still very rare, and learning to
do things alone can have great benifits for kids.  I've been walking
around my neighborhood alone since I was about five, and I think that went
a long way towards helping me feel comfortable with doing things on my
own.  Yes kids might be safer always being accompanied by an adult, but
when you consider all the things that could possibly go wrong, there is no
way to protect kids against every possibility.

Abductions are rare, and are almost always by family.  Secondarily by
friends and acquaintances of the family.

I won't have an eight-year-old for another three months, but I
think that sometimes it can be important for a person that age
*not* to be treated as "a child".  Don't downplay real dangers
but don't magnify them either; nothing in life is perfectly safe.
(I also remember being 16 or 17 and walking home in the dark from a
part-time job: my parents felt that I was safer on the super-lighted
main street, but I *felt* a lot safer on the darker side street
where nobody ever whistled at me!)

Damon is now almost 11.  We are having problems with the school, of all places.
He has become ill at school a couple of times since it started.  First time I
was home, between contracts at work, with a very sore foot (dropped a 1x12 
on it a couple days before) and we had my dad over to help put down a new
bathroom floor.  I told them to just send him home as he only had a bit of an
upset stomach, nothing major.  I was told that it was against school policy
to "let a child walk home alone in the middle of the day with no other kids
on the sidewalk".  I blew up.  We live about 3 blocks from the school, he is
almost 11 and is in the fifth grade, he is also on the safety patrol and has
to walk to/from school "alone with no other kids on the sidewalk" so as to be
at his post before they start to school/after they have gone home.  This is
the 3rd school the kids have attended in the A2 school system and the first
time we have had this problem.  I informed the principal that I was the
child's parent and the one ultimately responsible for him and that if I said
for him to walk home he damn well better be allowed to walk home.  This to her
face as I had to walk (on the damaged foot) to the school to walk him home
(Dad's truck with the lumber was parked behine mine in the driveway).

A couple of weeks ago STeve got a call that Damon was ill (he had stayed home
the day before but said that he felt well enough to go in and wanted to).  He
told them to send him home and was fed the same line.  He hadn't kept the car
that day and had to take his (with its very bad transmission, just a day or
two before it actually kicked the bucket) to go fetch him.  He blew up even
better than I did.  They were informed that if they try this again, that we
will be contacting the school board since this has to be an arbitrary policy
concocted by the current principal (arbitrary as the other schools the kids
have gone to haven't had any such policy and were allowed to walk home if they
generally walked to school in the first place).  We have only asked for him
to be sent home when someone was here already, not like we wanted them to send
him home to be sick and alone.  If we had been out, at work or running errands,
whatever, we would have gone to pick him up on the way home to be with him.

It seems that everytime we try to get the kid to act in an independant and
responsible manner some "do gooding, we know better than you" adult steps in
a thwarts our efforts.  This type of reaction is going to cause a nation of
people that are afraid to step outside their own front door because someone
just might be out there to hurt them.  I flatly refuse to be kept a prisoner
in my own home to avoid the "just maybe" or "what if", or to allow my kids
to.  If I did what everyone says I should or tryed to avoid every situation
in which I might, possibly, came into danger I would never get out of bed
in the morning and would starve to death for lack of "safe" food.

I would bet the school sees this as a liablity issue even more than
a safety concern.  They feel they have no choice but to be heavy-handed
regarding who is responsible for a child and how that responsiblity is
transfered.  Can't say I blame 'em either.  It's that kind of a world.

Don't wait until it happens again to contact the school board (or
other appropriate official).   If they had objected to sending home
a *sick* child, it would make more sense; if there's any good
reason for the present policy, you should know what it is.

Whoa.  This item is much deader than a doornail.

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Who said I had to have a point?  I just thought that statement woul ellict
a response, and it did.

My point is on top of my head <says bjorn with a monty-python type maniacal
laughter following>

Our school system, with 100,000 kids willnot allow elementary, and
probably older kids to walk home outside of normal departure times.

It was the same way when I was a kid, in a different state.  It is
either a matter of school board rules, or state law, so you are not
likely to get any sympathy.  The idea is that a parent's convenience
is outweighed by a child's safety,which takes into consideration not
only the ordinarily safe walk home, but also any weirdos who might be
around, the fact that all kids were not given equally good judgment
or maturity, might take a detour or a ride with a stranger, get
hit by a car if they wander into the street, etc.

Going back to the original question of 3 years ago, I would not
let an 8 or even 11 year old walk after dark at night.  I live in a
lovely safe neighborhood, but I don't even let my 5th & 2nd graders
walk to school/home alone in daylight.  Some years back a girl in a 
similar neighborhood was abducted; a 10 year old girl on her bike,
on her way home from school.  Rosie passed her uncle's home and waved.
She never made it to her own house 2 blocks away.  

I am overprotective; but my kids lives outweigh the problems of
driving.  There's always a friend to help out.  As far as the
interference of a well meaning mom, I'd rather butt in and risk your
annoyance than to risk a kid's life.  But I'd do it without
offending a kid's pride, too ("I was heading your way...").

By the way, our local boy scout & girl scout rules require all
kids be released to responsible adults even after daylight 
meetings.  

In spite of me, my kids are not neurotic.  They know the chances of
harm are like 1 in a zillion, but I am not going to have them walk alone
and do other such things.  

I am going to hijack this item for a bit now, since it has been sleeping for
six years.  The item description fits, but the body of the item doesn't match
my situation.  Oh well, at least I'm not cutting into the middle of an active
conversation.

To recap... My little boy, Ryan, was born 11 weeks premature, at 2 pounds,
four ounces.  He did show evidence of having had a very minor brain bleed
(common in preemies) but it was not considered significant - no long-term
impact predicted.

My wife took him to the pediatrician this week, and an intern or student asked
a series of developmental milestone questions which Karen (my wife) kept
having to answer in the negative.  The intern/student also suggested we start
potty training.  

My son is 15 months old now, but if had been born on time, he would be 2.5
months younger.  His first eight weeks of life were spent 90% in an isolette.

I have had several great responses, most wisely suggesting testing for
developmental difficulty.  No one seems to think that potty training is the
right thing yet (and I whole-heartedly agree).  I have also had question about
Ryan's interaction, talking, etc.

Thanks, everyone for your input.  From talking to my wife after I posted, I
guess we are going to be visited sometime in the near future by someone from
the TIPS program which exists in our area (not sure what the acronym means).

My wife also said that the person asking all the questions and making
the potty training comments may have been a student.  The hospital we go to
is affiliated with Creighton University.  The questions/suggestions were not
made by our actual pediatrician.  Ryan's pediatrician seemed to be happy with
how he is doing overall.

Physically, he is still a little guy at 17 pounds, 10 ounces.  That is still
below the fifth percentile for his age.  He still has a fairly sizeable open
fontenelle, which indicates that his body may still be poised for a major
growth spurt.

He can crawl now, but he was late in doing so.  Only a weeks after he strted
crawling on his hands and knees, he began pulling himself to a standing
position and soon after was cruising around the room leaning on furniture.
He has a walk-behind toy which he is using with increasing success.  He no
longer falls down when he uses it, but he can not aim it, either.  He has a
few words (we think).  Da-da, Daddy and Ma-ma were the earliest and most
definite.  He frequently smiles at our aquarium and says a word that sound
like "ishie".  My wife refers to the fish as fishies, so I think he may be
imitating that.  When he sees my parents cat, he often says "kee!", which
could be "kitty" perhaps.  He enjoys a good game of "I'm gonna get you",
wlthough he sometimes runs toward rather than away.  he always laughs at this,
however.  We only recently tried teaching him to wave and clap.  He picked
both up easily once we actually tried, and now he claps and waves all the time
because he knows it gets a reaction out of us.  My mom then taught him
"patty-cake" which I didn't know until one day I was holding him and he was
doing the "roll it" part of the game (hands spinning around each other).

He does react to emotion.  He is somewhat jumpy, and things like loudly
creaking doors cause him to cry - they scare him.  Perhaps this is a sign of
the immature nervous system someone was mentioning.

I need to find out when we are to be visited by the TIPS folks.  I will keep
you posted.

For having had such a rough start he sounds like he's doing quite
well.  Still, I'm glad he's going to be tested as anything found
this early can be addressed with the best outcome.

I'd also mention to your pediatrician what was said during the
student examination.  I know they have to learn on someone but
I don't think they realize the anxiety involved with an interaction
such as what you described.  It's long been my belief that medical
students belong on short leashes for at least the first 3 years. ;-)

re the potty-training:  almost 50 years ago, when people were likely to be
much more rigid about such things, my sister-in-law trained herself at
about that age -- her mother had very little to do with it and sounds
a little surprised whenever the subject happens to come up.  That was
just a *very* fastidious little girl.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss