As we are discussing friendship(s) and their ins and outs in the 
Oathbound Conference, this aspect hasn't been explored yet.

Since all of us like to abide their time behind our keyboards,
and be on line, I'd say it's about time to see when on line
friends become real friends and how.

And if the on line acquaintanceship is altered into a 
real life interaction, has this changed to attitude towards
the othe rperson? Has it deepened it or was social interaction
a bit of a disappointment?
So, could it be more sensible to leave things at bits and bites,
or will the real thing remain most desired thing to do, 
no matter what?

153 responses total.

I've met lots of folks online these past thirteen years.  It's still a bit
of surprise to meet one of them face to face.  The nature of my life is
such that online relationships are more likely to endure: at least I get to
talk to the online people now and again.

The thing of getting to know someone online is that, when you like this online
person, the curiosity grows to be able to put a face to that person. This,
of course can be achieved by mailing (or snailing if that comes up) a picture,
but still it's only a two dimensional representation of a snap moment of that
person.
At times the desire to meet arrives.
As many grexers will testify I have done that by crossing the Atlantic (twice)
and meet up with Grexers. At that point the social interaction comes into
views, for by no means you can know whether you'll like each other no matter
how much you like each other online. Still, there lies a challenge, as far
as I'm concerned, even when consiering things can end up with mentioned
disappointment.

In one case I started emailing with this woman and after two months we
decided to meet. The second time we met we became an item. A short lived item,
but very intense, and I still don't regret it. This case was a Dutch woman
working in Prague.

In another case a woman (seems very much I am on the dating prowl on line,
but this is not so, as I will tell you later on) mailed me in reaction to my
homepage, which is down currently but that's anothe rpoint. Anyway three days
later she was in Amsterdam and we had a night out, this was the beginning of
a friendship as we also said hello to the new millennium together. Since I
had vowed to do this at crossing the threshold I couldn't see any other option
than ask her to marry me. Fortunately she took it for the joke it was. (heheh)

Third case, also in reaction to my homepage, I got mail from an Indian guy.
One week later I showed him and his wife Amsterdam and hasd dinner together.
God, was he rich!

case four and five. meeting grexers. In case five I speny three weeks with
the perfect host. In that stretch of time she has made me feel welcome beyond
measure, and we also did a little bit of sightseeing which made us end up in
among others, the Grand canyon and Las Vegas.

Concluding I can say that actually meeting people on line hasn't lead to
severe disappointment, and I can tell you that being on line has, and still
does, mean a lot to me, as it is an excellent opportunity to get to learn a
lot about other cultures. In fact, it has broadened my views.

Living up to the concept of the world being a global village is in that
prospect simply a logical result of it.

So, with a few exceptions, in most cases my intuition hasn't failed me when
I decided that when I like this on line character I will also like the rwal
person.

        The explanation that the online persona is different han the person
behind it is largely hooah.  It is possible for a person to display only
certain facets of their personality online or in person, or to percieve
situations differently enough to be nervous offline but confident online, but
all of these things are a part of the person's overall range of behaviour.

Yup yup yup.  Plus, you don't get a lot of voice intonation online, so
confusion during communication can abound.

Confusion that can lead to too much or too little emphasis on what is 
said.  That in turn can lead to a whole bunch of misunderstandings.

For the most part I've really had good experiences meeting other 
grexers.  But then, overall, grexers tend to be a pretty 'sane' group. 
(real grexers, not just the folks that pop up once and then never 
appear again).  AOL people... that's a whole other story... some of the 
people who talk to me in real life know what I'm talking about here... 
<grins at John and Sarah>

Overall... there are some people I talk to online that I have no real 
desire to meet in real life, for whatever reason.  Others I would love 
to meet.

        For the most part, I'm different on the counts you've listed.  

        I haven't had the greatest experiences meeting GREXers.  There are,
of course, several very noteworthy exceptions, but most of the GREX functions,
and especially those without one factor or another to mitigate who shows up,
have been fairly scary.  The best explanation that I can come up with is that
they're like being in a group of people who all want to talk - but not a one
of them wants to talk to each other.

        I've had similar experiences with some of Pagandom and almost all of
sci-fi fandom.  I'm guessing that I really don't have the social program to
deal with some kinds of people.

And social programs differ.  but I do know what you mean.

True.
Maybe for me as an 'outsider' from a basically different culture it is
different. My meeting up with people had lead to interesting encounters to
say the least, without any intention of being offensive.
It can be unnerving to meet some on line character that is entirely different
from what you expected, for better or worse. But without doing it you'll
always wonder what and how. I'd rather take a chance.

        Can you elaborate, Rick?

You won't hear names from me.
It all boils down down to chemistry in the end when real life contact is
established. With some people you connect, with others you don't.
That part of interaction lacks in on line contacts. Then again one could view
it like this: being on line at least doesn't suffer from intereference between
people, like coughs, tics etc, the sound of the voice that turns out to be
something entirely different etc.
Another thing  that can be unnerving is this: one always tends to picture
somebody one is on line with. If the other party turns out to be very unlike
the mental picture, this can be unnerving.

LIme I said, it isn't my aim to be offensive, it just is a fact social life.
IThe challenge of meeting on lin epeople remains.

Meeting people with whom you converse with online most certainly changes your
perspective, in many realms. Sometimes, you end the relationship entirely,
including the online part. Sometimes, meeting in person deepens the
relationship, and you both benefit from it, both online and in life. Meeting
people from the online world has definately changed my perspective on many
things, and shown me that some things that I thought were true, are not. My
eyes were opened quite wide, and I don't think I would have gained the insight
I have in such a short amount of time without those experiences. While I do
not regret them, I do not wish to repeat them. Anne is right when she says
that people from AOL are, as a whole, QUITE different from the Grex online
crowd.A lot of them have very...interesting (an attempt to not be rude and
close-minded) perspectives on life, how you treat others, and how they
themselves should be treated. I have, however, met two from AOL who will be
friends for the duration of my life, and who have helped me through some very
rough times in my personal growth and development. In both cases, meeting in
real life strengthened our respective relationships, and enriched our online
interaction. Meeting others from the online world definately forced me to look
at some things, and to admit that they existed, which spun off into some
valuable personal growth, and a broadened awareness of the world, and how
different we all truly are.

        Everyone who is somewhere is there for one reason or another.  The
reason may not be what they say it is, and they may not even be conscious of
the reason.

        Speculating as to what the reasons are, either for certain people, or
for groups, can be interesting, but shouldn't be taken too far.

Exactly my point.

*perks a confused brow*

It seems to me that we attach too great a mystery factor to meeting
those with whom we have established online relationships.  Certainly the
following is oversimplified, but consider that the interaction between
people is all about the media of communication that they have in common.
 

On line, we have words, and sometimes pictures, but there is much that
is absent.  When on line becomes r/l, then the bandwidth of
communication increases dramaticly as tone, gesture, expression, body
language, dress, body odor, hair style... are all added to bare words.

Consider also that we of the net are in fact heir to a long-standing
cultural tradition wherein folk became acquainted at a distance in
social circumstances that varied from arranged marriages to two rulers
relying on diplomats to carry out the guarding of their interests by
proxy.  We've done this sort of thing for a long time, the net only
changes the means, not the problem of distant communication versus
personal interaction.

Excellent point, Chris.

I think we've covered this point, but people can also present 
themselves much different online then they do in real life.  For 
instance, take someone who has a learning disability and can't spell to 
save thier life- someone might think them dumb- yet in real life they 
are very articulate.

And I've lost where my point is going (hazards of grexing from work) 
I'll try to elaborate my point later, if I can find it again. (heh, 
interesting typo made point-pint... I think elaborating on a pint later 
would be good as well...)

A pint can cause typos...  ;-)

        "Bandwidth of communication" - a reference to Tor Norretranders, by
any chance?

        The point is well taken that online communication is one *mode* of
communication, and that one person may communicate very well in, say,
individual conversation, but may communicate very poorly online, the same
way that they may communicate poorly when speaking to a group or when
writing a formal letter, but be careful not to stretch the point to the
degree in which Willard does to justify hundreds of garbage posts in Agora.
Whatever the mode of communication, whatever the persona that a person
choosed to adopt or to role play, the thoughts and words that proceed from
their mouth, or their fingers, in this case, are their own and at best a
subset of their overall personality.  Someone who's a twit in Agora,
hypothetically speaking, has some part of the twit in them at all times,
even if they don't express it.

This much is true.  There are times I'm misunderstood in conferences, and this
can happen in real life.  The difference is that real life is in "real time",
and I can explain it another way in a matter of seconds.  Online, it may take
three days because of posts after mine elaborating on the misinterpretation,
along with my clarification.  So, online I may appear to be flighty and always
contradicting myself.  In real life, this doesn't happen much, if at all.

I've met a LOT of people in real life after talking to them online.  More often
than not, they're about the same, only the gestures, mannerisms, way of
speaking, and eye contact is quite varied from what I expect.  It always takes
me a while to get used to it since my mental image of them has to be
reconstructed, to a point.  It's very strange, but can be very cool (as in
cases where we've remained friends for years).  I've known some grexers in real
life for five years, so I don't consider them online friends anymore.  ;-)

        For example, Sarah is properly formatted IRL. :)

Was that response not formatted?  <confused look>

I think he means that your best formatted for irl rather than online. 
<grins>  Which isn't an insult by any means.

Me... well, I know I've given a few people the wrong idea online, both 
of who I am and of my temper. <chuckles> That also happens irl too.  
Though irl I appear to be more of a doormat and online I am much 
feistier (is that a real word?).  I think the 'truth' (if you will) is 
more of a combination of me.  

Both irl and online present limited views of a person.  Only time spent 
in either 'place,' or perhaps both in some cases, can expand upon that 
view.

I don't really know how I'm different online since I feel like I'm being
myself.  People who know me IRL may know of differences.  I'm just as feisty, I
get pissed just as easily, I speak my mind as quickly, I argue as much, I flirt
the same way, but maybe there's some element that I'm missing in one or the
other.  <shrug>

Anne - that's what I thought he meant too, but I wasn't sure.  =)

<giggles> You finish sentences here... and online it's impossible to, 
just by reading, get an impression of how fast you talk... Especially 
when you go into Birdyspeak. <grins>

        No, I meant her response wrapped off the screen, looking somewhat
jerky to read - it's easy without gate as an editor.

Oh... looked fine to me.. <grins>

Backtalk does weird stuff to my responses.

Good point about Birdyspeak, though...

<grins> Thanks!

I'm using backtalk too... I wonder if that's why it looked okay?

(it's been a long time since I've given any great thought to where
my friends come from. they're either friends, or they're not. that's
not to say that I don't have a distinction in my mind, but rather the
distinction hasn't really been non-obvious. the only time I can 
remember thinking about it this year was when I "suddenly" remembered
I'd known eeyore since high school. otherwise, I have my three 
categories: high school, college, Grex.)

(I tend to get picky about *how* I keep in touch with friends. I've
been unusally bitchy as of late about some of my friends in college
who think nothing of forwarding the latest joke in their inbox, but
but can't be bothered to remember my damn phone number, even though
it's a local call. I think it has a lot to do with my having had
e-mail for *much* longer than the average college student, having
gone through the phase of dashing off thoughtless e-mails for the 
sheer novelty of having e-mail, and having come to the conclusion
that e-mail should be functional.)

(now I'm pribly going off on a tangent, which tends to happen when I
have lots of homework to do and no incentive to actually do it. but
I'll continue. within the past few years, I've become a big fan of
picking up the telephone to call someone and say "hi", or sitting 
down to write a postcard. I tend to use e-mail for this only if I
don't have any other way to get in touch with people. during the 
mid-90's [God, I'm getting old] I played a game with my friend Leah
from high school. whenever I would take a big trip, or several 
successive small ones, I would send her a postcard from the place,
but not necessarily about the place. I remember one month in 
particular where I sent her a postcard telling her I'd run away to
join the circus. each postcard from that point on was written as if
each new destination were a new experience in my life with the circus.
I also recall she thought I was very odd, but that's beside the point.
most recently, I sent a postcard from Toronto to my friend Russ to 
tell him I'd flunked out of school, "just like [he] always said I
would," and was trying to make a new life with my Hungarian fianceé
Olga. he *almost* fell for it.)

(on the flip side, I have a friend from college who's never called
or visited my new apartment. I briefly lost track of her at one
point this summer, so I sent her an e-mail. she replied almost
immediately, and I swear it's the most personal e-mail I've ever
received from her. we've now settled into a routine where I mail her
a postcard, and she sends a reply by e-mail. as I said, I'm picky.
I really don't know why, but carrying on a conversation by e-mail
with someone to whom I'm used to speaking in person just seems...
wrong.)

(I think my self-imposed inability to conduct a conversation by
e-mail has caused me to lose touch with a few people, or at least
keep them at a further distance than I'd intended. I know several
people who are perfectly delighted if I remember to send them e-mail
three times a year.)

(crap. I've completely lost myself now. ok... online vs. offline?
was that the topic? I can count the number of Grexers I've seen this
year on two hands, I think. I know I can count the number I made a 
point of seeing on one hand. when you get right down to it, what do
people who use Grex, or any other discussion system/group, have in
common? I remember when I was going through my meet-a-new-Grexer
phase, I didn't really have much reason to meet people except for the
sake of meeting them. that's not always a bad thing, but not finding
something else tends to limit further rendezvous. there are the people
with whom I've struck uncommon bonds based on something, even if I 
don't know what it is. then there are the Chinetters, but that's a
whole 'nother ball of porn^H^H^H^Hwax. I suppose that meeting someone
who I've already met online, but with whom I haven't really found 
anything in common, has lost its appeal. hell, getting together with
people I've already met but with whom I don't have anything in common
with has lost its appeal.)

(sometimes I feel really old, as if my biological clock is ticking
faster than it used to tick. save my time, skip the people who aren't
doing anything for me, move on to the new people. I really feel that's
a terrible way to treat people, but I do it anyway.)

(I don't perceive any difference between how I am online and offline,
at least as far as Grex goes. I'm mostly introvert, to varying degrees
depending upon where I am in life, and I don't really talk just to
talk. I *do* listen, and I suppose I gravitate towards people who
either like the sound of their own voice, or who simply appreciate an
attentive audience. I don't say more on Grex than I do in real life.
I know there are people who will disagree with that statement, but
hear me out. I'm someone who, if I have something I *want* to say, it
gets said, regardless. it doesn't matter to me who's in the room. yet,
if a conversation is going on, and I don't really have anything to 
add, I don't. I simply listen. I do the same thing on Grex: I read
*much* more than I bother responding, and it's not often that I 
sit around taking the time to enter a response of this length, 
although, as I said somewhere earlier [I think], I should be doing
something else, and I'm avoiding it.)

(FWIW, I'm using Backtalk too, at least for the moment.)

I think we have been elaborating on this for some time now and most/all 
of us agree on the subject.
The major downside to online friendship are essential things like 
eye-contact and body language and vaguer things like chemistry or no.

On the other hand I can appear to be much more eloquent when I am 
online, by typing as I have got more time to contemplate how to put 
things than I can ever hope to be in real life. As you all know this 
stems from not being a native english/american speaker.

As for personality, like Sarah I like to believe that I am online
basically the same person as I am in real life. Maybe I tend to be more 
reserved irl, although I hate it. But the people that met me can vouch 
for that.

I think it has more to do with the language barrier.  You'd mentioned having a
harder time speaking English than writing it, so it makes sense that you'd be
quieter and more reserved in social situations in America.

        Everyone's the same IRL that I've met thus far.  You just have to know
them in person first ...

(hmm. Carson! is going to be pretty disappointed once he finds out
he's a balding drunken overweight pedophile in real life too.)

Just to put my 2 cents worth in, I might have a different opinion.
(although I highly doubt it, and which our beloved Anne will probably 
inform me)

I used to have this list on my wall.  I was so proud of meeting people
off of Grex.  It got up into the 70's or so.  More now, if I cared to do it
again.  Problem is, most of those peoplke I didn't click with.  I think that
people are VASTLY different online and in person.  Not all, but most of the
people I have met.  Those I knew in high school, they were the same, and those
I met before I was on grex, they also were in that "same" category.  Frankly,
some of those people I didn't want to associate offline, and neither online
anymore.  

A couple of cases, to show the point, the names have been left out and details
are kinda vague here, but one user I had talked to a lot, who also sent me
things like birthday cards, and stuff like that, turned out to be a violent
psychotic who had been in an institution twice, and jailed for attacking and
we talked daily, and I come to find out later, that he was only 15 and had
lied to me for over a year.  Some I have met I thought were truly cool and
intelegent online, I have thought were just plain annoying and pretencious
in person.

Now, I am not all sunshine and light either.  I'm more than sure that people
find me different online than in person.  And I have no dilusions of grandur
that people also find me annoying, et al, too.  Grex gave me that opportunity
to upen up a new side of myself, and while it isn't a fake part of myself,
I try and be honest with those I speak with, but I don't do or say HALF the
things in person as I do online.  I think I'd die on my feet if those things
came out.  

I have been, however, on the recieving end of people cutting off
communications.  I don't know if anyone of you remember our Aussies from '94.
God I loved those guys, and I got very emotionally wrapped up in one in
particular.  And he did too, or so I thought.  That is, until I sent some
photos that he requested, and because I am not what he pictured in his mind,
that was it.  What had been a several hours, several times a day, 7 days a
week, and phone calls thing, stopped.  It broke my heart, frankly, and that
was my fault, for getting so emotionally involved.  I have had some
relationships disolve from being friends in high school to see you on grex
to never seen at all.  

I have had good experiences too, don't get me wrong, but I think those are
the people I would have been friends with if I had never heard of grex, rather
than because of or with grex.  I can name people here.  Like my boy Lestat.
Scared the life out of my mother and he kinda sounded like Penn Gillette from
Penn and Teller, but he was great.  MDW, popcorn, jazz, gypsi, jiffer, and
others, I would have wanted as friends anyway.

And anne?  Well, she's anne.  always has been, always will be, take her
or leave her, she's her.  Although WE haven't always got along, heaven
forbid!, we always manage to end up together again.  So that's friendship.
And maybe love too.  You love people not inspite of their faults, but rather
recognize them and love them with those faults.  Maybe that's why, at least
in my experience, things don't work out with meetings.  Being online isn't
really real, it's in your mind, or your heart, and when you talk on the phone
even, it's not somehow tangible.  Until that first meeting.  Perhaps clees
was lucky.  There was such a short interval between first contact and meeting,
there wasn't a lot of time to get those preconcieved notions and attachment
to those ideas.  But when you have days, weeks, months, and sometimes years
built up, they can be hard to let go.

Have I rambled?  I think I have rambled.  I think I made a point, but since
my telnet can't scroll back, I haven't any clue.  Be gentle?

oops.  Some of that job mangled in one of the paragraphs.  It was 2 differnt
people i was talking about, not one (in the bad category).  sorry

        There are a lot of checks and balances in social communication that
are truncated online, probably the most notable of which is that if you're
looking for a partner, the first thing that you're able to observe is what
a potential candidate looks like, whereas online it's much more difficult
(barring odd photos on Llanarth's page for GREX).  It's something a lot of
people have run into, I'm sure.

        Another common one is crossing cultural values.  It's very easy to
idenfity someone who is unfamilliar with Americans and American English in
a face-to-face meeting, and it's not so easy to identify someone with such
an unfamilliarity online.  Therefore it's harder to notice that those peoplew
ill have differnt values, cultural assumptions, and so forth.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...  when people become attracted to,
or even "fall in love" online, they are attracted to/in love with a *perceived
image*.  I refuse to date someone I don't know in real life, and I'm basing
this on my experience and others'.

Agreed.  And what's worse, though, are personals.  Luckily Grex doesn't have
these, to my knowledge, but at least on here, we party or are in the cf's,
rather than just advertizing on the auction block.  Some people have had great
success, I'm sure, but I think my fear figures into my above said rejection.

A short interval?
But dear ashke (sun if you will), what then would you define a short 
lapse of time for knowing somebody online before actually meeting when I
 have been around here since late 1994? (then again I am living in
Central European time, heh heh)

Re #36: You have said it John. But I didn't realize I stood out so much 
in the crowd. or were you referring to my length? (which isn't that 
tall, actually)

Re #37: I can testify for that Sarah. Well, we fell in love after we 
met, but still. The image was there. Let me confide in this: I met her 
through a dating service. So I had my share in that field. I tend to 
second ashke on this point.

If if only I were rich ...

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss