This is where we can put agenda items for the June 13 Board
meeting.
        I'll start.

        Call to order.

        Approve agenda.
        
        Set time and place of next meeting.
        
        President's report.

        Treasurer's report.

        Discussion of System downtime, rebuild, and related issues.

45 responses total.

Discussion of priorities for improving web interface.

(Rex, it would be good to have you at the meeting)

I'll do my best to try to get there.

Where is the meeting?

My house.  Email for directions.

(I'm curious if the Bylaws technically allow for discussions to occur here..
would it be "legal" for the board to actually make any decisions without them
being discussed in the M-Net policy conference?)

I vote "no".
If for no other reason than preventing users from accusing the BoD of making
"underhanded" decisions while M-Net is down.

        *Automatic* extension of patronships and memberships by the number of
days M-net is/has been down.  Only explicit refusal of extionsion will be 
used.  E-mail will be sent to all patrons and members to allow them to 
reply to the e-mail that they *do not* want the extension.  This will be
keep quiet--that is, while it can not be totally private, the idividual
actions will not be posted.
        Please condsider.

I think that is fair.

I think we'll probably do automatic extensions for everyone, honestly.  It
makes the most sense.

As for whether we're meeting the public discussion requirement, we
aren't, except for issues that had already been discussed in the
policy.cf prior to the downtime.  Hmm. The Board should meet anyway if
only to all be in one place with staff and discuss the downtime and how to
minimize it in the future, but if we have to make any Board-type decisions
on things we hadn't already discussed on M-Net we would have to use the
emergency motion method and they'd have to genuinely be time-critical.

Perhaps at some point in time, the bylaws should be amended to allow for
policy discussions to occur on Grex in this conference in the event of a major
m-net outage.

Worth thinking about.

   Allow me to offer a dissenting viewpoint on refunds.  M-Net is not
a for-profit entity with a product.  It is a tiny non-profit, eeking
out an existence trying to offer services to many, with incredibly
meager funding.  For M-Net to offer refunds because it was down means
that there is a mindset here akin to the pay-for-services model, and
I find that inconsistent with the reality of M-Net.

   No one should ever give money to a system like M-Net (or Grex) and
*expect* uptime, etc.  These systems are't professionally run, even
though professionals run both systems, and overall DO manage near
commercial uptimes as of late.  But when things get bad, it is often
the case that real world constraints on the staff are going to impose
time delays that translate into increased down time for the system.
Thats just life.  None of the staff on either system want that extra
time but sometimes that can't be avoided.

   In this particular case for M-Net, the machine was vandalized, the
hardware wasn't simply across town, it wasn't available 24 hours as it
was at the New Center, and the decision was made to upgrade the hardware
during this time.  This has been an awful time for M-Net, very likely
the worst since the Altos died 7 years ago, compounded with the extra
effort needed to switch to new hardware plus a new op system.  The
staff on M-Net deserve a hearty round of applause for dealing with all
this.  It takes time however, and the disaster in front of them could
not have been much worse.

   There may have been a time in the past when M-Net offered a rebate
on downtime but that was then and this is now: M-Net doesn't have the
money to offer this, not really--yes there is some money in the bank
now, but I'd sure like to see that remain in the bank rather than chip
away at it offering a two-week rebate (or whatever it is).  M-Net has
needed to move away from the pay-for-service model for quite some time.
It doesn't have to continue that model, especially now.

"extensions" are definately something we'll look at.

While it's true, that M-Net is indeed a non-profit company and does not
guarantee any level of uptime, there is still an expectation of service.

People (generally) don't buy memberships and patronships because they believe
that $5 and $10 specifically is the "perfect donation". If people were
"donating" purely for the warm fuzzy feeling they got, we'd have significantly
more obscure donations. 

People can yammer on about how M-Net is not a "pay-for-service" system until
their fingers are numb. The simple fact is that "member" and "patron" are
different levels of access that are purchased. 

This response has been erased.

There's no point in offering service (paid or otherwise) if you aren't
going to take it seriously, and if your users can't rely on you.

I'm embarrassed that we've been down so long.  It's bad for our reputation.
It shouldn't have happened, because we should have had a plan for responding
to problems in Livonia more efficiently than we did.  We're installing a new
machine, which will be more reliable and more secure, and we'll work together,
Board and Staff, to try to prevent this from happening in the future.  We want
our users to trust us, even though we hope that they also realize that we're
all volunteers with "real" jobs as well.

Part of that trust is dealing fairly and reasonably with our users.  That
includes pro-rated refunds for anyone who absolutely insists, though
extensions are better.  I don't ever want to see M-Net tell one of its
users "Tough shit; we're a small non-profit, so we won't try to make
things right for you."  But I personally think that extensions are both
fair and reasonable, and will hopefully be sufficient for most people.

i always have trouble with extentions.  i don't have enuff hair on the top
of my head to anchor them and using duct tape is just plain tacky.

  <HUGS>

Re #17:  Well, we'll see if we can help you.  Have you tried a glue gun?

that was not verry nise, joey.

M-net doesn't want to let go of the fee-for-service model.  *shrug*
I've argued that most of those giving M-net money these days are 
doing it from a spirit of donation anyway, because the service M-net
is selling has little value in the modern Internet marketplace.
 
Extending memberships/patronships is a nice gesture, and M-net's going to need
all the goodwill it can scrape up when it finally goes back on line.

The point, Ken, is that we want to go out of our way to provide good service
to our users.  It doesn't matter whether we think we're "fee-for-service" or
not.  What matters is that our users don't feel like we've ripped them off,
justifiably or no.

So...uh...when can we expect the new M-Net?
The "update" page has all of one entry, which was entered on the 7th.

I understand that people have real jobs. I understand that the damage was
substantial. But we still have people discussing which operating system to
put on it. 

Could someone provide even a rough estimation of when M-Net will be back
online? "It's going to be bigger and faster" is getting to be a useless
moniker, when nobody knows *when* the bigger and faster system is going to
be online.

People may be discussing it here, but they're trying to get it back up
elsewhere.  There have been some problems.  I'd anticipate around another week
before it's back up and usable.  I wish I could give you better news, but I
don't want to set expectations too high.

Unfortunately there is an immense gap between "we want to go out of our way
to provide good service to our users" (seldon in resp:22) and 
the two-to-three week outage anticipated in resp:24.  (We're at Day 11
now, another week would make Day 18.)   Does anyone *want* to provide 
bad service?  I doubt it.

In party, I'm hearing a steady stream of comments along the lines of 
"I want my e-mail!"   And the most alarming comment:  "Is m-net gone 
permanently?"

   this is almost as bad as the three-week m-net outage in the summer
of 1995.  we lived without m-net for three weeks then, and even though
it's not particularly pleasant, we can do it again.

Yeah, grex has gotten a lot faster since the last time I used it regularly.
I am not hurting having to conference here. 

M-Net is not gone permanently.  For further info, inadequate and frustrating
though it may be, see Item 38.

is all the griping in the world, all the nay-saying, all the hand-wringing
going to bring m-nut back online any sooner?

Nay, I say.  ;-)

at least the grim reaper could be stowed away for a couple of months.

You are drunk.

#32:  That's my conclusion, as well.

Normally, I wouldn't accuse him of being drunk...but #31 just left me going
"Huh?"

we know, kevin.
we know.

See?

I'm guessing here, but I think he was trying to say that the downtime
shouldn't be counted for purposes of the one-month reap rule.

That's what I think, too.

        That is, hold off the grim reaper program to give users a chance
to rediscover that M-net is working again.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss