OK, people, take your best hold!

90 responses total.

   I should have asked here, rather than in another item, but have
the books been transfered yet?

        Now set for High Noon at the Art Fair Booth Building Party.

What's it going to be postponed to at that point?

   see item 11, response #10. there is no excuse for the transfer to be taking
this long.

   B minus 24 and counting.

        WHAT ACTION WILL THE BOARD TAKE IF THE BOOKS ARE NOT HANDED OVER
        TO THE AUDIT COMMITTEE BY TOMORROW, MONDAY, JULY 22, 1996?

Same as usual, I imagine - not a thing...

Membership drives are so _obviously_ more important to Arbornet than 
having proper accounting, accountability and responsibility <shrug>.

Why on Earth would anyone expect anything else?

it's a wonderment to me how anyone can man an arbornet booth at the art fairs
and keep a straight face as they extol arbornet/m-net's supposed virtues - 
especially if they use e-mail as a selling point.

Anyone up to doing a picket in front of the Arbornet Art Fair booth protesting
the failure of craig and/or linda to turn over the books?  Perhaps posing a
real threat to Arbornet's cash-flow is the only way to get the point through
craig's dense cranium.  I am serious about this.  This passed being ridiculous
quite a while ago.

Sorry, if the Borg won't act, and the Patrons allow the behavior, I 
cannot see wasting my time...

Too bad, but it's pretty much typical of (and consistent with) the Borg 
behavior of the past year plus..

   Wow.  I'd never thought of that.  I wonder what the Ann Arbor News would
do with that as a potential story?

I think that would be an interesting situation  (ie; #9).  Maybe _real_ public
humiliation is the only way to get any action.  At least, the athorities would
become aware of the gravity of the situation and, perhaps, they could get the
books pryed loose.

Does anyone care to seriously pursue this course of action?  If so, post it
here so that we can attempt to co-ordinate shifts of picketers.

I suppose it would only be fair to notify craig et. al. if we really decide
to go through with this, but to hell with fair.  Fair went out the window when
craig declined to provide Dave with the books right after the election.

Not to be picky or anything, but are you protesting craig, the borg,
arbornet, or m-net?  Does craig and/or the borg (whatever that is)
control arbornet or m-net still?  If they are sort of disassociated,
then hurting m-net may not be a very effective means to achieve results,
and the resulting harm to m-net may be far worse than the lack of the
books.  If you *really* don't like "the borg" (and you really have a
valid complaint against them), it would seem simplier (to me) to report
the books as "stolen property", and pursue it either via the courts or
police.  The sort of attention you might get from "the authorities" via
protesting would seem much more likely to be of the tear
gas/embarassment variety than anything actually beneficial to your
cause.

I would hope that you would have exhausted every avenue of peaceful
resolution before resorting to any such extreme measures, and I would
suggest preparing yourself for the possibility that it turns out the
book has been peed upon by the family dog, partially burnt, or
accidently sent to saudia arabia, and is therefore permamently unusable
and/or unavailable.

Marcus, read response #9 for the answer to your question, since you obviously
missed it the first go 'round.  All you have to do is type "only 9" at the
"Respond or pass?" prompt.

Or take a look at the Policy conference on M-net.  Craig has been with-holding
the books from Dave Cahill since the last election.  Before that, he failed
to turn them over to the previous Arbornet Treasurer.

   Marcus is right.  A protest is not the best approach if you still care 
about M-Net.

   Since I assume you are not a member, recalls and court orders are 
pretty much out.  Have you contacted the IRS about tax fraud yet?  The 
IRS would have a field day nit-picking at Arbornet.

"A protest is not the best approach if you still care about M-net."

"The IRS would have a field day nit-picking at Arbornet."

So, siccing the IRS on Arbornet is better for the welfare of M-net than an
informational picket?  Hell, I wouldn't wish the IRS on my worst enemy.

   i'm not so sure a picket is a wise idea. and as far as i can tell, dpc is
the third treasurer to whom craig has failed to relinquish the books. i think
the best way to get the books and other arbornet-related documents out of
craig's hands is via court order, and then follow that up by removing him as
president of arbornet so that he doesn't abscond with them again. picketing
the arbornet art fair booth is, imnsho, an ill-thought-out, knee-jerk
reaction to a problem which needs to be resolved through proper
channels.

Well, I'll be sure to think next time before I venture an opinion.  My
apologies for offending your sensibilities.

(Evidently goroke doesn't remember what questions I asked, what he said
in #9, or who wrote PicoSpan.  Fascinating.)

Wow, so Craig is still president, eh?  I can't imagine anyone wanting to
take on the job of being treasurer in such circumstances.

#17:
   The IRS discovering Arbornet would probably result in the swift 
dissolution of Arbornet.  All of its assets would then be given to 
another 501(c)(3), such as HVCN.  If you picket, you'll help slowly drain 
their bank account, at which point they'll start selling off equipment.  
By the time they actually dissolve, the money will be gone, along with 
most of M-Net.

I don't believe that Arbonet would be either allowed or in a postion to
sell diddly, if the IRS got involved - I seem to recall such events
generally result in a 'lock-down' on assets, paperwork and whatever -
including the finances.

If anyone wants to get serious, "aaron" gave me the data required to
contact the IRS several weeks ago.. I can post it here or email it, but I
myself am totally uninterested in bothering: when their are patrons,
staffers and lawyers already pissed off, I feel it is their obligation to
do something.

Of course, I rather feel that the entire thing is a lost cause - no one
wants to make the first move and this includes Borg, Staff, Patron and
Members - not to mention the various 'professionals' that regularly
comment on mnut.

It still boils down to the idea that a Coup d'tat (sic?) seems to be
required just to get the Mnet system (not the imaginary Mnet Corp(se)) to
operate properly and in/with good faith..

Too, it is fascinating that major issues are discussed here and not really
on Mnut anymore... Like maybe the Borg is gonna' listen here anymore than
there!?!

I remember precisely who wrote PicoSpan, Marcus.  My response was snide --
far more so than I had intended.  This matter has been such a source of
aggravation for so long that I have taken to snarling at everyone.  And I went
back and re-read my previous response before I referenced it.  And I am
dropping the subject, as I frankly no longer care.  My apologies for my
rudeness.  M-net's politics bring out the worst in me.  And others.

Does anyone know if I, as a member of the Audit Committee, can begin court
action to get the books from Craig?  I am a member, but since the Board
changed the by-laws so only Arbornet members may vote I didn't think I had
the standing to do this.  Now that I've been appointed to the Audit Committee
my standing has changed.  If, in fact, I now have the authority to do so, I
would not hesitate to commence such action.

Charles Oliver in #23: so type "forget" at all M-net political items 
and stick around to contribute elsewhere.  (That's what I try to do, but 
morbid fascination keeps bringing me back.)

IMHO it would be better to let Craig fly Arbornet into the ground than 
to begin any sort of court action.  The Ann Arbor science fiction group 
had a struggle for control which went to court, and it took about 
8 years to heal the repercussions.   
 
I take it Arbornet has not sent a deputation to Craig's house to 
camp on his doorstep for a while.

It's 90% morbid curiosity on my part.  I do genuinely hope m-net can get
its act straight as painlessly as possible.

The term that springs to my mind is fiduciary.  My impression is that
Craig has a fiduciary responsibility to turn the books over.  The
treasurer has a fiduciary responsibility to see that "the books" are
kept straight.  At *this* point, it sounds to me like you could perhaps
more profitably just write the old books off, and start over.  It is not
likely that those books are anywhere near up to date today.  I am not at
all sure, however, how you will be able to keep a straight face while
asking people to donate to an organization whose all-powerful president
has managed to *lose* the books.

I think any officer of Arbornet could legally call the bank and request
copies of past bank statements.  It is an organization checking account.
There is too much money involved to take this lightly.  If they
converted even fifty cents of thatmoney to personal use without
good reason, they should be prosecuted.

Ah, so, if they use more than 20 hours of direct connect time (at
$19/phone line/month, that works out to 50 cents of "personal use"),
they should be persecuted?  I see...

The most complicated part of the treasurer's job is likely to be keeping
track of incoming membership contributions, and keeping track of when
the resulting patron/memberships expire.  That part is not likely to be
at all accurately recorded in any bank statements, which is likely to
lump several checks from different people into one anonymous "deposit",
and is further not likely to record whether the contribution is for a
shorter-term patronship or a longer-term membership.  Depending on the
difficulties of obtaining necessary operating funds in a timely fashion,
it is also possible that some payments are actually made by people out
of their own pocket, and later reimbursed from m-net general funds.
Such payments will certainly look like "suspicious" payments to "inside"
m-net people, when in reality, the payments are for perfectly legitimate
reasons that are not visible to the bank.

Marcus is quite right.  The "books" do not consist of merely the bank
statements, but all the supporting documentation as well, such as  receipts,
invoices paid, the records of membership for both Arbornet and M-net, etc.
We'd have to have all of that, even if it's stuffed in a paper bag in no
particular order.

Still more talk than action, krc... Not that I expect you to mug craig,
but the Entire Borg, plus Patrons and members, have been aware of this
problem for a year now..

The problems and the legal solutions have been reiterated more times than
I can even mention; void offered transportation and others suggested legal
action..

I dunno what the entire point of this fruitless exercise is anymore,  
except to point out how easy it is to "disenfranchise" yourself with
excuses, (not pointing at you, personally).

The patrons, members and Borg have decided to act with _inaction_, as is
their right (except for the Borg, where it is deliberate mismanagement).

To start new books seems incomprehensible to me, but perhaps there is
precedent for this - I'd suggest that doing so is tantemount to admitting
the Borg is irresponsibile and that legal action against the Borg in
General and Craig in particular - by the state, perhaps as a class-action
suit - sounds appropriate. This should pose no problem, since we have our
own member shyst - er, lawyers as users of the very system going down the
tubes..

Who has standing to bring suit against arbornet?  Guests don't.  Members
probably don't as thy cant vote.  Same with patrons.  Arbornet members
probably could.  Board members could.

Only two officers have access to the bank account.  Craig and linda.  DPC has
refused accountability until he recieves the books, and has as yet not filled
out the paperwork required to have access.

Craig, linda and I have access to the Safety deposit box, but nothing is in
it yet.  Both craig and I have to appear together to activate the box, adn
he has as yet not had chance to do that.  Sigh

"had a chance"?!?

/rotfl

"Starting over" w/ new books is basically admitting the old books are
"lost".  There's nothing wrong with that per se; hazards such as fire,
flood, dogs, and south american business trips pose the same risk.  In
this particular case, the only screwey thing is not the necessity of
doing so, but that the people responsible for this turn of events still
seem to be in a position of trust within the organization.

I'm not entirely sure just how the by-laws read currently (and I wonder
if anyone does) - but my recollection is that there were some rather odd
passages that gave the president in particular, and perhaps the board in
general, "unusual" power, privileges, and/or protection.  I vaguely
recall a passage that indemnified the president and/or board members
against some sort of action(s).  If that's so, there may not be a whole
lot of benefit to bringing civil suit against the president or other
board members - the net result may merely be the transfer of a whole
bunch of money out of the corporate coffers, into the hands of
politicians and lawyers.

One of the other things that I recall being screwey about the by-laws is
that the board could change them, virtually anytime they wanted to.
That in itself is (or seems to me at least to be) a very unusual and
questionable arrangement.  That basically gives the board absolute power
- because they can change the voting requirements or nearly anything
else the organization does.  I was surprised that the by-laws didn't
seem to require some sort of membership vote, at the least.  There
really shouldn't be much routine reason to change the by-laws, in any
event, because routine operating matters shoudln't require changing the
by-laws, and only special circumstances should require such changes.

In this event, the one sure way to get action is to organize
the disenchanted members.  Do a mass e-mailing of all the 
members and get as many of them as possible to agree to cancel
their memberships at the same time if a final deadline to turn over
the books is not met.

It does sound like the mnet bylaws are screwy.  Wonder if mnet's
bylaws have the grex bylaw provision that basically allows the
board to declare any controversial matter a "security" issue
if it so desires and deal with it in total secrecy.

1. because the books are still being held by the president
there is no current membership list available.
2. only local e-mail is working on m-nut.

Yes, getting the members involved is a good idea but as jerryr has pointed
out, it isnt clear who is a member and who isnt. 

It is also unclear why the mbox is down and why we are entering here
instead of there..

Anyone want to explain the situation - beyond the simple and obvious facts
that it IS down and the Borg seeks more money for Arbornet and it's many,
many community projects?

I mean, gee - if yer going off the air, fine... How about some warning?

If it's a crash, I'm puzzled as to why it crashed and why it is still
crashed and what all of our many roots and staffers and Borg-members are
doing?

Gee... With all this downtime, perhaps it's the ideal time for the Borg to
confront their Emperor and/or compile that list of gear and sowtware that
comprises the mbox and settle on a price(s)?

<snort> And, they want more funds?!?

It is very rare for the grex board to deal with "security" issues.
Those issues have to do with things like holes in our system (or other
systems) that allow people to vandalize them, or particular people who
are either vandals, or somehow otherwise abusing our system, or other
systems, whose names probably ought to be private.  I doubt anyone's
interest would be served by making such matters public.

#36,37...thats terrible...grex keeps the list of members in a public
file called !members...mnet should do likewise.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss