I'm looking for a relatively inexpensive, sort of middle-of-the-road
laptop.  Key features would be relatively small size (10-12 pounds
is probably the upper limit, and a Compaq luggable is right out),
a reasonably good screen, some kind of hard drive (at least 20MB,
probably), a fairly good keyboard, and at least 1MB of RAM.  It should
have at least one serial port and one parallel port.  Things that would
be nice, but not absolute essentials, include a mono VGA screen, a
bigger hard disk (40MB or 60MB or even more), more memory, external
keyboard & VGA connectors, and a 1.44MB floppy drive (it should have
at least a 720K drive).  A 386SX or SLC would be nice, but I don't
think I'll find something that fast in my price range ($500-$700).
(You never know, though.)  Something with a 386-line processor and
enough RAM and disk to have a fighting chance of running Unix (probably
4MB or 6MB of RAM and at least 120MB of disk) would be absolutely
heavenly, but I *know* I won't get something like that in my
price range.  I'm very willing to get something used; in fact, the
price would have to be pretty low to get me to buy it new.

Any suggestions for what brand and model of laptop I should be looking
for?  Any comments on whether I've got any chance in hell of finding
what I'm looking for in the price range I named?  Any idea how much
a reasonable price for one of these on the used market would be?

104 responses total.

Maybe you'd also want to enter this in Classifieds?

  You could probably run Linux respectably on a mono VGA / 4MB RAM /
40MB hard drive / 386-ish machine for under $1000.  Laptop prices have
gone pretty low this year.

and Linux is fairly small fromowhat I have read. Not sure if you
could compile it on the laptop, but that may not be a problem ...

You need 4MB to do any serious programming/compiling work.  You need 2MB
minimum to run the system, but compiling will be swap-city.  X requires 8MB
without doing the disk boogie.

Otherwise, Linux is fairly compact.  Supposedly, 11MB will get you a core
system, while 21 will get you just about everything but X and TeX.  Check
out comp.os.linux in Usenet news.  DEFINITELY check out the SLS
distribution of LInux, as its MUCH easier to install.

Any more questions, feel free to mail me!

Okay, sounds interesting.  But does anyone have any specific brand/model
recommendations?  I'm more or less looking for suggestions on specific
laptops to seek out or avoid at all costs when I'm at a swap&shop.

Stay away from the Zenith SuperSport series.  They're heavy, ungainly,
and I had a miserable experience with one for a long time.
 
(I now have a TI 3000 notebook.  I've *also* had some bad experiences with
 it, but nothing like the bad time I've had with the Zenith.)

How about the AST laptops?

When you say "bad experiences" Josh, what are you talking about (hard
drive crashed, bad memory, bad battery, etc.)?

Bad disks (both hard and floppy) bad keyboard, bad power supply, bad memory.
Bad battery.  Bad case, bad display.  I think that about covers it.

  I can talk about the new IBM ThinkPad 700C laptop.  We have two of
them at work and I've glomed onto one for the time being.
  Its a 486SLC running at 25MHz, 4M ram, 120M disk, and a color VGA LCD
display.  It has an internal battery pack that is exchangable, a socket for
a 387 math chip, and capability of 9600bps modem.  Standard jacks are
keyboard/mouse, VGA display, serial port, and external adaptor socket to
hook up to a docking station for SCSI disks, 5.25 floppy, etc.
   The screen is *wonderful*.  This is the first color LCD screen I've
had the chance to really use, and it beats CRTs out completely.  The mouse,
(or joymouse as I call it) is a little stick between the G, H and B keys.
Its a strain-gauge that is very responsive to finger movement.  Weight is
about 8 pounds.
   The 700C is a power pig however.  The NiMH battery is rated at 18V 2900mAH
and gives about two hours of life.  Recharge time is about 1.5 hours.  Since
the battery is modular, you can get extra batteries and an external charger
for them.
   Overall, its been very nice.  We have the extended service contract,
which has been a good thing.  The red transistor on one pixel on the upper
right hand corner of the screen got stuck on after some number of hours,
and it was amazing how aggravating one little pixel can be...  So IBM came
out and I got a new display(!).  That was bizarre.  I also had to get a new
floppy; the original unit developed a problem with its door.  I must say
that Teac has produced the smallest floppy drive I've ever seen.
   Another interesting thing is that the hard disk is removeable.  You can
pop it out of the unit.  Handy for those situations there you're in great
personal danger and don't can't carry the laptop back home with you...

So, the moral here is that laptops and notebooks tend to be more trouble
prone than desktop machines?

   Well, maybe not.  Zenith has had a history of producing weird
stuff at lot of the time.
   The LCD display on my machine contains 921,000 transistors in a
configuration such that you can't change out a block of them.  So
if ANY of them go bad you need to change out a major section of the
LCD display, and I don't think its economically feasible.  So IBM
actually didn't have to change out the display on my unit, since only
1 pixel was bad.  Apple, for their earlier PowerBooks said that 5 pixels
on the screen was acceptable (ick).
   I know of four of the GateWay laptops in use for three months now,
and none of those have had any problems despite extensive use.  It seems
the better built units are OK.  You just get to spend an extra $600 for
them...

Probably, although it's also possible that laptops and notebooks receive
more than their share of abuse, and thus tend to break more frequently.
I'd think that STeve's ThinkPad problems were just "growing pains"
type stuff, and that IBM will have the difficulties ironed out soon.
I'd certainly expect them to, if I were paying $4K for a laptop.

(STeve, slippery fellow that he is, managed to slip in before me.)

I understand about the color LCD's -- that's a naturally trouble prone
situation -- but Josh's problems seemed to be more systemic than that.
I've considered getting a notebook for some time, so it's interesting to
hear about their problems.  You get what you pay for, most of the time.
It's those times when you pay, but don't get anything that are frustrating.
(And worth hearing about).

One engineering note to take care of - steve's batteries last abour
2 hours, but recharge time is abouot 1.5 hours. NOWTHAT'S good engineering.

It consistently amazes me that laptop makers never seemed to catch on
to quick-chargers for laptop batteries.  I've got this 7.2V 1000mAh
battery for my HT that I can recharge in an hour or so, but the laptop
battery (probably 1000mAh-1500mAh @ 12V or so) takes 15 hours.  Huh?

Now that more laptops have a sleep mode built in, you can usually change
batteries without having to quit all of your applications.  That's
awfully nice if you're running Unix on the thing, and don't want to
have to shut down the system when your battery runs out...

Well, I've had some good and some bad luck with the TI (20Mhz386sx).
But on-the-whole, it is vastly superior to the Zenith.

(And everybody I know who has a powerbook just loves 'em)

I had a PowerBook 140, and have a Duo 230 right now.  The 230 is great -
I have 4M ram, running VM to get 8, a 120M hard drive, and an internal
14.4 fax/data modem.  Weighs in at 4.2 lbs, and I get about 2 hours
per charge doing development work, or 3 hours if taking notes, or doing
things that aren't disk intense.  The machine is just a tad slower than
a Quadra 700 (mine is a tad slower because I am using VM).  Has a built
in microphone, which is handy to catch a sound bite now and then.  Can also
drive up to a 16" monitor, but you need a dock. SInce I already have a
desktop machine, I have not bothered with a dock.

I'm sure that your duo is a wonderful machine. I wish *I* had one.
But I am equally sure that it is way out of Marc's $500-$700 budget.

$500-$700 would get you a Mac Portable or a PB 100.

There is much more room to move in th $1000-$1500 category.

PB 100?  Where.

I think they are all gone now (new that is).  You can still find plenty
of them used.  You can get refurbed Portables in the $500 range - look
in the back of MacWeek.

  My housemate is trying to sell his PB 100 (don't know the configuration,
but I *think* it's 6/40 with a 2400bps modem..)

  Email me if you're interested and I'll pass it along to him or else
call 761-6204 and ask for Dan (but he's not around much..).

I would appreciate if someone (or someones) could list for me the
respective features (with comparisons), and accessories, of the
Mac Powerbooks. The plethora of "numbers" is rather confusing. I think
the 145 with 4/40 and a fax modem would suit me fine, but I'd like to
contrast that with the others. Has a comparison been published?

The computere showcase on the first floor of the Michigna Union usually
has all that stuff readily available - and someone to talk to as well.
  
At least they did wehn last I was working there ....

The Feb 93 issue of MacWorld has an article (p196) comparing Powerbooks
145 vs. 160 vs. 180. Here are the pros and cons:

PB145 Pros: Most inexpensive      Cons: No built-in video port
            Moderately fast              limited Ram  & HD expansion
                                        Ram upgrade req. dealer inst.
                                        Cannot be made a SCSI disk
List: $2149-$2499

PB160 Pros: Built-in Video        Cons: limited HD capacity
            moderately fast             video port is non-standard
            good battery software       Ram upgrade req. dealer inst.
            large ram capacity
            16 levels of gray
List: $2429-$3149

PB180 Pros: Active Matrix Display       limited HD capacity
            all the 160's pros          video port is non-standard
List: $4109-$4469

Of course there are 3 other Mac portables, the Duo 210, Duo 230 and
now the PB 165c. These are not reviewed in this article, but they
have been reviewed. The PB 180 is still hard to find (but not as bad
as it was). The active-matrix display is sufficient for some people
to justify the entire machine. (It is very impressive)

The 165c is a *color* Powerbook, which uses a passive screen that has
not had good reviews. If you want color, wait until apple does an
active matrix color machine (and invest well in the interim).

The Duos are ultralight and dockable. They haven't sold well, but
they are good machines. IMO.

Before you settle on the 145 4/40 look at the grays on a 165 and the
active matrix display of the 180. Your eyes will tell you whether you
want to spend extra for that stuff (many do, not all).

Thank you Steve! I went to the Showcase, and had a chance to fiddle with
several of the Powerbooks, but I like your summary better than the
story they had there. And now I'm kicking myself that I wasn't saving
my MacWorlds! I'll dig that up. One thing I couldn't learn at the
Showcase was anything about (e.g.) modems. What internal model options
are available for those you list? 

I agree with the reviews on the 165c. I thought the color was pretty
washed out (and also, can't imagine why I would need color in a laptop
- so you see, I'm in the "not all" category!). 

Sorry Rane, my experience with modems is limited to external modems
on desktop machines. (I don't have a portable/powerbook  :(  )

I have a 230 and love it.  At trade shows use thge mini dock and
external monitor, at my home office I can hook up to the full dock and
take advantage of the network, CD-rom, etc.

I have a problem with my notebook... I broke the 
screen and was wondering if any 12.1 in glass
would work here are the specs. 12.1 screen stn 486 mhz 4meg ram...
will a vga screen work or will i have to change the mother board
if anyone has any suggestion please email me at
olmec@cyberspace.org
thanx

I doubt any 12.1 would work without significant modifications.  *Most*
notebook displays are *custom* for the particular notebook in question.
A new screen will run you about $500 or more.

My, this item is chock full of history, isn't it?
 
My 1993-era notebook is pushed to exhaustion:  it's still 
a fine machine for Grexing, but: it takes 10 minutes to print a page
from MS Word; it doesn't have a CD Rom; I've sort of given up getting
Trumpet Winsock and Netscape to run on it.  (486sx, 20Mhz, 120 meg hard disk,
4 meg RAM.)
 
The old machine is a Toshiba; it's been very reliable.
 
Steve told me about some closeout Toshiba 430CDT models at the MSU
computer store; I almost bought one last week, but I just can't 
get the hang of the little wiggle stick.  Tonight I played a bit with 
a loaded Fujitsu laptop with a touch pad, and I seem to have fallen in 
love... unless someone wants to tell me Fujitsu horror stories.
I really seem to like the design of the Fujitsu, everything seems to be
in the right place.

I recently had to fake being a trumpet winsock expert for a customer. 
Maybe I could fake it again...if needed.

I need a Windows machine for a variety of scientific software not
available in any Mac version, and also want a laptop for use in the field.
The UM Stores has a tie with "University America", who are selling
reconditioned laptops in the $400+ range. I don't know anything about
these models. I would appreciate comments on the following alternatives,
which would seem more than adequate for my needs. Compactness and
durability are more important to me than "nice display" or even speed. 

Compaq Lite Elite 4/75C 486 DX2/75, 16MB, 510 MB, 14.4 modem, dual scan
Compaq Lite Elite 4/40CX, 486/40, 12MB, 810MB, 14.4 modem, dock, act. mat.
IBM Thinkpad 755C 486 DX4/75, 12MB, 340 MB, 14.4 modem, active matrix

What is "dock"? I would like to use my ZIP drive to backup the software
that comes on the machine - are these machines SCSI ready?

Comments and suggestions very welcome. 

The dock, or "docking station", will be a thing that plugs into the back of
the laptop and will have more connections on it for peripheral.  Capabilities
vary widely.

SCSI is rare on Intel laptops, but there are now SCSI PC card adapters.

Could you tell me about active matrix vs dual scan, and DX2 vs DX4?, and
the 'reputations' of Thinkpads vs Lite Elites? Which of those machines
would you (did you...??) prefer if they all cost the same?

I've seen dongles that convert parallel ports to SCSI ports.  That may
work with your ZIP drive.  A DX2 chip runs at twice the speed of the
clock on the mother brd. while a DX4 runs at (get this) three times the
the speed of the clock on the mother brd.  The slowest of the bunch is
the Compaq 486/40 but it comes with the docking station gizmo.  We've
had some problems with the Compaq laptops here at work but they did have
nice displays when they worked!

What kind of problems? These used machines have had their knocks, and
then cleaned and tested, etc. Did you have just early failures or
continual problems?

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss