Hello all.  I was wondering if there are any other yestertech-addled
retrogeeks hanging around who'd be willing to talk shop about Apple ][
systems and/or programming.

18 responses total.

Go for it

Okay, I'm up for it!
I have a IIe in the cupboard with a diskette drive (5.25" naturally ;o)
I justify keeping it by kidding myself that I'll eventually get round
to finding enough time to program it (and perhaps build some add-ins or
add-ons for it).  By the way, check out http://www.6502.org/ if you're
interested in that kind of thing...

My most recent Apple ][ acquisition was an Apple //c+ (the little
portable-sized Apple // with the 3.5" drive built in).  But, I've got
several other models of Apples hidden about the house, too.  Way in
the back of my mind, I've got this idea of using one of my //es for
something like data acquisition/monitoring (e.g. house temperature)
and/or for programming an X-10 controller.  It's been quite a while
since I've done any programming on my Apples, either Applesoft or 6502
assembly.

I've been thinking of transferring my X-10 control program platform from
a Zenith 150 to a MacSE, except I don't like the available Mac software
(and it doesn't look like I'll ever get to writing my own). 

to #2: I can help if you need ideas or have questions about programming.  I'm
a veteran BASIC programmer (but then again, isn't anybody who's ever program-
med an Apple //?) and I have experience in Pascal, but my current addiction
is assembly language.  On the other hand, I've never tried any hardware pro-
jects, although I do have a copy of "Understanding the Apple II."  You can
get a copy from the Byte Works (http://www.byteworks.org) if they haven't
sold out of them yet.  And yes, I've been to 6502.org; it's a good site.

to #3: Congrats!  I've never even *seen* a real live //c+!  I picked up an
X-10 unit a while back along with a bunch of other Apple // bits, but it
didn't come with any software, and I haven't been all that motivated to try
anything with it yet.  As for your abscence from programming, I've been there,
and was delighted with how easily I picked it up again when I returned.  Some
of the subtleties of the platform took a while to re-learn, but it was a very
pleasant effort.  BTW: which assembler did you use?

As for me, I have both Apple's DOS Tool Kit Assembler/Editor and Big Mac (the
predecessor to Merlin), both of which run under DOS 3.3.  I've only recently
discovered the joys of ProDOS, and I'm currently trying out LISA in that OS,
since I'm not yet convinced I want to spend $60 to get ORCA/M when even its
author shies away from recommending it.  ("It's not upgradable to the 16-bit
version, which is so much better that if you're even thinking about coding
on a GS, I'd say 'get the GS version,'" was the (paraphrased) advice.)  If
anybody has a copy of the ProDOS versions of Merlin or Apple's EDASM that
they'd be willing to part with, I'd be very interested!

I've got the Merlin assembler (DOS & ProDOS).  Quite an interesting program.

I learned assember on the Apple //e.  The built-in monitor is a pretty nice
environment for basic tinkering, and the machine is simple enough that you
can understand it relatively easily.  Plus everything's so well documented;
the programming guide even has an assembly language listing for the ROM! You
really want a //e Enhanced, an original II without the Autostart ROM, or a
II+ with the language card, though; all other models lacked the built-in
Mini Assembler, though they could still disassemble code with the monitor
ROM.  (On the //e Enhanced, you invoke the Mini Assembler by typing ! at the
monitor prompt; on the II, there was a location in ROM you had to jump to. 
One of the programming guides gives the syntax for using it, as well as for
the monitor ROM (which is entered by typing "CALL -151" at the BASIC
prompt.))

The //e is a ][ Enhanced, so //e Enhanced is redundant ;) (Well, unless
you had an early //e like me and had to get the update for double hi-res
graphics at which point, you might say you had an Enhanced //e). Anyway,
having done more than enough programming in the monitor, I was very
pleased to get a good assembler.  Speeded up the whole process, made
editing much easier, macros are cool, etc.  But it was/is nice to know
you can still do some things with no additional software.

Along the same lines, I once wrote a (relatively long) Applesoft program
from RAM to a cassette player because my disk drive got discombobulated.
Saved it just fine, but slowly.  Read it back in and to a Disk ][ right
after rebooting.  Old technology may be clunky, but sometimes it'll save
you an hour or two when nothing else will :)

Did anyone get into compacting their Applesoft code?  There were several
programs available that would remove all spaces, turn PRINTs into ?s,
combine as many lines as possible into a single line, etc.

The Mini-Assembler is also available on *any* Apple // when the Integer
language is loaded.  The entry location (same on all machines running 
Integer) is $F666; I have no idea whether the number was planned.  It was
also available on the //c and the IIgs in the same manner as on the
Enhanced //e, although I've read that the //e never allowed for the
additional instructions and addressing modes of the 65c02 (the chip that
Enhanced it), as the //c does.  I believe that the IIgs also allows for
entry of the additional instructions and addressing modes of the 65816.

I'm between projects at the moment.  Most recently I wrote a utility for
transferring disk image files (usually with a .dsk extension) back onto disks,
and another for swapping characters in text files.  I know the latter is an
easy task to accomplish in UNIX, but I've downloaded enough files before
realising that they had the wrong newline character that it's been a useful
utility all the same.  Both were written entirely in assembly, and both have
shown clearly to me the elegance and efficiency of ProDOS.  I have Worth's
and Lechner's excellent _Beneath_Apple_ProDOS_ to help me, but I've been
wondering if there're any additional references out there anyone could
recommend to me.  Specifically, I'm wondering what the differences are between
the fifteen or so different versions I've collected over the years!

Re #8:  There *is* a difference between the //e and the //e Enhanced.  The
latter are usually marked 'Enhanced' under the power light.  I don't
remember what all the details were, other than double hi-res.

The "e" always stood for "Enhanced" that's why I find it redundant.
No matter what the power light said, if the the //e label was on the
case, it was an Enhanced ][, as far as I know.  The fact that they
made updates or modifications to the //e doesn't make a whole lot of
difference to me in terms of Enhanced-ness (it's still a //e).  Are
you going to be distinguishing between Revision A //e's, Revision B
//e's, Platinum //e's, Mac LC's with //e emulation cards, etc. in all
your responses?  I know I don't want to, except as it applies to very
specific programming issues.

Well, my point was merely that the original //e did not, as far as I know,
have the Mini Assembler.  The Enhanced //e did.  Also, there was software
that would not run on a standard //e but would run on an Enhanced //e.  The
fact that a //e itself is an enhanced ][+, and the ][+ is in turn a ][ with
the Autostart ROM and shift key modification, wasn't really part of my
point. ;>

Okay.

Double hi-res was only one of many improvements to the Enhanced //e.  There
was also a bug fix for the 80-column firmware, and better support for
lowercase in Applesoft.  The most significant change, however, was the
replacement of the original NMOS 6502 with the 65C02, which has more available
instructions than its predecessor.  This explains why some software that runs
on an Enhanced //e would not run on the original.  Also, the ROM space
was doubled, and the Mini-Assembler's inclusion was a result.

BTW, the ][ plus did not come from the factory with the shift key mod.  That
was added afterward (to just about every ][ plus I've ever seen) by someone
else.  The only other change was the inclusion of Applesoft in ROM -- oh yeah,
and the word "plus" on the cover!

There's a very good history of the Apple // by Dr. Steven Weyhrich on the Web
which has all this information and more; if you're interested, I suggest you
look it up.  The url is http://www.hypermall.com/History but I caution you
to set aside a few hours to read it -- it's big!

Well, I'm already tired of "Enhanced //e"

Okay, I'll shut up about it already.  Guess I'm too much of a geek sometimes.
Does anybody have any telecomm programs on their //'s still?  It might be
interesting to swap files and such....

Re #16

I don't think I've even got a serial port on mine! I daresay
I could rig up a parallel to serial converter, but I doubt
somehow that the Apple II had a bidirectional parallel port.
Hmm, I suppose I could send data in status line very slowly,
but it would probably make more sense just to buy a serial
card for it.  I've seen Apple II cards with serial ports
that look like those on a Mac, I wonder if they come with
software.

Incidentally, what Disk Operating Systems will work with an
Apple IIe, and is any particular one recommeded?

Apple II serial cards are fairly cheap last I looked.  They're
well worth having if you can afford them (less than $15 it think).
 
DOS 3.3 and ProDOS should be the first two in your box of tools,
in terms of ][e operating systems.  ProDOS, for me, gets used
most often.

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