Well, dishes are "laundry", too!

40 responses total.

I've hesitated to enter this story, but it is instructive...

Our dishwasher started to give us a problem as much as two years ago. It
left particles of the detergent on the dishes and glasses in the upper
rack. We changed detergent because of this, and it seemed to help, but the
problem returned, and occurred intermittently. 

Now, we were the types that "prewashed" our dishes, so grunge would not
dry on them. In fact, I had gotten into the habit of using items from the
"unwashed" dishes, for quick needs, since after all I had prewashed them.
We came to consider the short cycle wash, when we did it, as the coup de
grace, to "sterilize everything". 

Well, finally I got annoyed with the undissolving dish detergent, so just
a couple of weeks ago, I did some tests, of how the wash water circulated
in the washer. I put glasses and dishes face up in the bottom and top
racks, and noted the volumes collected. It seemed pretty fair in the
bottom rack, but poor in the top. So I checked the top "spinner-sprayer" -
and found it was not producing. I then checked the manual, and it said the
water level in the washer should be a half inch below the heater coil. In
the washer, however, during the wash cycle, the level was lower (there is
no control on the level - just a fill cycle time). From the manual
check-list, it appeared that maybe the filter in the fill valve was
plugged. 

So I finally opened the machinery comnpartment, and checked things out.
The fill valve solenoid was OK (resistance), but now that I was looking at
it, and turning the machine through its cycles with the water turned off,
I noticed that there was no satisfying *kerchunk* as power was applied. In
fact, though I could detect a faint hum from the solenoid coil, the *valve
was not opening*. 

It then became apparent that we had not been washing the dishes for as
long as that "insoluble detgyergent" problem arose. A little water did
leak through, and some drained off the pre-washed dishes we put in,
maintaining a low pool of - concentrated detergent solution! - in the
bottom of the dishwasher. We were rinsing our dishes in that solution.
Yuchh. 

It still hurts to think of it. I bought a new fill valve and installed it,
and now there was a healthy *kerchunk* when it opened, as well as the hiss
of inflowing water (which we had not missed as it had faded away), and a
good healthy flow during emptying...and no undissolved detergent. 

Now, we are wondering what is the effect of eating dishwasher detergent
for a year or so. 

I've diarrhea, so if you didn't have that then you may be OK.

Er... that should read "I've heard diarrhea".

great opportunity for "cute" comments

The detergent contains sodium carbonate, sodium metasilicate, sodium
tripolyphosphate, sodium sulfate, Aerosol OT (a wetting agent). They
provide essential or useful agents of sodium, antacid, silica, phosphate,
and sulfur, and stool softener. In fact, small daily doses of dishwasher
detergent might be salubrious. Of course, as for anything, it is possible
to overdose. 

If you couldn't taste it, you probably didn't get a lot.

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If it does, there must be an extraordinary number of malfunctioning
dishwashers, including in countries where there aren't many.

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It is more likely that stopping our regular dosage of dishwasher
detergent increased the possibility of gallstones. One ingredient
of gallstones is organic salts of calcium. Sodium tripolyphosphate
sequesters calcium, making it less available (this is how it softens
hard water). Therefore there would be a greater chance of calcium
insufficiency (not observed) than calcium supersufficiency. The
dishwasher-detergent-gallstone connection is at best problematical.

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Well, hey, I guess you had to choose between gallstones and osteoporosis :-)

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The formula for a (typical) dishwashing detergent is given earlier in this
item. It is a moderately aggressive cleaning agent - usually quite
alkaline. The main purpose is to remove grease and to soften and remove
solid residues. Without the detergent, spraying hot water would still
leave a film of grease. Most dishwashing detergent formulations contain
mainly phosphates, carbonate, and silicates. One or more of these were
originally added as "builders" - materials that weren't supposed to do
anything important except increase the size of the box (and reduce
excessive use of the active detergent). It was subsequently found that
they really help the cleaning action by removing hardness, breaking down
fats chemically, and inhibiting corrosion of china and glassware (the
silicates in particular). 

While real "builders" like sodium sulfate are now just used to dilute the
active ingredients and make the package bigger for the same amount of
detergent, they do serve the important purpose of getting users to use the
right amount of the active ingredient, since they tends to use too much
when the directions say to use only a little (as you have demonstrated). 

I've noticed that my little stamped aluminum measuring spoons get sort of
crusty with some kind of dishwasher detergent leftover... Any idea what this
is?  It seems to stick only to aluminum, and not all of that either, depending
on the finish.  The spoons look anodized.

They are. Anodization is a controlled corrosion of the aluminum to
build an oxide film, which can be dyed. The alkalinity of dishwashing
detergents corrodes the aluminum also, building up a thicker oxide
film. I've had some experience with commercial paint removal from
aluminum, using aqueous removers. Its tricky. The main alkaline
ingredient is usually a silicate (metasilicate), as anything more
aggressive does to airplanes what your detergent did to your spoons. 
The effect, incidentally, depends also on the aluminum alloy, which may
be part of the difference you see between different aluminum objects.

Re #13, a merely practical suggestion: wash some things dirty with oil,
or something like that that's not simply water-soluble, & see what
happens.  We went through this a few months ago when we got a new
dishwasher ( because our old one didn't heat the water, & our water
heater is so far away that the hot water kept cooling off in the pipes)
-- I kept reducing the amount of detergent I put in until the occasional
dish came out not quite clean, then added a little.  For me the most
likely to be dirty are little jars that had roast-chicken drippings.

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  I learned from freida that you can use cascade or any dishwasher detergent
to get out grease stains. Just a 1/2 cup should do.

  If your dishwasher is not cleaning the dishes well, you could take a jar
of Tang, and run it through your machine. I've heard on the radio that this
works well.

  There is a show called "The Appliance Doctor" on WJR at noon on weekends.
You can pick up all kinds of household hints and even learn how to fix a minor
problem with your major appliance. I've been listening to him for about a year
now, and I think he's pretty consistent with the advice.

Should you open the jar of Tang first?   :)

 Yes, that is usually recommended. ;)

Tang has lots of citric acid, which would clean water hardness deposits
out of the washer. I suppose such deposits could constrict the spray
nozzles. Is this the reason for using Tang? If you do do this, stop
the cycle before it drains the Tang, and you can drink the hot Tang
enriched with calcium. (Waste not, want not...)

Come to think of it, dishwashing detergents contain chelating agents to
counter water hardness. Well, anyway, if you want to try something like
this, you could buy straight citric acid, and save money.

  This is true, but how many people know that. Tang is a simple off the shelf
remedy. I don't think the supermarkets stock citric acid, unless it's lemon
juice.

Ah hah! Everyone reading this cf now knows that! Good question, though,
where one might buy citric acid in town....I'll check it out.

 I would also guess that citric acid could be had from any reputable
apothecary, as can boric acid should you also have roaches.

Boric acid is "off the shelf" (or at least used to be...) as an antiseptic.
It wouldn't work in this application, though: it is too insoluble and
too weak an acid.

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  I don't think I would class Arbor or Rite Aid as well stocked and reputable
apothecaries. I was thinking more along the lines of Wenks, or the ones in
Dexter or Chelsea that have a Ralph Bellamy look-a-like behind the counter
and knows his business, as well as the PDR by heart.
  There was one where I grew up called Wayne Apothecary who had everything
I needed to make my own toothpaste and shampoo, as well as the encouragement
to experiment with these things. BTW, they were both successes, although I
had to get the toothpaste milled because it was way too abrasive, and the
shampoo was very harsh since it was made with Tide. It did make a hell of a
hand cleaner, though.

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  I got the recipe from Proctor and Gamble, and it was a basic formula that
involved (for toothpaste) Sodium Laurel Sulfate, Irish Moss Extract, Sodium
Laureth Sulfate, flavoring (I used spearmint), and a few other things I can't
recall (this was about 20 yrs ago). I had a friend whose dad worked as a
senior chemist at the R.P.Scherer Co, a pharmaceutical co that makes all
manner of geletin capsules, In fact the worlds largest producer of capsules.
  Anyhow, He asked to see it, and pronounced it a success, then did something
called "milling" which is run the paste through a machine with heavy rollers
to break down the abrasives. It still was pretty gritty even after milling.

  The shampoo was made with detergent as the base (most shampoos are detergent
based, BTW) and P&G recommended any detergent plus lanolin and a few other
things to make it foam and smell good. I didn't use any perfume, so it smelled
like Tide. I used it, it took all the oil off of my hair, and I went around
smelling like Tide for a week. Finally decided to sell it to the guy I was
working for. I used to work in a gas station changing oil and learning to
do simple mechanical tasks on cars such as changing starters, mufflers and
other things. The shampoo got our hands very clean, and so I made a large
batch of it for the station. 

  BTW, I also learned the differences in detergents and soaps, and the reasons
detergents are better than soaps. Zest is not soap, but a detergent.
Detergents leave no scum behind, but soaps do, because of the fat content.

  I wanted to experiment with soapmaking, but that was quickly silenced when
the word "lye" was mentioned. My mother would not allow lye in the house, so
I had to settle for making shampoo instead. 

  Soap can be made from lye and beef tallow, heated and then poured into
molds. P&G used to have a flyer which explained the origins of soap, and how
it came in to being. Very interesting.

One of the science classes at CHS is making soap...I'll try to get teflon in
here to tell you about it.

  I should add that there are processes that soapmakers use called crutching
and milling. Camay is a milled soap, while Ivory isn't. 

  I'm gonna call P&G tommorow and see if I can't get some of those old flyers
that I had. I know that they publish a very good stain guide.

Home soap making was, of course, once very common when that was the only
way to get it (especially at the frontier, even after it was made for
sale). As omni says, it is made by reacting lye (wood ashes is a good
source) and beef fat. It takes some subsequent processing to recover the
soap with not too much residual lye - early soaps were pretty harsh because
of the difficulty of doing that well. 

Detergents are another matter. There are many chemical varieties, but
all require more than "kitchen chemistry" to produce. I cannot think of
any natural or simple detergent that was in use before modern chemistry
came to bear. Can anyone else here?

  Off the top of my head, no.

Found one (or, a group): Saponaria, also called soaproot, fuller's herb,
bruisewort, or bouncing bet. A lather can be formed from the saponins
from the root, but it is toxic to fish. Another source is Quillaja, or 
soap bark, Panama bark, China bark or Murillo bark. Such natural detergents
are still used today as foaming agents in shampoos and other products.

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