For discussions of whether and how to set up a conference on translation, for
use primarily by professional translators from around the world.  What would
be appropriate discussion items?  Is there already such a conference, besides
in FLEFO (compuserve), which I don't think is open to the general public (non
Compuserve members).

63 responses total.

Hello, I am hoping to get a discussion going of how to start a
conference for translators, and first had to learn to use backtalk.
I am hoping to have a place to post questions about the RUssian
educational system, papermaking terminology, and the like.  If enough
people announce themselves in this 'item' I will start a new
conference specifically for translators.

I don't have any objections to the institution of a separate, "clean"
translation conf.  However, if there are only a couple of things to discuss
about translation, there is no reason that those couldn't be items in this
language conference.  What about the prospective conferencers - what do *they*
want to discuss?

I invited 14 of them to telnet or Backtalk to this item but they have not
yet figured it out.  See Coop.  One says he is on a mailing list and does not
need to conf.  ANother is on Compuserve FLEFO (which costs $20/month).  They
will discuss this at the annual convention, soon, and let me know.
There are plenty of things to discuss, we all have problems translating
subjects that we don't understand as well as someone else might, and we have
different dictionaries and backgrounds and could help each other a lot.  As
things are, questions are published a montha fter you mail them in, and you
get published answers a couple months after that, too late to do any good.

Well, so far several people have said they are interested, but nobody has
apparently actually tried out the conference. 

One promised to try this out over the weekend.  I am now having email
discussions with three people about one phrase in Russian, and it would be
nice to have a conference discussion instead.

Hi, I am translator of the Polish language and would be very interested 
in a forum where I could ask and answer questions relevant to my 
translation work.  I am a native speaker of Polish, and in my off-line 
experience have found it very helpful to work with translators who are 
native speakers of English and translate from Polish.  They can help me 
with the subtleties of the English language and culture, while I can 
help them with my knowledge of Polish and Poland.  It would be perfect 
to have a discussion item for people translating to and from Polish, 
where native speakers of both languages can help each other.  Also, 
people could help each other in their respective areas of 
specialization.  Possibly I could get some Polish translators from the 
US and Poland interested.  It will be more of a challenge to find native 
speakers of English who work on Polish, since I think there are not that 
many of them to begin with.

Hi Mirek, you are the very first of 14 people I invited to try grex who
actually made it here.  Can you tell me how long it took you to get to this
conference, and just what you had to do?  I will forward that info to other
people and urge them to join us.  To non-translators, Mirek and I have been
exchanging help by email, on such interesting problems as 'what is a quilt,
is it a blanket or a work of art?', and how is the Polish educational system
different from the American one (useful for translating grade transcripts and
diplomas), and I suggested that some of his questions could be answered by
plain old American non-translators simply interested in language.  Mirek,
please post some general questions here, like the quilt one.
        I found about 8 Americans listed who translate from Polish, enough to
have some interesting discussions.

I can certainly comment on subtleties of English language usage.  I know no
Polish and almost certainly will never have a need to translate English into
Polish.  But one never knows!  :-)

'other' has been sending me requests for translations into Hungarian and
Catalan, which he could have posted here.  The University Musical Society has
been writing welcome letters for its visiting performers.
I am working on a Croatian transcript and wondered about the following:
urbroj - original number?  record number?
JMBG - federal i. d. number (unified registration number of citizens)?
Elektrotechnikia - electrical technology, electricity?  Something studied with
electronics.
The owner of the transcript was born in the 'country' of Serbia, according
to the Croats, but the Serbs still call their country Yugoslavia.  
And from a fashion interview, what are 'svilene najlonke', literally silk
nylon stockings, are they silk stockings or nylons?  (Croatian again).

The offer to help with subtleties of English usage is much 
appreciated.  If I see any questions here about subtleties of Polish 
usage, I will happily answer them.  If there are not any of those, I 
will be glad to address questions about pierogies, golabki and Polish 
and Poland in general.

Hi again , Mirek.  I think other grex users would enjoy hearing about changes
in Poland since liberation.  You were telling me how the fast food chains have
moved in.  I hope you are enjoying reading the rest of the language conference
in grex, and maybe some other conferences.  Try kitchen if you want to start
a discussion (item) about pierogies and golabki.  Jim has recipes.

Or just send samples *grin*.

OK, getting down to translation business, I'm translating some primary 
school report cards into Polish for Polish parents to understand.  Here 
is some vocabulary I don't understand, not having attended the primary 
school in the US:
KINDERGARTEN
adds/subtracts using _manipulatives_
FIRST GRADE
reads _sight words_
readst _story vocabulary_
SECOND GRADE
adds/subtracts with/without _regrouping (trading)_
Please help

Well, I attended primary school in the US and _still_ I'm not sure if these
make sense. But...

"Manipulatives" - I think I remember these. We had little wooden blocks, and
bigger blocks which stood for ten little ones, or 100. The idea was to work
out math problems by using the blocks as an example.

"Sight words" - I'm guessing this means "Words you can read at sight, instead
of sounding them out phonetically". But I'm not really sure.

The other two, I have no idea about.

Right, sight words are words you *recognize*, more or less instantly, with
no conscious parsing at all (and without picking up clues from context, for
that matter).  The "adds/subtracts with/without _regrouping (trading)_", I
believe, means with/without carrying or borrowing.  That is, adding 15+13 does
not require "regrouping"; the ones digits can just be added, likewise the tens
digits.  Whereas 18+13 requires "regrouping" because 8+3 has to be seen as
11, regrouped into 10+1 so that it can be recognized that the tens column gets
an extra 1.

"Manipulatives" may not be that specific.  I think the idea is that the child
understands how to take (say) 4 objects away from a group of 7 objects and
see that 3 are left, with concrete objects being used.  Understanding how to
do it with the abstract numerals 7, 4, & 3 may not be present yet.

I'm guessing a little about "story vocabulary", but I think it's this: is able
to read & understand words (vocabulary at the level being presented) when used
in context of a fairly simple narrative - as opposed to being able to define
them when presented out of context.  This would mean that the kid can answer
questions designed to test whether those words were understood, I think, as
opposed to asking the kid "what does the story mean when it says so&so".
(On this one some current elementary-ed major can probably set me, a mere
parent, straight.  On the others I'm pretty sure I know what's meant.)

Thank you so very much for the two replies.  What you say about 
manipulatives fits with the fact that on the report cards adding with 
manipulatives is contrasted with knowing addition facts (i.e. you know 
3+4 is 7 without having to use fingers/blocks/etc.)  I think "story 
vocabulary" may mean something else.  It occurs on the report card in 
the following group of items:
Reads sight words
Reads story vocabulary
Reads with understanding
Reads fluently
If the explanation of "story vocabulary" were correct, it would be hard 
to see a difference between it and the next item, "Reads with 
understanding".  Or am I missing something?

"sight words" are like "and" or "the"- you can't get them from the story, you
just  have to recognize them on sight.
"story vocabulary" is probably what you guessed; the words used in that
particular story.  Now story *grammar* would be how the story is organized,
how one part leads to another.
Reading with understanding means just that- that the story makes sense to the
child; he or she can answer questions about what's going on or even why.  Some
children can read quite fluently, even words they have not seen before, but
they are just decoding sounds, not making meaning from those symbols.  That's
"reading fluently"- not hesitating or making errors.

This is wonderful, I did not know any of the answers and could not have helped
Mirek.  In my day they just graded on things like spelling and handwriting.

Thank you everyone, I think I have it straight now:
"Reads sight words": able to recognize instantly words which you have 
to be able to read without context (mostly? only? short words which 
don't require parsing, like "and" or "the")
"Reads story vocabulary": reads words of a particular story, which you 
normally recognize using context, but this does not neceassarily imply 
to much about the child's understanding the story
"Reads with understanding": well, just what it says
"Reads fluently": very good at reading at level which does necessarily 
imply much understanding of the story

Yes, but reading fluently is an important component of reading with
understanding.  Beginning readers often get bogged down trying to decode one
word at a time.  Starting to gain fluency allows them to turn a corner, at
which point they start using context etc. to help them pick up words they'd
have trouble with *out* of context.

(I'm not contradicting what you said, mind.  And, since you're multilingual,
you've almost certainly seen the phenomenon I've described in context of
learning another language.)

I just posted a request for help (Jellyware 229) with translating a grade
transcript for a computer major.  

"Reads fluently" is a higher level of reading than "Reads with understanding".
On report cards, these are usually ordinal scales, and the list is ordered
to show that.

Although some people can read fluently without understanding what they are
reading, if you spend time helping lower elementary level children, the
reading with understanding usually comes before the ability to read with
appropriate intonation, breathing, and variation in speed, volume, and
"voice". 

John Decker, who writes the translation inquiry column for the monthly
translators' journal and was the first to suggest an online conf, just got
his desktop computer back from repairs and hopes to try out grex and report
on it in the Jan issue.  If a significant number of the 6000 or so members
give it a try, we may have a viable new conf.  Two people is not critical
mass, fun though it may be.

John started a new item, maybe he had not figured out how to respond in this
one, see 98 (99?), I think it is.

I have a general question for 'dog people'.  I am translating a diploma for
dog training, in which someone is trained as an instructor-dresser of
military-official dogs.   Official could also mean 'service'.  And he wants
to study to be a Cynological Judge (judge at dog shows?).  Are these terms
proper English, and if so what do they mean, and if not what should they be?
(I also wrote another translator who used to do dog training and will post
her answer if she cannot figure out how to use the bbs yet).
Webster says a dresser puts things in order or in straight rows, and cyn- is
the Greek equivalent of Latin can- (canine).

And a question about wines.  What is the correct English for terms which
translate roughtly as peak/supreme/summit, archival (aged?) and one which
looks like the German Praedikat (predikatno)?  Hoping to hear from somebody
by mid-afternoon bycause these translations are expected back soon.

"Judge at dog shows", or some other phrase like that, would probably be better
than Cynological Judge. I don't think Cynological is a word in common use.
"dresser" - all I can think of is "groomer", being as I can't imagine military
dogs wearing clothing. I may be wrong; I'm not much of a dog person.

Orinoco, from the last bit of response 24, I'm thinking that the "Dress" in
question is not so much like "grooming" or "appearance", but like "training";
there is a horse-back riding discipline called "dressage" whose name comes
from a French word for training, and a military parade term for a whole line
turning right at once would be "dress right".  So a person who Keesan is
calling an "instructor-dresser" might be a "trainer and coach" or some such;
someone who teaches the animals and then puts them through their paces. Dunno.

Thanks, I will suggest that and hope the translation has not already gone to
the client.  A friend said mit Praedikat wines have had sugar added.

Good point, kami. I think you're probably right.

Got the correction made in time, thanks to all.  My latest job is about
different types of pumps, ugh!

The latest issue of the ATA Chronicle just arrived today.  John Decker, editor
of the Translation Enquirer, suggests that people visit
www.cyberspace.org/backtalk.html and the Language Convention.  (We have an
annual translators' convention).  I emailed him more detailed instructions
on how to use grex, along with my email address for questions.  John has been
running a published version of a conference, with such questions as how to
say thumb controller in French, and what is the correct English for the French
troulo, a round house used by the Hakka people, and do they worship a soil
god or a god of the earth?  (Earth god?  Or is it only Earth Goddess?)

Mirek called to ask what hard goods and soft goods are.  We guessed that soft
goods are clothes and curtains, is that right?


Rather than starting a new item (with a new number) for each query, please
keep them in this item until we ascertain whether there is enough interest
to start a separate conference for translators.

Copied from Item 98:

Item #98 entered by John Decker (the Translation Inquirer)(vuff) on Thu Nov 26
16:06:50 1998
 An electronic equivalent to The Translation Inquirer column

 Cynthia Keesan has been bugging me for some time to get into this conference,
 and I am glad she did! Since April 1993 I have been the editor of the
 Translation Inquirer column in the ATA Chronicle. ATA is the American
 Translators Association. The column got started back in 1963, in the
 pre-electronic era as we know it, and still exists now when such electronic
 forums as FLEFO exist. But now, in 1998, the slow nature of the Translation
 Inquirer is a sore point with a lot of people. Because of publishing
 schedules, it can easily be four months between the time someone posts a query
 about a language item until an answer is published. Despite this, the column
 is one of the most popular, because people can store it in hard copy form and
 the contributors to it often give very definitive answers, something you don't
 always get if you place a query in CompuServe's FLEFO forum. So, just for
 starters, let me post a query from my own experience as a free-lance
 translator working (in this case) from Russian to English. The context was a
 draft law about bioethics in the Russian Federation. The phrase that wasn't
 clear was "po zhiznennym pokazaniyam" and a bit more of the sentence it was
 taken from was:" ...pobuzhdajushchih ili prinuzhdajushchih svoih chlenov k
 otkazu ot medicinskoj pomoshchi PO ZHIZNENNYM POKAZANIYAM (vkljuchaja otkaz ot
 perelivanija krovi) v otnoshenii sebja i svoih detei." I really like the idea
 of quick responses, and this conference is a nice alternative for those who,
 as Cynthia says, do not subscribe to CompuServe. Keep in mind that the above
 inquiry is just a way of sampling what happens when queries are posted. I will
 return again soon, and hope for good results! - J.C.D. P.S. Thanks, Cynthia,
 for pushing me to do this.

 


Can anyone come up with the proper English for MUDr (MD?) and Dipl. Ing.
(Engineer with a diploma - B. S. ?).

re: 31- slow down!!!!!  That's too many questions.  And I think we may need
more of a contextual reference to answer accurately.

I want to know more about these Hakka people and their round houses; from
where are they?  Are they nomadic or sedentary?  Are they current or ancient?

And it is probable that they worship an Earth God (male) or Earth Goddess
(female) rather than a deity of the soil.  The difference would be between
worshipping a being of the location which gives them sustanence, rather than
the dirt/soil/loam in which the food grows.  Which makes sense?

I ran across mention of trulli (singular trullo?) as the round stone houses
with conical roofs built in Sicily.  There was no more context on the Hakkas.

While trying to figure out if Altavista had found my new webpage yet, I
searchedn on Slovene and translator and found the home page of the Slovene
Society of Scientific and Technical Translators.  They replied to my brief
note (in Slovene) with an invitation to join their forum, which is an email
address, so we can exchange help and meet each other.  How does a forum work?
I also tried (unsuccessfull) to join an Albanian Web Ring run by something
that hosts free forums paid for by advertising.  It is in Albanian.  Befoer
making another attempt, I would apprecaite knowing how a forum works.

I also found a Slovene translator in Canada.  She sent me a sample of her
work, consisting of a few pages of Slovene and the equivalent in English. 
It turns out to be a test translation into Slovene of something that I had
translated from the Slovene to the English.  I know of only three other people
in the US who translate from Slovene to English, small world.  Before she
wrote back I received a request for a translation into Slovene and referred
it to the people in Slovenia.
        Nobody seems to be interested in an online translators' conference.
The information on how to join was also published in the quarterly Slavic
translators' journal, along with how to join a mailing list.  I don't think
grex could handle too many people getting floods of email, most of which they
did not intend to read, so will skip that.  Oh well, I tried.  I also listed
grex, with backtalk instructions, on my new webpage (grex webpage).

(Out of curiousity, keesan, how did you get started as a translator?)

Glad you asked.  See my webpage, there is a link to an article someone asked
me to write on "How I Became a Translator".  Basically, I liked languages and
sciences and majored first in sciences and then in languages and then needed
some way to support myself through grad school and then there were no teaching
jobs.  Not too many people know both Slovene and chemistry, but not too much
work in SLovene, I had to learn ten languages to stay in business, and for
the first five years or so I also painted houses, interior and exterior. 
Translators are all a pretty odd bunch who sort of drifted into the field,
You have to like puzzles, and working alone odd hours, and be able to learn
the basics of an unfamiliar subject fast.  (webpage is www.grex.org/~keesan)
This week a did a random list of Slovene words (some sort of psychological
evaluation), and several diplomas and transcripts, and a list of places
someoone worked, and now something about a medicinal plant.  The diplomas go
quickest and pay best but are boring.  The plant is interesting - valerian.
I use grex to read about the subject with lynx.

Here is part of a 1998 rant by the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland:

The Orange Institution also does not talk to the Parades Commission, because
it is a discredited Government quango whose remit and actions are clearly in
violation of democracy, justice and human rights.

Can anyone define "quango" (not in Webster) and "remit" used in this context?

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss