Do human beings use the same devices to learn a foreign language as to
learn their native language?

25 responses total.

I used a riding mower to learn my first language.
"brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrooom!"

Heh.

Come on, people, I tried to formulate that question without any "techie
talk", and this is the thanks I get?  <griz pouts>

OK, I'll enter a serious response.

I don't really think so.  When you are in the process of learning
your first language, you don't have any language to refer to.  When
you learn subsequent languages, you are constantly relating the second
to the first. (At least I do).  It would probably be better to not do
this, but I don't see how that's possible.

Kids who grow up in a two-language home have it the easiest.  They
start from "ground zero" and learn both simultaneously.

So what you're saying is that people learn language in one way when 
learning their first language, and in another way when learning their
second, because of interference from the first language.  Is that
correct?

I think that it varies, depending on the age you are when you start to learn
the second language.  An older child or an adult would have that problem, but
a young child probably wouldn't.  I had friends in school that traveled about
quite a bit as they were growing up that were multilingual.  The few that did
their traveling (and subsequent learning of another language) while very
young (under 6 of so) seemed to not have to tranlate from one language to the
other for themselves (only for us monolinguals).  Those that learned the other
language(s) later usually translated from the secondary to primary language
(alibet much faster than one would think possible) to fully understand what
was being said.  I have often wondered what is the language a person thinks
in/dreams in if that person "thinks" in more than one language.  (I believe
that "thinks" is the term used for not having to translate from secondary to
primary language.)

What I remember from Psych 101 is that childhood cognitive development
differences from adult cognition predispose an ease-of-learning in children.

Certainly, the way adults are taught language is very different from the
way babies learn.  I've heard of experiments teaching adults "more like
babies learn" that seems to actually work pretty well.  The idea is,
instead of the traditional things like giving people long vocabulary
lists to learn, and complicated grammar rules, & such, you instead get
people to participate, in a much more physical fashion, in the learning
process.  You start off, immediately, with the instructor only speaking
that funny language -- and the students are expected to communicate in
that same language, too, from the very first day.  And the instructor
doesn't just use simple sentences and words you are supposed to "know",
but uses complicated "adult" setenences from the very first day -
sentences the students may not be capable of constructing for quite some
time.  The learning is also physical & interactive -- the instructor may
act out things, and then ask you to act those things out.  Students also
interact a lot more with each other and the instructor.  Early lessons
might name parts of the body and simple activities, such as walking.
Later lessons might involve much more complicated activities, perhaps
skits involving "going to the restaurant" or whatever.

Which isn't so different from trying to get a very small child to say
"nose", or watching slightly older kids "play house" in kindergarten.
Adults can clearly do many things children can't (or won't).  It's not
so clear kids can actually do anything adults can't.  Perhaps the
problem is just that we grown-ups figure we're "too big" to do all that
"kid stuff".

I'm pretty sure that the age you learn a second language influences the
way you learn all subsequent languages, too.  I can see that in my kids,
to some degree.

As to the dreaming question, my kids say that they dream in the language
they've used most recently.

The differance is physiological. When Babies/toddlers are learning their
first language, their neural pathways in the brain are still forming.
(If you want intelligent kids, expose them to language and lots of
stimulus, espacially between the ages of 8 to 18 months, ie talk to them).
The theory of first language interfering with second also has some weight.
In my experience, I moved from a dutch speaking environment to an english
speaking environment when I was nearly six. It seems as if the english
replaced the dutch, because english is what I think and dream in. 
I have recently begun re-teaching myself dutch, and when I'm with dutch 
speaking people it does come back to me, but far from fluently.

Neurological pathways are already primarily formed by the time
significant language learning takes place.  In fact, myelin sheath
absence at birth *prevents* language acquisition by hampering 
articulatory freedom.

Talking *to* children, to my knowledge, has never been satisfactorily
demonstrated to enhance language learning, at least not during the time
period you suggest.  Talking *around* children, on the other hand, does
seem to have an effect, as does paying attention to children (Which, of
course, is one component of speaking to them).

Boy, Yuri, you like reviving these sleeping items, don't you?

He/she is awakening sleeping giants. I'm glad to have them up and
around, again.

They're sleeping at least partly because the earlier participants had their
say & were done with it.  It's good to have someone else come along with
more to say, & for a while may pick them up.
set drift=off
Indeed, Yuri, my impression (& it's just that) was that brign says about
physiology is right & what you said is wrong.  Were you shooting from the
hip, or do you have something to back it up?

(wrong is such a strong word among scientists :-)

Yes, but read what I said - I disclaimed anything like *knowledge*.

(knowledge is such a strong word among scientists :-)

<davel beats his forehead on the floor>

(beat is such a strong word among scientists :-)

Brighn, sit down.  Hush up!  Behave yourself, you are squashing a good 
attempt to get the discussion moving. 

Gee, Kami dear, I thought I was the only one keeping it going at all.  :-)

I think what I heard somewhere was that the *connections* between
neurons, or whatever, are still being made in the early years of
life.  

Right.  We develop neural networks with repeated exposure to a set of
stimuli.  So the more you talk or read to a kid, the more they get "primed"
for verbal and written language.  The more they see colors or throw balls
or look into the distance and try to discern which is the figure and which
the background, the easier and more habitual become those skills.  same is
true for the specific linguistic pattern the kid hears. Brighn, tell us
what are myalin sheaths and how their incompleteness limits learning.  Am
I remembering correctly?

This is from the Grolier CD-ROM Encyclopedia:

multiple sclerosis
{skluh-roh'-sis}
Multiple sclerosis (MS) is a chronic disease of the central nervous system
characterized by the inflammation and loss of myelin (a white, fatty substance
that acts as an electrical insulator for nerve fibers) in the brain stem, optic
nerve, and spinal cord.  Patients may develop weakness or paralysis,
incoordination, mental disturbances, impaired sensation, and vision problems. 

Myelin sheaths are primarily relevant to speech in that when they are not 
completely formed, muscular activity is inhibited -- in short, the kid 
can't move its tongue subtly enough to make speech sounds.  That and 
the fact that the tongue is more sizable in comparison to the mouth 
inhibits learning by inhibiting mimicry.

There is a fascinating article in "Science Times" in today's NY Times
(section B) which analyzes the neocerebellar connection. This theory
took a long time to be accepted, but is now more widely accepted,
and the article describes it in some detail, with evolutionary considerations.

The cerebellum is not for motor skills alone, but there is a Language
and Planning connection there too.

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