Here's the conversation about Cheap Eats.

158 responses total.

I like [most of] your stco, Colleen. :-)  So what kinds of things have 
you made out of these items? 

I just recently came across a recipe for tomato and corn soup that 
sounded pretty good and I plan on trying it out sometime soon [though 
I'm not sure what the actual cost will come to]. I'll post it here or 
in one of the summery items sometime soon.

Opps, first sentance above, stco=stock. How I came up with stco, who 
knows.

Last night I had tandoori chicken, (chicken thigh, yogurt, green chili
pepper), steamed brown rice, onion sambal (onion, lemon juice, mint), and
curried cabbage.

The yogurt is an interesting issue.  I keep a batch in the refrigerator most
of the time, and have a starter there even if I don't have a quart I'm using
up.  I got in the habit when an Armenian friend gave me some of her mother's
starter for mazdoon (yogurt).  1 teaspoon of the old batch is enough to make
a cup of new, just to keep things going.  If I lose track, I start another
batch with live culture plain yogurt, or with yogurt starter from the coop.

I usually make a quart at a time.  Often I drain off the whey to make yogurt
cheese, a thicker substance that I use in place of cream cheese and sour
cream.  This time, I used the yogurt cheese as a marinade to put the chicken
in over night, along with the other tandoori spices.

wow. that sounds really tasty

Yeah, I'm surprising even myself to see what the "bare cupboard" shopping list
can be converted into.

After lots of fiddling with exchange lists and food diary entries I've
come up with a pretty standard breakfast.

First thing in the morning I indulge in 1/2 of hot milk mixed with a
shot of expresso coffee.  

Later, when I get hungry, I have a simple muesli mixture of rolled oats,
yogurt, raisins and walnuts.  The walnuts are there to boost my fat
intake for the day, which is sometimes hard to keep at 30-35% of
calories.

End-of-the-day analysis of food intake over the past couple weeks has
highlighted that as an area of imbalance.  Since walnut oil is one of
the healthier polyunsaturated fats, I chose it both for the texture and
for its nutritional value.  

This week's sales fliers are online, and here's the pantry-stocking data. 


Sugar 5 lb                      $1.99
Tomato Sauce 15 oz              $ .50 
Tomatoes,canned 14.5 oz         $ .50 
Walnuts                         $4.50 lb
Green beans, canned 14.5 oz     $ .50


Milk $2.27 gal (price is rising, now more expensive than dried milk)

Butter $1.99 lb


One Day's Protein

$ .41   Boneless chicken breast tenders $.81 lb
$ .69   Eggs $1 doz
$ .92   Whole chicken $.79 lb
$1.23   Ground Round $1.98 lb

(Chicken breasts are buy 1, get 1 free 8 lb bag.  Will split with a neighbor)



                Price per exchange

Grapes      $.79 lb     .15
Mangos      2/$1        .20
Peaches     $5.00/4 lb  .43
Plums       $1.49/lb    .47
Cherries    $2.99 lb    .70
Blueberries $2.50 pint  .70
Strawberries $1.50 lb   .71
Cantaloupe  2/$3        .80

compared to
Raisins                 .09
Clearly mango is the fresh fruit for the week


                        Price per serving
Zucchini   $.99 lb      .19
Tomatoes   $.99 lb      .52
Asparagus $1.99 lb      .83



compared to:            Price per serving
Cabbage, fresh raw      .07
Tomato,canned, diced    .14
Carrots, fresh cooked   .16
Green beans, canned     .20

Zucchini comes in under green beans, so for variety, I'll buy a couple.  

You really put a lot of effort into your diet. 

For me, it is better for my mental health if I dont but that is because 
of some food issues I have. I sometimes wish that Purina would make 
a "people chow" or something. 

Colleen- I'm in absolute awe. These are amazing items. I'm really
enjoying reading them. So thanks.

slynne, we can make you a "people chow" recipe if you like. *grin*  I'll even
come help you cook it.  

At one point in my backpacking days I carried a few tubes of homemade survival
food.  IIRC, it was shortening mixed with dried eggs and powdered sugar in
some ratio that met basic protein and calorie needs.  Kinda like icing on a
training program bender.  Now days I think I'd use whey powder instead of the
eggs.  

You're welcome, Anne.  Feel free to post any questions.

WARNING:  Don't be fooled by the decimal points!  Nutrition is an inexact
science at best.  Especially in the US, where your slightly overfilled half
cup is equated with my dead level one. (Cooking systems that use weight
instead of volume for recipes are slightly more accurate).

Just because Excel *can* calculate things to 15 decimal points doesn't mean
that your answer is more accurate.  

My logic is that the errors cancel each other out if you are only making
comparisons.  In general, it's accurate to claim that carrots have more x than
tomatoes do.  You cannot however feel comfortable saying "this carrot lying
on my kitchen counter will contain x calories per ounce".  

You can only assume that, over time, and carrots from many different sources,
you will consume carrots that average out to the same values as the hundreds
of carrots that died for science and the USDA database.  

That's an amazing breadown of dietary needs correlated to cost.
Really.  I don't think I have anything valuable to add but know
I'll be enjoying your item.

I might not need help cooking it but I would love to come up with a
recipe for "people chow". I think that such a thing will help me
separate eating for pleasure and eating for fuel. Plus it sounds like it
could be really convenient. 

Could work for those times when cooking just isn't something a person
wants to do.

'Course, for me it would have to have potatoes in it. *laughs*

Good question about the difference between whole grain and refined
carbs, Sindi.  As you can see from the shopping list, my grain intake is
almost all whole grains:  rolled oats, whole wheat flour, cornmeal,
brown rice.  

The dried lentils, navy beans, pintos, and split peas are also complex
carbohydrates.  I don't have any juices on the list for the same reason:
juice is far more rapidly digested than the same liquid embedded in the
whole carrot, or orange, or whatever.  

The 100 gram limit is changeable in this regard:  it is tied to the
number of calories consumed.  As long as the calories from carbohydrates
do not exceed 1/3 of the calories consumed, I can eat more.  

In order to add carbohydrates, I would have to simultaneously add
protein and fat calories in equivalent amounts.  I quickly go over
caloric equilibrium when I do that.  Even at the maximum calorie level
of 1400 calories per day, I can only have 117 grams of carbohydrates.  I
keep the 100 figure in my head because it's easy to remember. 

So you are eating meat instead of beans in order to raise your fat intake?

Try reading more carefully, and I'll try to write more clearly.  

Item 244:6
 "The walnuts are there to boost my fat intake for the day, which is sometimes
hard to keep at 30-35% of calories."

Item 243:14
"I cannot reach my needed protein levels eating beans since the calories per
gram of protein are way too high."

Item 243:20
"Because I use beans as a meat alternative, it really works out to 1 starch,
3 veges, 1 fruit, and 6 additional meat choices.  Because I eat relatively
low fat foods, I sometimes have to add in walnuts at the end of the day to
bring the percentages into balance."
 
I use walnuts and olive oil to raise fat intake.  I use meat to raise protein
intake.  I use the beans/grain group to raise carbohydrate intake.  

If I only use the beans/grain group to meet protein needs, I exceed my daily
calorie limits.  

My doctor recommended the protein intake that will keep me in zero nitrogen
balance. 

My doctor does not use metric measurements in making recommendations to me.
I have lived in countries that use such a system and well understand the
difference between pounds and kilograms. 

I also am familiar with international nutrition guidelines, having worked with
a UNICEF child nutrition organization.

The recommendation is based on research conducted after the WHO guidelines
were adopted in 1985.  

Can you give a URL supporting your protein recommendations?  I found mine on
the internet yesterday.  Your doctor uses metric measurements if he/she told
you how many grams of protein to eat.  

Internet research reveals that the US RDA is .8 g protein per kg ideal body
weight, which is 1/3 higher than most people need because it tries to include
97.5% of the population, including some who are unable to absorb nutrients
properly.  Let's assume this diet is for a 55 year old 55 kg woman (I am
roughly that, so probably is Colleen).  121 lb.  .8g/kg is .36/lb.  121x.36
= 37 g.  Most people would be fine with 3/4 of that or about 28 g protein.
Protein requirements can be 1 or even 1.2 g/kg if you are doing body building
or endurance training, but not with normal activity.

The calorie requirements for this woman, height 5'6" (the site wanted that)
are for moderately active (gardening, housework) 1900 cal/day, and for very
active (jogging) 2100 cal/day.
Colleen mentions she needs 1500 cal/day, and that she is very active.  I have
met Colleen and she is not 3/4 my size.  

My numbers (28-37 g protein, 2100 calories) do not match hers (62-78 g?, 1500
calories).  

I found an interesting site listing protein and calories contents of many
foods.  You could get enough protein by eating only one grain or bean, with
only about half the daily required calories.  You could get enough protein
by eating only vegetables.  You cannot get enough from fruits, which are low
in protein and high in sugar, or from refined foods made with a lot of fat
or sugar.  (This site claimed the RDA was double what most people need.)

Almost all the sites I found list .8 g/kg US RDA, which is 1/3 more than 
most people need.  The excess protein is used for energy and the nitrogen 
part is excreted in the urine.

The dietary suggestions I hear are to 'reduce' fat intake to no more than 1/3,
not to raise it to that.  

I also read that if you eat twice the RDA of protein it is bad for your
health.  With an RDA of 37g/day, 74g/day is bad for your health.  The
metabolic byproducts (ketones) are not good for you. 

What am I missing here? Based on the USDA recommendations of 0.8 g/kg 
[for most of the people, so there are few exceptions to this 
recommendation], how do you come up with this recommendation being 1/3 
more of what most people need [of course, general recommendations very 
to some extent by the amount of activity]?

Professional advice cannot be replaced by a casual internet search.

The protein and calorie levels listed above are correct.  My doctor did not
misspeak; I did not misunderstand. 

I had sufficiently long conversations that I am satisfied that the advice was
based on accurate, up-to-date, relevant information and data. 

Your one-size-fits-all approach does not work and your numbers do not match
mine for this reason. You simply do not have enough information about the
situation to draw any conclusions about my doctor's advice.  

Your final conclusion (74 g/day is bad for your health) is just WRONG. As long
as you have a zero nitrogen balance, you are eating the appropriate amount
of protein.  While I appreciate your concern, please don't continue giving
amateur advice about my health.

Meanwhile, here are some of the recipes I've been using.  I'm trying to find
interesting cabbage recipes that only use the ingredients on the shopping
list.

One treasure is an old Armenian cookbook given to me back in the 60s.  

his recipe is adapted from a cookbook published by the Detroit women's chapter
of the Armenian Benevolent Union in 1949.  

Mrs. Alex Manoogian was the chairman of the commitee, which also included
women named Abgarian, Berberian, Der Boghosian, Derderian, Horigian,
Keramedjian, Paklaian, Papelian, and Semerjian.  

I got the cookbook from a next door neighbor named Ajemian, who gave me her
mother-inlaw's copy after she died.  

Simple Armenian Cabbage

1 1/3 C    onions, chopped
5 1/3 Tbsp brown rice
5 1/3 Tbsp olive oil
2 2/3 Tbsp parsley
    1 Tbsp lemon juice
    1 lb   cabbage



Squeeze chopped onions with your hands to make them soft.  

Mix with rice, oil, parsley and lemon juice.

Options:  currants and pine nuts (about 4 tsp each per pound of cabbage). 


Parboil cabbage leaves (originally grape leaves).  

For truly simple, chop cabbage, layer bottom of casserole.  Cover with layer
of filling, then another layer of cabbage. 

For Derevi Sarma: approximately 4 leaves per serving.  
Spread leaf on a small plate, wrong side up and stem toward you.  Put 1
teaspoon of filling near the stem end.  Fold over edges and roll away from
you.  

Place some leaves in the bottom of the pan to prevent the Sarma from burning
and arrange the rolled leaves side by side in the pan and in two or three
layers.

Place a plate over the top to keep them in place.  Add about 1 inch of water.
Cover pan and cook on slow fire for 1 1/2 hours or bake in medium oven.

After they are cooked, do not remove plate until Sarmas have cooled, to
prevent discoloring.  Serve cold, sprinkled with olive oil to make them shine.



A highly modified sarma recipe.  
White rice was used instead of brown
1 lemon yields 1.5 fl ounces juice.   1 cabbage leaf weighs about 1 ounce,
and substitutes for a grape leaf.

Simple Mayonnaise Coleslaw

2 C cabbage
3 Tbsp  onions
4 tsp  mayonnaise
1/2 tsp lemon juice
1/8 tsp  dry mustard
Celery seeds pinch
Salt a few grains
Pepper a few grindings


Shred cabbage.  Chop onion fine.

Mix mayonnaise, sugar, lemon juice, mustard, celery seeds, salt, and pepper
in large bowl.

Stir in cabbage, carrots, and onions.

Refrigerate at least 1 hour to blend flavors.

This is two servings (2 C raw cabbage).

Simple Sweet Sour Coleslaw

1 C    shredded cabbage
1 Tbsp green peppers
1 Tbsp onions
2 tsp  sugar
1 Tbsp cider vinegar
1 tsp  olive oil
pinch  dry mustard
pinch  celery seeds
pinch  salt

Mince onion, finely chop green peppers.  

Mix sugar, salt, mustard, celery seed, vinegar, and oil.  

Let come to boil over moderate head, stirring until sugar dissolves.

Remove from stove and chill.  Once it's cold, pour over cabbage, green peppers
and onions.

1 C cabbage is one serving.

An alternate way to do this is to replace the olive oil with a slice of bacon.
Chop it, saute it, remove the crispy bits from the fat, then pour in the
sugar, salt, mustard, celery seed, and vinegar.

This time, pour the hot dressing over the vegetables.  

You can serve this right away, or let it cool to room temperature.

Re 21  My boss is Armenian and his last name is Berberian.  He's one 
of the pickiest eaters I know, but he does say I make a very good 
baklava.

I'd love to have someone show me how to roll out those sheets of dough.  I'm
generally fearless about trying new recipes, but that has stymied me.

I buy the premade, already rolled out kind, that I can get in the 
freezer.  I was a bit scared at first, but then I started working with 
it and got more comfortable....

Too bad I don't live in MI - we could make baklava together.  ;-)

Several websites said the .8 g/kg was higher than most people needed because
they build in a 'safety factor' and most people need no more than .6 g.
Colleen, if your doctor is a nutrition expert, then you must be in the 2.5%
of people not covered by the RDA because of some health problem.  I thought
readers of this item ought to know what is recommended for average people.
Lots of websites warn of the dangers of eating too much protein. One gave the
figure 2X the RDA as one not to exceed.  

Next time you're here, I'd LOVE to do that, Brooke.  

You do not have to have a health problem to individually tailor your
protein intake for your situation.  Maintaining a zero nitrogen balance
is a far more accurate way to set your protein intake goals than by
using a statistic for a world-wide "average" person.  

As I noted in response 16 "My doctor recommended the protein intake that
will keep me in zero nitrogen balance."

Rsp 27: "One gave the figure 2X the RDA as one not to exceed."

Even by this criterion, my intake goal is not "too much" protein. 

Whatever your purpose in writing examples using my name, and assumptions
you made about my data, it certainly was not to demonstrate something
about an average person.  You made the arguments and accusations far too
personal for that.  

Please move any further conversations about vegetarian and vegan
nutritional requirements back to the item you set up for that
discussion.  And leave me and my situation out of it.  I do not need
your theorizing about my health, my nutritional status, or my dietary
needs.  

The examples were actually for my height, weight, and age, which I think are
similar to yours.  Are you getting blood tests to determine whether you are
eating more protein than you need?  The protein RDA is just as applicable to
carnivores.  What exactly are you taking as an 'accusation'?  

After a conversation with Lynne, and another friend, I'm working on the
"people chow" idea.

Here are the guidelines so far:

Easy, easy, easy.

No thawing, no microwaving, no pouring of milk.

We've all agreed that on *people-chow* days, those simple things have
been barriers to eating.  Even a "bowl-of-cereal + milk" is too much
effort.  

Needs to store in a canister on the shelf.  No freezing, no
refrigeration.

I've imposed a set of dietary guidelines:  Needs to meet USDA
macronutrient spread for a 2000 calorie day:  91 gm protein, 271 gm
carbohydrates, 65 gms fat.  

Converting those to % of calories we have 17.9% from protein, 53.3% from
carbohydrates, and 28.7% from fats.  I rounded it to 20%, 55%, 25%.

So starting this weekend, my very-agreeable cooking partner has
volunteered to be the guinea pig for various concoctions that meet the
above criteria.  When they are ready for beta testing, I'll add Lynne to
the test-subject pool.  

Up for debate is whether pouring boiling water over the concoction is
too much trouble or not.  (jadecat, I think your potato  concoction will
need to have at least that much effort). 

Sounds good! And I think adding boiling water is an acceptable step, not
too much trouble. :)

Yay! I so like this idea because usually when I eat unhealthy foods it 
is because of laziness or exhaustion or whatever. I mean at those 
times, I dont even care if the food tastes good...I just want what is 
easiest and fastest. Cereal and milk *would* be a good thing except 
that milk doesnt stay fresh for too long so it involves regular 
shopping. But boiling water is different and probably would not be too 
much effort most times. But man, sometimes even that would be too much. 
All I would want is to be able to come home, grab a handful of "people 
chow" and fall down on the couch with it :)

You can microwave a potato in about 5 minutes, or store cooked ones.

Yeah. I sometimes microwave potatoes. But I dont like plain potatoes 
much so I end up needing to put a lot of stuff on them (plain yogurt 
being my favorite thing). 

Microwaving potatoes makes their skin funny, in my opinion. What I've
been known to do is microwave them for a couple minutes- then cook them
in the oven so as to be able to eat their skin too.

We microwave and then peel them (dunk in cold water first).  The skin is
actually not good for you, but the protein layer is right under the skin.

Why is the skin not good for you?

It figures that the skin is not good for you. It is my favorite part!

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss