If anyone wants to tackle the question, "How does Grex fit into the 
Internet?" be my guest!  This item is for questions, answers and 
discussion about Grex's relationship with the Internet.

Explain that login message about Internet service provided by ICnet
with a phone number.  Is that an invitation for me to call that number 
and get to use the Internet the same way Grex does?

From the Internet, a few times I succesfully typed
telnet 152.160.30.1 79 
and was able to finger grex.  That doesn't seem to work anymore.  Why?

I was also able to 
telnet 152.160.30.1 25 
and force mail to go straight to grex without the netmeg imposed delay.  
How soon will the Internet routing tables be updated so all mail goes 
by this route?  What's netmeg?  How's it related grex?  Can outgoing 
mail be similarly expedited?

What other such telnet sockets besies 119 (nntp), 79 (finger) and 
25 (mail) are good to know about?

When it becomes possible to login to Grex via telnet over the Internet, 
is Grex going to lose its Ann-Arbor area flavor and become a smaller 
version of Compuserv or AOL?  Is there anything we can or should do 
to prevent that before it the connection gets opened up? 

I'm sure I can come up with more questions, but first I'll see if this
batch attracts any answers...

47 responses total.

The phone number in the motd is the voice number for ICNet.  Our
agreement with ICNet gives us a reduced rate for our SLIP
connection, in return for a bit of free advertising in the motd.
ICNet sells shell accounts, dial-on-demand SLIP and PPP connections,
dedicated SLIP and PPP connections, and even leased 56Kbps (and up)
service.

Connecting to Grex from the Internet doesn't work, except from a
few hosts, because we have incoming access restricted.  This is
because we have no reliable way to prevent nonmembers from logging
in through the Internet link, and then telnetting to another
machine from Grex.  Once we have made the necessary kernel
modifications to allow this level of access control, we will be
able to open up the Internet link.

With regard to e-mail, we're working on getting the nameserver
tables updated right now.  Within a few days, e-mail should start
coming in over the Internet link, and rolling over to the
destroyer->netmeg->grex route only if the Internet link is down.
Outgoing mail is already going over the Internet link; however,
because of the way the mail headers are rewritten when they
pass through destroyer, a reply to a message that came in
through netmeg will most likely pass out through netmeg.

netmeg, for those who wonder, is Meg Geddes's SCO Unix machine.
Meg has very generously volunteered to carry e-mail and Usenet news
for a large portion of the Ann Arbor computing community, including
Grex.  Every hour or so, netmeg calls Grex to drop off mail for
it and pick up outgoing mail, and then calls destroyer (a
machine at the UofM) to drop off all the outgoing mail from several
systems (including M-Net and Grex), and pick up incoming mail.

Useful telnet sockets: Well, you can get a full list of them by
looking at /etc/services.  Common ones are 23 (telnet),
21 (FTP commands), and the others you mentioned.  BTW, if you're
on a Unix machine, you don't have to remember the number -- using
the service code from /etc/services will work just as well.  So
you can type "telnet host smtp" instead of "telnet host 25".

I don't know whether or not Grex will lose its "homey" flavor
when we open up Internet access to the world.  I tend to think
that it won't, but I don't think we'll know for sure until it
happens or doesn't happen.

As far as what Grex could be to the internet, I'd like to see us running
Lynx and becoming a part of the World Wide Web.  Lynx is something like
gopher, except that it does more, it appears seemless, and it's easier
to learn IMHO.

My guess is that there are enough folks to allow Grex to keep its local
flavor, even if a lot of others join in from other areas.

Others have also raised the question of how access to Grex from the
internet might change the nature of Grex. Like Marc, I believe that
we really can't know until we try it. If we can determine that we
like the changes that take place in Grex due to the connection, we
probably will continue to maintain the connection.

When I say "we" of course I mean all of the members of Grex,
as this is a member-run operation.

Thanks very much for the update, Marc.

I think that Grex cannot help but benefit from the opening of the Internet
link.  First of all, I seriously doubt that we are going to attract a huge
following from outside the Southeastern Michigan region.  After all, what
(other of course than our brilliant wits and marvelous virtual company) do
we have to offer a potential member from Phoenix that it can't find through
somewhere closer to home?  

I do think however, that the opening of the internet link will make us more
visible in the southeastern Michigan region, which should translate directly
into increased membership, which will please Danr to no end.  <smile> There
are also intangible benefits to increasing the population from which
Picospan responses, etc are generated.  We thrive on our diversity, and an
increased population should add to that.

It should also decrease the need for more direct-dial lines, since we can
get in from somewhere else if they're all busy.

I think I agree with all of #5 except the part at the end.
I agree that UM type folks can telnet in from Merit, but for most of
the users that's not an option. I think we need more phone lines.
How can the average grexer connect if the phones are busy?

It has somewhat decreased the pressure on the dialin lines to have some
of our busier users calling in via the network link.  (Much of this has been
staff-type business, I think.)  But there's plenty of pressure left, & we
still need more lines.  Especially as right now one of the phone lines
doesn't seem to connect with Grex & just rings forever.

A related question to that in #0, what does Grex have to offer to telnetters
from far afield?

Besides our wonderful selves, you mean?

That's about it.  But isn't that enough?  :)

I have to admit I'm a telnetter from outside. What you offered me was
an opportunity to learn how to get around on Internet and some of the ways
to communicate. I am still on a very high learning curve. Your openness
has made these opportunities available where it would have been hard to 
quantify the value before I knew what I could do and what cost. Thank you.

Lemme tell ya, folks, I was on the Greater Detroit Free-Net
briefly last night.  I can easily see why everyone wants to
use Grex instead, if that's typical of what a Free-Net is like.

Re #11:  Glad you're finding Grex to be of value to you.

Martin's response confirms something that I've known for a long time:
If you're new to computer communications, you don't necessarily know
what it's value to you is until you've gotten on to some system
(such as Grex) and explored for a while.

Rob,

What was the Greater Detroit Freenet like? Why didn't you like it?

        Pattie

Pretty much the same reason I hate the Macintosh...  oops, you're
a Mac user, aren't you, pegasus?  Never mind...  >8)

It just seemed so restrictive, giving you the teeny tiny menu
of everything you could do, and that was it.  Yes, I'm sure
the menu would be bigger for a paying member, it just doesn't
feel like I can do anything on my own volition, I'm stuck with
whatever the administrators have chosen.

A lot of new users I talk to stick with Grex for much the same
reason, because we are a full-fledged Unix system and they
can program and otherwise *do* things.

Most freenets run the "Freeport" software, which is quite confining.

Rob,

I guess I don't have the need to do things. :) Actually, I don't know
how to do anything under Unix anyway, so having a full-fledged Unix
system isn't a big thrill to me, except you need one to get on the Internet/
Usenet.

        Pattie

The Detroit FreeNet does allow ftp limited only by a one
hour per login limit.  BTW, this is my first post. Hope
it comes out ok. 

It looks fine from here, Chip.  (And welcome to Grex, the Galactically
Boring Center of the Universe.)

If you are at the Center, you can't Bore any further. Oh, yes - welcome,
chip. Yours is one of the most perfect first posts I have seen.

The people who apologize in advance rarely botch things up.  <sigh>

Thanks for the affirmations.  So as not to be perceived as the newbie
who facilitates drift,  I'd like to add a couple of thoughts regarding
the Detroit FreeNet, and Grex's connection to the internet.

The Detroit FreeNet is inherently limited by its menu driven structure. 
However, the ability to use ftp from a free access system in Michigan, 
without being restricted to Merit hosts, is certainly an asset.  I realize
that the same access to ftp is available from Grex, but, taking into
account Grex's limited internet link, it's nice to know that there is an
alternate source.  Sharing resources is the meaning of internet, isn't it?

We certainly think so (many of us, anyway).
I am interested in your description of the detroit freenet's ftp ability.
Can you specify an arbitrary server, or do you have to pick
one that's on the menu?

And if you use ftp to fetch files, where do they wind up being stored?  Do
you have your own disk space allocation on the freenet machine?  Or how do
you get the file to your own personal machine?

If the ftp client is on the freenet host, isn't that where the file
will be? Before I got an ftp client on my computer, I used MTS's,
and that's where the files went. 

So again, do they give you some disk of your own?  And how do you get it
from there to where you really want it?

re #23:  To the best of my knowledge, you can utilize any internet connected
server to which you have access.  The Detroit FreeNet menu choice "Get a file
from an internet connected computer" brings you to an open ended prompt.  I've
used this to anonymously get files from oakland.edu and a couple of other 
sites outside of Merit.

re #25:  The files end up on diskspace at the freenet.  With the exception of
a couple of difficult trials with ka9q, I've been using terminal emulation and
public clients to explore.  

re #24,26:  Yes, you do get diskspace at the freenet.  I'm not sure how
much or if there are even any limits yet.  I do recall reading something
about a suggestion to set (or perhaps it was not to set) limits.  I
believe the largest file I've gotten was about 600k.  I've had good luck
with zmodem and a technique I learned on the freenet to change to 8-bit
mode from the Merit "Which Host?" prompt.  At this prompt, I send a break
message with my terminal emulation software.  I get another "Which Host?"
prompt, and type "%bpc=8".  Finally, I change my terminal settings from
7E1 to 8N1, telnet to the freenet, and happily ftp/download away.  'Course
this is a two step process, but it wasn't too difficult to learn, and I
don't have to pay for the PPP access.

I do want to add a disclaimer to all this.  The Detroit FreeNet is still
under construction so I don't know if the open ended ftp is permanent, or
just there because a module hasn't been added to the Freeport software. 
The Traverse City FreeNet has a menu of servers where Detroit opens to a
prompt.

Wow, I've become a veritable font of verbosity. <g>  Hope all this helps.

Drifting back to a previous question, the main reason I stayed on grex
was the atmosphere.  I could get the same services on other freenets
that I was using on grex.  It was only later that I discovered things
like the shell access and the versitility of grex's system.

From a new User, could someone define the following: Telnetter, UNIX, FTP,
Merit Hosts, FTP Clients, Terminal emulation, PPP acess.

I strongly recommend that you get a book - there are lots of them now
in the bookstores. I use _The Whole Internet_ , by Ed Krol. I think
other suggestions are in other items in this cf. However, to start you
off - if you didn't dial in, *you* were a Telnetter, when you entered
your response. And, wecome to Grex, where all those other terms will
come up frequently.

I'll take a quick shot at it, but I agree with Rane that you could use
 a good book.

telnet - a TCP/IP application protocol that permits one to login to a 
         remote machine.
telnetter - one who logs in over the net, instead of dialing in directly
            (One must call Ann Arbor to dial in to Grex)
Unix  - an operating system for a computer. The one we run here on Grex.
ftp - another TRCP/IP application protocol (there are many). THis allows
      you to transfer files over the net. "File Transfer Protocol"
Merit hosts - any computer (host) operated by the Merit Network, Inc.
      In Michigan and some other places, they offer free dialup to
      the public to access their hosts.
ftp client - a program for controlling an ftp session. At the other end
      of the line there must be an ftp server or daemon.
terminal emulation - When a computer, like you PC runs software to pretend
      that it is a terminal (like a VT100) instead of being a computer.
PPP access - whew. this is a tough one for a new user. All TCP/IP
      application protocols, like telnet, ftp, and many others, require
      that TCP packets must be exchanged in order to function. But TCP
      packets must go on an ethernet or similar hardware. You probably
      don't have this kind of connection at home, so you can use PPP
      to send these packets over a phone line (via modem) to a PPP server,
      which must be connected to the net. You need the right software, and
      a server which is willing to establish this connection with you.

PPP = "Point-to-point Protocol", which doesn't describe much.

Merit Hosts refers to the Merit Network which is based here in Ann
Arbor, MI.  Since many of us live in or near Ann Arbor, we find using
Merit to be handy...we can use the hundreds of dialin modems at Merit
(well, Univ. of Mich.) instead of the six Grex dialin modems (gives
you a much higher chance of not getting a busy signal usually).  If
you have the proper authorization for using all Merit's capabilities,
you can bounce off it via telnet and go all over the place. 
  Other cities around the country also have local dialin to the Merit
Network, and that's how some others reach here.  So, if you can find a
Merit Host to dialin to, you can find Grex (usually, and given the
necessary authorizations for using Merit).
  UNIX is an operating system.  I'd guess it's an insult to compare
it to MS-DOS or Mac OS, but if you know what either of those are
you should be able to comprehend what Unix does for you here on Grex.
Like keeping track of all the programs that 30+ Grex users are running
at any given moment, as well as the programs that are responsible for
telnet and ftp...
  FTP is File Transfer Protocol and is used for transferring files
from one computer system to another.  You may have used a transfer
method like Kermit or Xmodem or Zmodem in the past.  FTP is kind of
like that. 
  PPP is another protocol for connecting computers.  For example,
the Network Access Server (NAS) at UM expects incoming modem connections
to communicate via the PPP (Point to Point Protocol, I believe) protocol.
It's a definition of what form data will take.  As long as both sides
speak PPP, things are great.  You can use PPP with packages like NCSA
Telnet to give your home computer telnet and ftp capabilities.  That's
what's cool about PPP.
  Enough for now...

31 and 32 slipped in...and now we need to define TCP/IP (which I tried to
avoid doing)...   
 
A book would be real handy about now...

TCP/IP is a data-transfer protocol for networks.  It specifies how packets
of data sent on the network are packaged, so that all the machines on the
network know which ones are for them and (ultimately) what to do with the
ones that *are* for them.  (All this takes software on each machine, which
is partly invisible to the ordinary user.  On a Unix machine such as this
one, there are several "server" or "daemon" processes brought up when the
system is brought up, running all the time in the background, to do this.
Then when you run a program to access the network - telnet or ftp or ping
or finger or anything - it sets up the means to give these programs
data to put into packets and broadcast, and to receive data intended for
your program and pass it along.)

I should know this by now, but what does TCP/IP stand for?

Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol, I think.

Yup. However, I always have trouble remembering whether it is IP/TCP
or TCP/IP. (And now, you may too  8^).)

Originally TCP was the protocol for communicating between processes on
Unix systems. The interface made it look like a file reading at one end
and writing at the other. It was a pipe actually, and TCP permitted
construction of innumerable pipes between processes running on the same 
machine or over a LAN to another machine.

IP is where a lot of the "black magic" comes in. It was designed to
permit LANs using TCP to be interconnected with routers to isolate traffic.
In order to meet the needs of global networking it now supports a great
deal of complex congestion avoidance algorithms, backpressure, etc.
TCP and IP have long been married into a single protocol - as long as
there has been an internet. In fact the design of TCP/IP made the internet
possible.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss