It can be a pain to fight with busy signals.  It can be expensive for
people as close as Bellville to make phone calls to Ann Arbor.  Now
there's another way to get into grex besides the phone lines.  You can
telnet into grex from anywhere on the Internet.

It would seem that telnet from the Michnet (Merit) Which Host? prompt
would be the most convenient way to get into grex, but because grex is
not a michnet host, you need authorization from michnet to do it.  One way
to get authorization is to have a valid USERid and password on the UM-MTS
system.  You don't spend any MTS money to telnet from michnet to grex. 
You just have to identify yourself to michnet.  Who can get an account on
MTS?  What does it cost to maintain a valid id and password on MTS if you
don't care about MTS and don't spend any MTS money?  How else can people
get michnet authorization?

If you can get a Which Host? prompt from a non-dialup port, you may not
need authorization to telnet out to grex.  A friend of mine in a U-M dorm
has a line driver connecting her computer directly to michnet without a
modem.  I was able to telnet from there to grex without authorization from
michnet, although I would not suggest breaking into my friend's room
and using her computer.  :-)  Who can gain access to one of these ports
that permits telnet outside of michnet?

What about msen?  You could telnet from msen to grex from many locations
around the state.  Where does msen have dialins?  How much does it cost to
use msen?  How often do msen users encounter busy signals?

Any other creative answers to the question, "How can I telnet into grex?"

41 responses total.

[another question about msen]

Can I telnet into msen.com without having to provide a michnet id?

Get an account on a machine like the one I am telnetting from.  It is free.
It came with the job...   }B-)

Msen is a commercial internet provider. they will charge you to use their
system. I think their least expensive rate is $20/month, but it
buys several things besides telnet. Michnet authorization costs $35/month.

I think moose must work for UofM, as he telnets in from nceet.snre.umich.edu

Does that $35 buy you just an id for using the michnet lines, or does it
also give you a kerebos password/ifs disk space at the u?

Ummm. Dunno. I do know it's what you need to be able to authenticate your
PPP session, thus allowing telnet ftp, gopher, WAIS, etc. beyond the 
confines of Michnet.

I'm pretty sure that the $35/month only gets you an authentication ID --
no Kerberos principal, no IFS space.

ICNet is a MichNet host, and Ivars has expressed interest in setting
something up whereby people buy a "passthrough" account on his
system, and then are connected directly to Grex when they log into
his machine.  You would call MichNet, connect to ICNet from the
Which Host? prompt (no authentication ID required), and then be
connected to Grex when you log into ICNet.  I don't know how much
this would cost per month, but you might want to look into it.

Personally, I telnet to Grex from my PC in my dorm room and from
the public workstations here at CMU.  But I doubt that this option
is available to most Grex users.

A friend was looking for Internet access from his home in Bloomfield
Hills, and he found the following (I quote from my friend's message):

   "I've logged on to Gateway communciations in Taylor, MI.  They have
nodes in Southfield, downriver, and West Bloomfield.  It's a little hard
to get on some evenings between 8-10 but things work ok generally.
Their number is 313-291-5571.  Cost is $.01 per minute of access time or
$5.00/month for 3 hours/ day.  Access to internet is an additional $2.50
per month.  I've only been here for a week but they seem to run a pretty
good system.  the sysops are very helpful."

Gateway Online ... 38 Line Multi-user Interactive Information System
Taylor, Michigan - (313)291-5571 2400 baud (313)291-5571 9600 baud
Sysops: Bill Mullen - Jeff Breitner

This has been quite useful.  Since I will be moving to Penang, Malaysia
this July, I need this after I get my stuff set up.  I'm sure it will
take me awhile to get it set up, but I do have a conference to Fw.
I just hope I don't have to deal with logon time.  That would be my
death (cybernetically speaking).  I just couldn't deal with it well.

It *is* possible to get to Grex from the Which Host? prompt without
authorization. At the which host prompt type gopher.msu.edu , login 
as gopher, and navigate through the menus selecting 13,5,7. Here you
will see a menu choice for Grex.

Also accessible from the gopher are other freenets, world-wide-web
clients, muds, WAIS servers, and big bbs's like Mindvox and The Well.
None of this requires Michnet authorization (yippee!).

Right.  Grex was added to the msu gopher just today!

I here I am, by way of msu-gopher (along with 3 others doing the same).
It is a bit slower than usual - but then, there *are* 21 users on!

I'm using the msu-gopher right now, and since I don't have to LD it
any more I think I'll be around a lot more.  Thanks to those who made
this available.

The msu gopher connects to a lot of wonderful places, and now it connects
to here. This is definitely good, but the increased link traffic makes it
a lot less desirable than a dialup, for those who are trying to use Grex
from the Ann Arbor area. Remember, all of these people are sharing our very
modest slip line to the internet. More dialups are coming soon.

Why do I get the idea that this particular path will only exist until they
discover we're not really an official Freenet?

This response has been erased.

 Not to drift or anything, but I have noticed that one cannot send mail
(no Meta key for me or control x keys for elm and pine) nor can they use
the vi editor. Is there something I need to do to alias these keys so that
I can use them while I am on the link, or should I just wait until
I can get a direct dialin?

I think the problem may be in your .login or someplace.  Did you tell 
merit what kind of terminal you have when you dialed in?  Did gopher
know what kind of terminal you had when you got started?  Did grex
know what kind of terminal you had when you logged in?  

I changed my .login so that it always assumes I have a vt100.  It 
does not check to see how I'm connected, and it doesn't ask me if
I have a vt100.  Feel free to take a look at /u/kaplan/.login unless
you don't use csh or tcsh.  Someone will have to translate my .login
for use in a .profile.  

Does any of this make sense?

 I really didn't give the fair trial it deserved, and I will be doing just
that in a few days, as time and dialins permit.

I'll keep you posted on my findings/

The M.S.U. gopher has other problems right now.  Seems they also
have a method on the Gopher which allows you to play games,
and I do not believe Merit is happy.

I can no longer get a reasonable dialin to jcc1.merit.edu anymore.
The dialins are *packed* during the day.  If I do get through,
I find 3-5 of the 8 dialins are filled with MSU Gopher users.

I've complained several times.  If they don't remove the games
portoin, but yet insist MUDS which they shut down years ago
had no right to be up, then we have a contradiction.
Gophers are not THAT fascinating that people spend 
10-14 hours per session.

Sounds like its going to be another nice thing that's available for a short
while and then is taken away.  When volume has increased in the past with
something it usually has disappeared.

Terrible, isn't it?
 
There really isn't going to be any 'freenets' around after a short while...
I don't define paying $35 to Msen for a dialin per month to get to a service,
free-even if the service is free It's kinda like Disney World, every ride is
free, but there is that $40 dollar cover charge,...

I run a BBS, and I wish I could manage the resources and money to make another
bbs have access to INTERNET.  And give users a chance to explore!
 
Universities are becomeing snobish about who they let onto the net  now a days,
everybody else wants to make a fast buck by charging for what 
essentially is free to them (past their phone/hardware costs)
 
ARRRRRrrrh!
 
Anybody know of another Internet dialin here in michigan now that
merit is getting more money hungry?
 

This world would probably advance a *lot* faster if information was freely
accessable by all.  I can't see why people would be against it.

 re 21-- what about the E ticket rides?

re 22: The biggest problem with making a whole bunch of things like grex
available freely over msu-gopher is that Ameritech (or some company) has
to be paid for the phone lines you dial to be connected to Michnet.  The
Internet traffic generated through MSU may be no big deal, but when you're
on Michnet, no one else can use the Michnet phone line and modem you're
tying up.  The Michnet dial in lines in Ann Arbor are (I presume) paid for
by U of M.  If the budget people at the U don't think that the U gets
anything out of our use of their resources, they have every right to shut
us out. 

If we can convince governments that "the world would advance a*lot* faster" 
with more public dial in lines on Michnet or whatever we'd need to make
"information freely accessible by all," I'm sure the government could come
up with the money.  I'm glad that the Universities are letting us use
their computing resourses for now.  But I'm not counting on being able to
use them forever. 

I'm not counting on it either.  And I'm not at all sure the government
*would* come up with the money.  I'm just saying that I think it would be
good if some way could be devised wherein you don't need to be associated
with a university or fairly rich to connect into the information highway.
Right now some places provide this, but they cannot be expected to provide
it when costs start going up and no money is around to defer those costs.
What we need is a cost effective way to do it.  It may seem like a good
thing for the government to spend money on, but convincing the government
of that may be another story.

Do you think $20/month is too much for internet access?  That's what
places like ICNet charge.

I thought Michnet was supported by the State of Michigan, and that
they paid for the modems and the phone lines.  I can see that the 
U of M would have a lot to say if they maintained the equipment.

R#26

Actually, $20 a month isn't very bad.  I'd wager (w/o any facts to support
myself) that $20 is the exception rather than the rule, however.  As I said,
some places provide reasonable access and some even provide free access, but
when this becomes costly to them your cost is going to go up whether it be
from free to pay or from pay to more pay or from whatever to nonexistant.

I have just found

             The Public Dialup Internet Access List (PDIAL)
             ==============================================
                 File PDIAL015.TXT -- 09 December 1993     

a list of providers of internet access, giving phone numbers, services,
charges, etc. The complete list (70K+ bytes) is in /u/rcurl/PDIAL.list
The list includes only internet *access* providers - not providers of
just e-mail.

This is going to take a while to search. However it will answer many
of the questions that have arisen here about access charges.

For the record: PDIAL has not been updated - that for 12/9/93 is
still being sent in response to requests.

Hey, if people are having trouble with msu gopher, try "um-gomlink"
(without the "'s, of course). I'v been coming in this way since I
started with Grex, and usually have no problems. There is no pass-
word requirement (yet), and there are quite a few other resources
available that are fun to explore!

Not sure if this is the best item for this...but...in my home directory
is a text file containing a post that was made to the Usenet group
umich.umce.dialin 2/2/95 by Ken Horning of Network Services at ITD.  It
outlines a proposed pricing scheme for dialin access.  It looks like
they want to charge $8 a month for "standard" service, with total
number of monthly connect hours limited depending on time of day.  Read
through it if this concerns you (it apparently applies to all UM
students as well as anyone else getting UMCE funding for computer and
network access).  The file is:  /u/kentn/umce.dialin

Having just read through that file, I'm no longer wishing I could go to
the UM next year.  I'd probably go through the 52 hours a month of prime
time access very quickly, and not have anything left over for the rest of
the month.

Note that that is a *proposed* policy and that ITD is taking a fair
amount of flak from students (especially comp. sci. students) on the
hour limits.  What they aren't telling you in that file is that, while
an undergrad gets $15 of UMCE funds every month, and about $2.05 goes
to e-mail access and confer access and login account fees + the $8.00
for dialin access uses "ONLY" about $10 of your $15--ITD will be
charging for printing at the computing sites at the rate of 4c per
*image* (so 8c per duplex page).  You'll chew through your allocation
in no time at that rate (leaves you about 125 images of output a
month--doesn't sound like enough for 4 30 page term papers and
associated rough drafts, or any decent amount of statistical output
[which is another charge against your account if you want access to the
statistics server]).  Add to this that there are rumors that UMCE
allocations (that $15 per month) have been set artificially high in
order to facilitate the move off of MTS--so you can probably expect a
lower allocation in the near future--and there will be a lot of ticked
off students at UM.  Now is the time to make your comments to ITD about
this policy.
  In related news, they are also imposing login time limits for each
session on the NAS.  The proposed limits are being discussed and have
ranged from *one* hour to 6 hours.  Needless to say, the people that
have responded on umich.umce.dialin don't think 1 or 2 hours is enough
time for them to read their e-mail and do programming or statistical
analysis (for example, today I spent more than 4 hours doing stat runs
on my dissertation data, and it hasn't been unreasonable in the past
for me to spend that much time on-line making the stat runs for
class-related assignments.  Programmers, I'm sure, spend as much if not
more time on-line).  An additional bummer in these time limits is that
*you will get no warning before being logged off*. (This is due to the
technological limitations of the NAS, not any animosity at ITD toward
people who stay logged in for a long time).
  Even if you aren't a UM student, but you use the NAS to access UM
hosts or hosts like Grex, you should be concerned with these changes.

I haven't bothered to do the math, but according to an article I read in
the Michigan Daily recently a student who doesn't do e-mail will be
limited to printing 300 pages per month.  A few drafts of something long,
like a really big paper, could wipe that out pretty quickly.

If you printed 300 pages per month, you'd use $12 of your $15
allocation.  While you could still pay for e-mail, confer, and
authorization/login access, you'd have to pay for your dialin access
and any other services out of your own pocket.  This is a big
departure from past ITD policies.

Wowo.  Just for comparison, Carnegie Mellon has recently started
implementing some similar restrictions.  People using the
dialins are limited to 15 hours/week of on-line time, but this
is not a "hard" limit -- if you exceed the time limit, you get
two warnings via e-mail, and on the third offense can have your
account yanked until the end of the semester.  (This is for
SLIP/PPP connections, BTW; I think regular terminal sessions are
still unlimited.)  People who need more than 15 hours/week can
purchase their own dedicated line+modem+Annex port for $30/month,
and get unlimited usage on that line.

There are currently no limits or charges for printing, other
than reasonable-person type limits on printing at certain printers.
(i.e., print jobs longer than 30 pages should be queued to the
high-speed printers in the machine room, rather than the Apple
LaserWriters in the public computer clusters; don't print more
than 2 copies of jobs shorter than 10 pages or 1 copy of jobs
longer than 10 pages; etc.)  They are, however, talking about
implementing a printing quota (the number 500 sheets/semester
has been bandied about, but I don't think they've come up with a
hard number yet), but I don't know if you will be able to buy
more print quota once you run out.

The dialin limits are being met with absolute hell from the
students, since before this connect time has been unlimited and
free.  Some argue that 15 hours/week isn't enough time to finish
assignments or do other necessary work, and that it isn't fair
to limit students who live off-campus (or make them pay $30/month
for a dedicated connection), since students who live in CMU housing
can get an Ethernet or Localtalk connection to the campus network
for free.  Part of the problem is that over 70% of the people
who abuse the dialin pool aren't students, but are faculty or
staff members -- the problem might improve if CMU Datacomm could
limit the dialin pool to students-only, and force faculty or staff
to get their department to pay for a modem pool.

But, at any rate, all the bitching about ITD really puts things
in perspective...

Many libraries in the metro Detroit area has started giving free internet
connection.  I live in Rochester Hills and access their library internet
server called metronet.  The other libraries in this consortium are
Southfield, Bloomfield Township, Canton Township, Farmington Hills and I
might be missing one or two more.  I know that Troy library has joined the
Macomb Library Consortium and if you meet the requirements, you can get a
free account, which will enable you to dial-up to their modem pool and
get a PPP connection.  Isn't that great!!

Yes, you can get free PPP, but no e-mail.  Not a problem if you join a freenet
or guest in here for e-mail service.  The Library Consortium (TLC) also sells
full access accounts which include e-mail for $10/mo.  There is something like
a $40 set-up fee and you have to buy a full year in advance, but I think this
is a good thing for someone who wants direct access and direct e-mail without
telnet lag.  Also, this would allow you to use products like Netscape and
Eudora for GUI's (probably come with the set-up fee) so there is enhanced
e-mail interface.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss