Dedicated to the drift in Item #28 this is for a general discussion
about parents and children, where the children are in college already or
for any other reason, living independently.  

Some questions to consider are as follows:
When should parents let their children make the decisions in their own
lives?  Do parents have the right to tell their children what they can
or cannot do?  Should parents be treating their children as adults after?

The common conflict is that the parents raised the children and want the
best for them.  But there comes a time when the parents must let go
and let their children fend for themselves.  How do we make this a smooth
transition?

Any other issues that are thought up may also be discussed here.  ;)

53 responses total.

my parents still have this nasty tendancy to decide what i should be doing
at any given moment.  at the moment, i do live with them, but i am moving
out in sept.  my father came one step away from flat out forbidding me
to do so, tho.  but at this point, he realizes that it's my decision,
not his.

and no mater how much i gripe and moan, i really have some of the best 
parents around...i give them a lot of credit.  :)

This response has been erased.

I get very little of that from my folks.  They were pretty protective when
we were kids, maybe over protective, but they seem to let go just fine.

Mine, too.  I drew the line when I was about 19 or 20, and they
pretty much let me make my own decisions (mistakes?) after that.

Parents are human, and many of them make a lot of mistakes.
There are all kinds of different mistakes a parent can make,
but one of the ones that does the most harm is not fostering
a trusting relationship. This is almost never the kid's fault.
Getting this right starts very early -- years before independence.

The transition from being a kid to being on your own is for some
gradual and for others sudden. Some parents *do* like to meddle
with grown children as Valerie suggests. Certainly not all.
I'd like to believe most parents who do are trying to help
keep their kids from making mistakes, but it's often misguided
because many mistakes are necessary for learning to happen.

There are also certain cultures that have strongly differing
norms with respect to the timing of independence. 
I don't think there is any right answer, but communication
is recommended. Often that is not a possibility when trust
is not there, and then you wind up in conflict.

Okay, here's a question for those parents out there.  What does it take
for you to forgive your child for their mistakes?  Is it enough for the
child to admit his/her mistake and learn from it?  or do you expect more?
Because it seems to me that sometimes once a child loses his/her parents'
trust, he/she can never regain it :(

Speaking as a parent:

1)  Parents who do not understand that their children
are not them (the parents) will find it difficult to
forgive their children for much of anything;

2)  Parents who do not understand that the basic job is
to get the children out of the nest and flying on their
own (ever watch nature programs?) will find it difficult
to understand that mistakes are learning experiences,
generating very little to forgive;

3)  Parents that hang on too tightly are defying nature
and their children will rebell, for which they do not
need forgiveness;

4)  Parents who have stopped trusting their children must
analyze whether an unrelated third party would have lost trust
under similar circumstances, explain the breach of trust, if
it is real, and convince themselves and their children that
trust can always be rebuilt, though seldom by the act of 
apology along; and

5)  Parents and children both must understand that a breakdown
of trust need not mean the breakdown of love.

What I have always told my children:  "Death is the only
problem for which there is no solution.  Take care of yourselves."

I would like for the child to admit the mistake, but try to understand
that, depending on the age of the child, the child may not always realize
that a mistake was made.  In either case, admitting it or not, I watch for
signs of having learned from it, and always believe in another chance.

I try to explain why I am disappointed or upset with whatever it is the
kid has done and what should have happened instead.  I do remove priviledges
for a "short" while and then allow full trust again.

Of course my kids are only 7 & 11 right now so I don't expect quite as much
from them as I will when they are older.  It is getting hard to explain to
the 11 year old why I come down on him a bit harder than I do his little
sister, but he usually understands when I point out that he got away with
more when he was her age.

And as children get older the definition of mistake may vary from
parent to child.  

I have three children, and can think of no unforgiven mistakes. I want
only that they understand it was a mistake, and I hope they learned
from it. Punishment for mistakes has been *very* rare -usually just
my own expression of displeasure - or paying for something broken. It
might be more likely that they may not forgive *my* mistakes!

This item, agora #51, has been linked to smalls/parents conference
as #64.   (Comments will come later)

Agora 51 is now linked to InBetween 23.

This response has been erased.

Why would you need to forgive their mistakes?  If a kid steals from me or
wrecks my car or shoots me with an automatic weapon, then the question of
whether I forgive him or not arises.  But if he ignores my advice, dates
the wrong people, drops out of college, gets pregnant (ok, she), and
bankrupts General Motors, then he hasn't offended against me and there is
nothing for me to forgive him.  Kids not living up to your expectations is
no crime against you.

I think of "mistakes" in a broader sense. As a parent I am concerned about
my children's well-being, not just mine. Therefore if their well-being
is threatened by their I am concerned, and want to help. When the help
is ignored or refused, it take some effort - even foregivness - to keep
trying. 

I think that parents should accept their children for who they are and not
who the parents want them to be.  No one is perfect, right?  But sometimes
there's a fine line between wanting the best for your children and wanting
them to be happy.  You think you know what is best for them, yet if they
don't think so, should you respect their opinions and let them go ahead,
or push your advice onto them?
(note: if any of this sounds iffy it's because I'm not a parent and cannot
 know for sure how a parent think, but I do have a younger sister... and
 because we are nine years apart, I see things both from her point of view
 and my parents' point of view)

It makes a tremendous difference how old the children are, and where they
are in the *process* of responsibility being transferred from you to
them. It does not happen overnight. Most of the "conflict" arises from
a difference of perceptions of the parents yielding responsibility and
the children assuming responsibility. There is no easy way to get these
"exactly" attuned.

#14: Sure it is. If you kid grows up and turns out to be a mass rapist, 
     people will say, "That Jan Wolter raised a mass rapist. There's 
     something wrong with him." Likewise, if your kid grows up and turns
     out to be a Nobel Prize winner, people will say, "That Jan Wolter
     is a great person and raised a Nobel Prize winner." 

     If you disavow any responsibility for anything your child does, then
     you are correct in your assertion that your child's actions cannot
     offend you. That is not reality and rightfully so.

#16: I disagree. What 12 year old knows who they are and what they want to
     do with their lives? Do you think the Greztky's and the Mozarts of this
     world became the greatest because their parents said, "Oh, you're 
     tired of practicing after 20 minutes? Go play with your friends then."
     
     Imagine what could have been of Gretzky, the greatest hockey player to
     ever put on skates. Instead of pushing and supporting their extremely
     gifted child, Wayne, Mr. and Mrs. Gretzky let's him "go ahead" and
     "be happy." 12 year old Wayne, instead of player 16 year olds like he
     really did, went to the arcades daily because it made him "happy." 
     Instead of pushing their son Wayne to practice and play hockey maybe
     20 or 30 hours a week, they let him watch 40 hours of TV because it 
     makes him "happy" and he, being a mature 12 year old, knows what he wants
     and knows what makes him "happy." Think over this question long
     and hard: What is more absolutely demoralizing than to know that you 
     could have been the greatest hockey player/pianist/musician/etc. but
     lived an average life because your parents did not push you to pursue
     what could have been phenomenal? What could be a greater crime of 
     parents against their children? 

     My parents were strict compared to Westerners but pretty average compared
     to their Chinese peers. I have analyzed my parents extensively and I 
     think I would be even more strict and guiding than they were. I hold  
     myself accountable for all my shortcoming and failures, but I think I
     would have benefited from a more structured and intensive upraising.

OTOH, if parents push kids very hard at something the kids may be good at,
but don't like doing, the kid may end up regretting not having had some
experience with something they were interested in.  Who knows... if I had
been forced to play hockey several hours a day, I might have turned into a
very good hockey player.  Still, I don't sit around regretting never
having played hockey.  I've managed to do a lot of things I've liked doing,
and managed to get good at some of them.

You're attacking a straw man, Steve. From experience and from observation,
it is usually pretty clear after a couple of weeks whether 
someone -- a child or an adult -- has any talent at an activity. One does
not need to play hockey for 20 hours a week for 5 years to determine whether
one can achieve greatness in hockey. One doesn't have to practice piano
for 4 hours a day for 10 years to determine whether one has significant
talent (the greatest piano players I grew up with practiced 4-6 hours a day,
seven days a week -- that's almost a full-time job). 

My children have not reached the ages that this is discussing, but
some of it crops up. I want the best for them, and I would prefer that 
they be happy with themselves when they're 30 and 50 and on their 
deathbeds whenever -- but their happiness at the present moment is
not of primary importance, just nice if it can work out.   I hope that
some years of enforced delayed gratification will help them to choose
wisely when they are making more of their own choices.

The foundations of happiness are found in healthy self-image.
I think it goes a long way toward promoting healthy self-image
in children, of any age, if parents actually stop for a second
every now and then to put themselves in their child's shoes.
Empathy.  And, equally important, to *listen* to children as
real people.  Children need limits, yes, and parents need to
teach their children reality, which involves a lot of deferred
gratification.  But that whole process evolves in a much more
productive and healthy way if children are being listened to
and truly responded to along the way.

"No" is often sufficient; "No, because..." is usually better.

One of the joys I'm discovering as a parent is my son doing/creating things
totally independent of anything I've ever told/shown him.  It's times like
that when I think I get a glimpse into the mind of God:  Seeing your progeny
as an independent creation, not simply a robot created to mimic yourself
and go no further.

esp. re #22: take our four-year-old (PLEASE! just bring him back)
as an example of how difficult this can be.  I reflexively reply
to a reasonable request neither with "No" nor "No, because ..."
but with "This is why not".  If he doesn't accept this as cogent,
he will simply repeat the request again.  and again.  and again...

This kind of thing, and worse, gets parents in the habit of not
listening to their children.   But the children do change, being 
human, and we need to be willing to change too.

When children are young they do have to be disciplined.  But there's a
difference between a four year old and me (or so I'd like to think ;)
although others might disagree)  <abchan shrugs>

One of the points I was beating around the bush toward is that
parents & other people tend to react not to you as you are *now*
but to some mixture of that and your personal history.  (This has
its good points, otherwise a lot of time could be wasted in 
checking up on whether you like the same food you liked yesterday
etc. etc.)
The four year old needs to learn self-discipline, you (and I) need to
exercise the same
.

You have to begin while the child is still under your roof, to let them 
make some of their own decisions, whether or not you necessarily agree
with their choices.  It's really hard to stand by and watch your kids
go for something that may end up being painful for them (and I'm talking 
about older kids here-not pre-teens or younger).  But if you don't let
them see that you trust their judgement while they are still under your
protection, they will never learn to trust their own judgement.

Re: 27 very true... I was "protected" all my life and never had to make
any decisions, and as all who know me well will tell you, the amount of
self-confidence I have would fit into a nutshell.  I'm always afraid of
making the wrong decision.  I haven't had enough practice yet, I'm afraid.

Whereas some of us insisted on doing things our own way, whether it was
wise or not, from a very early age.  The aforementioned 4-year-old
shows definite signs of being his father's son.

And, now that he's been brought up again, I'm reminded to say: parents
need some listening to as well.  This particular kid does *not* engage
in discussion; as soon as he understands that he's being told to do
something he doesn't want to, he begins a continuous monologue amounting
to "I don't want to" and apparently designed to postpone the awful
moment forever, if possible.  He is, after all, only 4; but it does
develop in me the habit of assuming any argument he produces is no more
than a delaying tactic.  This isn't always the case, just mostly.

My 2-1/2 year old was in a "no" mood recently.  I had tuned her out,
being all too used to the cycle and knowing that at some point she might
say okay to soemthing.  My oldest, OTOH, got a kick out of the 
stady stream of "no, no, no" from her little sister, so she asked her
first "will you say no for me?" "NO" "Okay, want a lollipop?" "NO" !!!
Ah, the learning process....

This response has been erased.

(Why is that so sad?)

actually, I kinda think it's funny, but other than that, I realize it's
a "systemic no" not a "specific no", and try to supply words to pinpoint
the frustration the kid is feeling: I think they say "no" to indicate that
the world isn't entirely just right at the moment- might even be frustation
about not being able to ask for ice cream...  Anyway, that seems to help. 
Unfortunately, my current 2 year old says "ok" and "uh huh" as well as "no",
but chooses to express frustration by screaming... (also by squirming and
kicking on the changing table because he doesn't want to be interrupted for
a diaper.  we keep telling him he can get back to playing faster if he will
be still...)

My parents have a problem remembering that they raised me to be 
a good person and taught me a lot.  Sometimes they forget that I
am 22 years old and am pretty darn smart.

This is a common form of parental myopia.

Geee, the systemic "no" and the specific "no" experience (particularly
the ice cream episode) is an easy teacher of definitions!
  
Viva la lacrimae!

I am reminded of an incident at the Dr.s' office recently...My grandson,
Joey was afraid to step on the scales...he burst into tears...I simply got d
down to eye level with him and spoke to him, showed him the scale would
not hurt him by placing first my purse, then myself on it...showed him it
could be fun...offered to stand on it with him...he complied, then agreed
to stand on it alone...all this took about 4 minutes.  The nurse got the
information she needed, I had special time...one on one...with Joey, and
he learned about scales.  At the end of the visit, the nurse approached
me to tell me that the way I "handled" Joey's problem was very unique and
she was so happy that I didn't do what most adults would have done...I was
stunned!  I had to ask what most adults would have done...I think that
is a sad comment to hear.  Personally, I have found that while a child is
small, if you give appropriate choices (you are teaching independence and 
trust of self), remain consistent (you are teaching by example and 
repitition (sp?) ), and treat them as if they were just small, still-
learning beings, you will have a child who is fairly well adjusted, 
self trusting enough to be independent, yet nurturing enough to remain
close to family and friends... I also believe that children should be
introduced to all kinds of activities.  They seem, in my experience,
to learn best by doing things,  I think Girl and Boy Scouts are great
in that they strive to introduce new worlds, topics, flavors, cultures, activ
activities, and responsibilities to
activities, and responsibilities to children through a "doing" - "hands-
on" approach.  In this way, children get to discover for themselves, in
a safe and healthy manner, the things that they like to do, see, etc.
Of course, this is only my opinion...and I am still raising kids.

(Wish *I* was raised that way . . . . )

Freida, that's lovely.  It makes so much sense.  Of course, you were attending
to how the little guy was feeling and what he was thinking, not worrying
about the time or being embarassed by his display of fright or distracted
by your own worries or whatever...

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss