I have a topic of discussion that I believe deserves some intelligent
conversation.  First of all let me introduce myself to those of you who do
not know me.  My name is Dan Hoppe, I live in Monroe, MI. I have a wife of
8 years, and two children. Ive been using Grex for about 2 months now, and
have been browsing the conferences to find the ones that suit me..

It seems to me that all woman I come in contact with have an insecurity

problem.  My wife, a beautiful woman, finds herself unattractive, and
overweight.  She is neither of these.  This is not the problem though.
The problem is in her self-esteem. Do you think that woman are like this
because of the stereo-typical lifestyle that is laid out before them?
Do you think it is their parents rearing?  Please help me to understand.
And Please lets keep the conversation on a mature level.  It is so uncommon
these days for men to speak in a civilized manner. And with that I will leave
the rest up to you.

34 responses total.

I certainly don't think "all women" have low self esteem.  I also think it
is as likely to be found in men.  It appears to be one of the pitfalls of
growing up and being tested as an adult.

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Men also has some insecurities women don't tend to have (or as badly).
Of course, it's tough to split these things down gender lines, since I
know women who don't care much about their appearance ... they nay try
to look attractive, if they get around to it ... and men who are just
obsessed with it.  Advertisers, though, definitely feed off female
insecurities, and make them much much worse.
As for male insecurities, since it's difficult for us to ask for judgments
of emotional worth and interaction, we tend to channel that energy into
issues of sexual worth and prowess, and get insecure about our skill and
attractiveness in sexual settings, I think.  Women do that too, but not 
nearly to the degree...

The point you have raised Val is interesting.  I was just thinking about it
today.  You know from a small girl woman are taught what they are supposed
to look like a six foot blonde with a big chest.  **Barbie**

I feel sorry for any women who feels like they have to be that way but get a
grip it's just TV. 

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And we also know real-life people, our friends, family, and co-workers,
who make it clear that pretty is good and not-so-pretty is not so good.

I'll be the first to admit that I used to take that attitude Katie.  I dont
know where it came from, and why.  Is it something we are taught at a young
age ?  Is it something I was taught from others by the way I was treated. 
I was always the little guy in class and therefore received  the butt end of
many jokes.  Although you would think if anything it would teach me not to
be the same to others.  In any respect I have learned that just because
someone is different, It doesnt make them any less human..

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That is exactly the way my sife is Val.  She becomes obsessed with the way
other woman look.  "God I wish I was that thin" "If only I was that tall"
"what a beautiful girl, if only", she'll say.
I cant understand it.  My wife is a 5'7" beautiful woman.  She has absolutely
nothing to be jealous about or  ashamed about.  Woman, you can tlive with 'em
you cant figure 'em out.

Oh, I must revive this poor dying item... breathe!

My mother is very insecure and although she didn't intend to, she raised me
the same way. She is very dependent on my dad for all of her needs, financial
and emotional. I don't think my dad has a problem with that since he was
taught that that's when men do, take care of their wives. But I think it
drains him to have her so dependent on him. when I was growing up I'd hear
things along the lines of "Try this outfit on, it makes you look thin", "You
don't want to apply to that college, only really smart people get in there",
and so forth. i didn't realize until I was 18 or so how destructive all this
was and how bad it made me feel inside. And I am just now knowing that she
said these things (and she still says them) because she is insecure herself,
and was also raised to be dependent on someone else. It has taken a lot of
time and tears for me to understand all this. 

Dan, I don't know what to tell your wife but I can see she's lucky to have
a supportive husband in her life. You know, when she says things like "oh if
only I were that thin" and so on, it may be because she wants to hear that
"Oh, you're not fat, you look good" reassurance from you or her frieneds or
whoever (uh make that friends!). A lot of my friends in high schol were that
way. She may have been raised to doubt herself like I was. But in a lot of
people I see that craving for reassurance that their peers think they're ok.

In the spirit of the original header here. . .
Is this tendency truly societal, or could it be something hormonal? When
survival had to be fought for, women generally depended on bigger, stronger
men for food and protection. Could the insecurity that sets in during
adolescence be a carry-over? Just a thought.

I am inclined to think it's a carry over from adolescence. Women are still
taught to depend on a man when they grow up. Nothing wrong with falling in
love and getting married and all that, but we need to be able to take care
of ourselves... there is no promise that your spouse will be with your
forever. I know of many women who were widows by the time they were 35.
And women had more responsibilities than we think in prehistoric times.
Imagine cleaning a bear! Ugh. More power to them.

Well Bee you are right about my wife...Her folks really did a number on her
when she was young.  We ahve been married going on 9 years now and we dated
for 4 years prior to that, I have been trying like mad to de-program the
damage that her parents did but as yet have not been able to reverse it.  I
shall continue to plug away at it though...

Here is a perfect example: I am a singer/songrwriter my wife is a singer but
not by trade.  She just up and one day started singing and my jaw hit the
floor.  Now I just want to preface this by saying that I have been doing the
whole music scene for a long time and that I am not just saying these things
because she is my wife.  My wife could carry her own with the likes of Mariah,
Whitney and CeCe Winans.  She however was told so many time as a child that
she was no good, that she would never be anything that she is deathly afraid
to step on a stage.  This is not just regular old stage fright either, this
is flat out destruction caused by her parents...I must say though that if we
have learned anything its not to make the same mistakes with our children..

Well I will stop bablling now..

(You might mention to your wife, Dan, that a lot of really gifted people also
have terrible stage fright.  Carly Simon didn't perform live for something
like 15 years, because she was so afraid of the stage; but last summer she
went on tour.  Katie and I saw her, and she was great!)

I didn't know you were a musician! My parents have done a lot of the same
things to me, although they didn't mean to. My mom is very unsure of herself
and early on I was taught not to trust myself (I cann't remember but I think
I mentioned this before). And because I am a night person, I'd often sleep
very late on Saturdays. This was plain laziness according to my dad. If I
didn't get up when he told me to, I'd get literally yelled at about being a
"big baby" and "lazy and good for nothing". He didn't understand why this
would upset me. Whenever I was punished for something-- whether I deserved
the punishment or not-- I took it as an indication that he did not love me
anymore. That's a huge burden for a kid, wondering what she can do to make
daddy love her again. It made no sense to me that you could hit a child out
of love... still doesn't.

We get along fine now but if I bring up something they said a long time ago
that hurt me badly, they either don't remember or laugh at my reaction. They
both think I am over sensitive. My mom is more in tune to saying destructive
things now but she still has the "you can't trust yourself" mentality. I think
if parents knew how easily kids are bruised they'd watch what they say and
do. My dad couldn't imagine why I thought he didn't love me anymore since he
was just doing what parents were supposed to do, or what his parents did to
him. I've dealt with a lot of it but I find myself seeking approval form
others many times (fishing for compliments, asking people if they like this
or that about me) and being meticulous about my looks. We all want that
reassureance that we're ok, since we were brought up my the two peole who were
supposed to love us the most to think that we wre defective.

Well Bee, my dear it sounds like you have got yourself on the right track...I
don't know how old you are but I can say as a parent that when you have
children learn from what you have experienced....I would also say that there
is a verse from the Bible that I learned a long time ago ( and no i am not
tryinbg to quote scripture here..heaven know i am no saint, but i do believe
that  there are som fundamental truths that can be found within its pages)
anyways with that said the verse basically said that you should not let the
sun set on your anger.  This has helped me a great deal with my marriage and
being a Father.  No matter how mad I may get at my children I am always
prudent about letting them know how much I truly love them each nite befor
they go to sleep.

Yes Marc I have tried those tactics but unfortunately she is not buying...
the world will never know...

I'm 23. Nothing like 8 months of therapy to straighten you out, eh? I'm not
a parent and wouldn't want to be for a while. I'm just now seeing what a huge
responsibility it is and how hard it must be to let go when they get older.
I've been told I'd make a great mom but I don't know if I'm up to the loss
of freedom, the neediness they have, and the financial obligations. Then
there's these scary childbirth stories I keep hearing... yikes!

I would rather listen to what they have to say than be a dictator. As for when
they got older, if my son wanted to get his ear pierced in 3 places, fine.
It's his ears and if he regrets it later, that's his problem. I think as long
as the kids weren't getting involved in something that would lead to death
(like excessive drinking, sex or drugs), then it's best to just relax. I mean
if the worst thing my kid does is get a tattoo, then I think I've gotten off
lucky. I know of one mother whose 17 year old daughter wanted a small tattoo
on her hip. Instead of fighting it, her mom went with her. Her rationale was:
it's her money, her life, her body, and if she went with her daughter to get
the tattoo, she was making sure that she was safe and that it was done with
clean needles. 

Is your wife doing any better?

No not really...She is a stubborn woman..and I am not about to force anything
on her.....You know my mom was pretty liberal when I was growing up also...She
steared me away from bad thing like drugs...but she really just let me learn
and live...I will talk about this later..talking about my mom is still kind
of hard for me...She passed away this last year and I find taht dwelling on
that makes it worse...Ill be back later...sorry

You were so lucky to be born to a woman like that, Dan.  It will take a while,
but someday you will be able to think and talk about her all you want without
so much pain.  My mother died two years ago at age 81, I still miss her
dearly, but I can think about her and look at her things without the pain.
But it has taken two years.

The thing that really has bothered me about the whole thing is that my mom
was only 50....That is just too young to die...She was however a strong will
woman..who did things her way and set an incredible example for my life...
thanks Audrey...:)

Yikes Dan... I'm really sorry. I think if one of my parents were to die now,
it would be the total and complete devastation of my life.

Well it wasn't all that bad...sure it hurt alot but by the time my mom passed
away it was a Godsend...The hardest part was watching the strongest woman I
have ever met wither away to nothing...Cancer is a very real and evil
disease...
I am sorry if I got us off of our subject, but sometimes it just does me good
to talk about it and get it off my chest...Thank you for listening...
<bubu hugs bee and doc>

Oh.. cancer. You'd think they'd have found a cure by now, it's been around
so long. Nowadays all you hear about is AIDS, how we need to find a cure this
instant. While it's certainly a horrible disease, and we DO need to find a
cure, and educate people on how you can/cannot get it, it'sl like cancer isn't
important anymore. People still smoke, drink too much, eat bad foods. It's
like they don't think it can happen to them. It's evern worse when you take
care of yourself and get it anyway. My grandmother died of bone cancer. It
was a horrible experience for me... I do not want to go out like that.

You are so kind...thank you...Yes if only we could find cures for these
terrible diseases...but you know what...Once we find a cure for them a long
comes another...I think unfortunately with all of our technological advances
and well with all of the smoke, smog, and toxins that we put in the air every
day disease is inevitable...
Well back to our subject..I have noticed the last couple fo days that my wife,
Joelle is becoming a bit more confident....About her appearance anyway..She
began her workout again and when she works out she feels good about
herself..She doesnt' really need to work out but if it makes her feel better
about herself I say have at it...

Me too :) i start taekwondo ahgain next week... yay!

Bet that helps you with your self-esteem,...

Yeah, because it gives you this feeling of power. You have this special
ability that isn't obvious. You have the confidence that should someone try
and mess with you, you can take care of yourself. It's also good for self
discipline and stress release (nothing like hollering "kiai!" at the top of
your lungs). It'll also help me get back into my jeans comfortably again :(

The drive of every Red Blooded American Woman...To be able to fit into her
jeans comfortably...
Maybe I should try it for the stress release....Tell ya this much...I
wouldn't mess with ya..

Well, snug jeans ARE uncomfy. I'm not saying I hate my body or anything, just
that there is some room for improvement is all. Actually the goal of karate
is not to use it... it's supposed to teach you mental discipline to where you
don't fight someone unless you have no other alternative. Not just jumping
in and trying to kill someone. And those white outfits are very comfortable.

(Good traditional martial arts are something everyone should study)

Not for a pacifist. 
Btw, I guess almost nobody is really satisfied with their body.
Blame it on the media. In the middle ages pudgy women with
big thighs and small breasts were IT! Nowadays you gotta look like
a nail with two balloons pinned to it. And men should
all look like Arnold S.
As for me I look like a nail with a head on it. (Trying to keep it
that way, I'm in my thirties now).

Wish I had kept it that way clees!!!I was 128 lbs..when I got married over
8 years ago now I am closing in on 180..UghhhhhI was always the kid that
said,"I won't ever get any bigger..I can eat all I want and never gain weight"
Boy, oh Boy was I wrong!

I think the heaviest I've been was around my first marriage, up
around 230 or so =P  Grad school took some pounds off me, as did
commuting an hour and a half each way for a semester, but if marriage
is used as the sole indicator, beingdoubly married is really good for 
my weight... I'm down to about 210 or so, the lowest I've been since
high school and about 15 pounds higher than where I want to be.

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