A friend of ours has married badly.  He works full-time, keeps house, cooks,
and watches the baby when he gets home.  She sits around and complains.  He's
reached the point where he dreads entering his own home.  He isn't seeking a
divorce yet, but she's been mentioning things like how much of the property
he brought into the marriage she'd get in a settlement.  I want to help the
poor guy; does anybody here know someplace I might refer him for help in
improving his situation or, as I fear is inevitable, protecting himself when
she and her lawyers start carving him up?
---
Note: Yes, really, a friend.  My own marriage is so happy we're embarrassing
to be around.  We met through this guy.  We owe him.  Please help.

29 responses total.

The best source for actual assistance in divorce, as well as some marital
and propert counseling, is ADAM.  Unfortunately, I don't remember either 
what the letters stand for or how to contact them, but try looking up A D A M
in the phone book.  It's a legal agency which handles exclusively divorces
for males.

I tried that before I came here; ADAM is exactly what I was hoping someone
would help me find.  They weren't listed anywhere my wife or I thought to
look.

Here is a list of relevant looking sources provided by Warren Farrell in
The Myth of Male Power (1993, p. 428):
  
Children's Rights Council.  David Levy. 202 547 6227
Fathers for Equal Rights.  Alan Z. LeBow. 313 354 3080  <-- note area code!
Fathers for Equal Rights/Iowa.  Dick Woods.  515 277 8789
The Joint Custody Assoication.  James Cook.  310 475 5352
Men's Rights, Inc.  Fred Hayward. 916 484 7333
National Center for Men.  Mel Feit.  718 845 2010
National Men''s Resource Center.  Gordon Clay.  415 453 2839

There are others on the list, but these seem the most relevant.  Unfortunately,
the list is not annotated, and of course in the two or three intervening
years som eof the contact names may have changed.  If you're AA local, the
best starting point would probably be Fathers for Equal Rights.  At any rate,
*they* should know how to contact ADAM.

Thank you.

Peter P. Darrow, Attorney at Law
Mann, Lipnik & Darrow
440 City Center Building
Ann Arbor, MI  48104

This response has been erased.

valerie> cf. the familiar conversations on male ob/gyns.
i agree, for the most part.  gender-based lawyers are wher you go when you're
expecting a war.  it sounded like that is what was anticipated in this case.

Given that she's already told him, "I'd get half your books," I think war's
been declared.

Regarding the property settlement issue:  I thought that in Michigan,
property owned prior to the marriage by one of the spouses is not
considered to be joint property.

What's owned by the man prior to the marriage becomes jointly owned
by the wife.  What's owned by the wife prior to marriage remains
legally hers alone.  This is very old law that pertains to real estate
property in Michigan.  I'm not sure it carries over to goods like
art, stereos, books, etc.

Anyone know?

Just be sure to get a damn good lawyer! Things will get very ugly before
they get better.:( trust me!

Its cheaper to keeper. Get a mistress and cool out.

Uh... ok. Man this item is rusty. I am posting here because I have found that
2 more of my friends are getting divorces and I want to know how I can help.
Altogether 3 couples I know are splitting up. a synopsis:

Couple #1: Met in high school. Married in 1994, with no one giving them a
chance in hell of staying together. Separated in January of 1996. Are
divorcing, which will take about 4 months. I was firends with the groom for
years. Groom has now moved far away but keeps in contact with us, but does
not seem remosreful about divorce. Wife has moved in with her grandmother and
reportedly is freaking out, but wishes to sever all ties with friends, me
included. I sent her a "call if you need me" card but got no response. :(
Cannot get ahold of her now since I don't know where she lives.

Couple #2: Met in college. Wife was also a high school friend of mine. Had
always wanted to just marry and raise kids. Married in 1993. One son, who is
1 1/2.  Husband has affair, wife doesn't know it. Husband leaves her, saying
he never loved her, never wanted to marry her, and does not want custody of
son. Ick. She has moved in with her parents, will finish school and is in
therapy.

Couple #3: Met 2 years ago. Were dating for about 5 months and got engaged.
Broke off engagement since husband said it was moving troo fast, although he
was the one who proposed.  Discovered wife was pregnant one month later and
got married.  Guy appeared to be nice and went to school and worked. Not sure
what happened, but guy has left her. Devastaing for wife, whose own parents
had a messy divorce that scarred her for life. She is living with her mom and
stepdad. Son is about 8 months old.l

All copuples are my age or thereabouts (23). Why do I feel so old all the
sudden?

I don't know what to tell you Bee.  I have seen divorce in so many situations
except my own.  My parents divorced when I was quite young...(then re-married
about 4 years ago BTW)  One of my best friends in the world just recently
divorced..and a dear friend..probably the best friend my mom ever had...is
going throught the process with her husband of oh probably 29-30 years...One
thing I have noticed in most cases is that the couple doesn't spend good
quality time together..This is so unfortunate..It rips away at the fabric that
binds a couple together....My wife and I always make time where it is just
her and i nobody else..This is some of the most precious time  for
us...especially with two kids...I also believe that a couple needs to develop
the realtionship beyond the marital bounds..by that i mean become friends...My
wife and I are best friends...There is nothing I can't talk to her
about....There is no place I would want to go without her...Unfortunately I
don't know why some couples can't have this kind of relationship with each
other..Maybe it is the upbringing..I don't know...I will say that alot of my
religous briging up in life has helped..but I know people who are just as
happy as Joelle and I and have never stepped foot in a church except to get
married..and I know people who have been comitted to a religous belief and
still fail at marrieage...Is there any One cure for the ill-fate of marriage
today...No  I dont think so...I think maybe people should be a little more
selective before marrying and maybe that would be a good place to start and
for me to finish....
<set shrink mode = off>

What's weird are my grandpaernts, who have been married over 50 years. If
there is any candidate for divorce it's them. They constantly yell and fight
and argue. I have never seen them hug, or say an i love you. I think they just
have a "we'll tough it out" attitude. Mom (their daughter) also screams when
she is mad.. she just doesn't know any other way to work out problems.

My firend (coupld #2, whose hubby cheated on her) did definitely get married
too quickly. She was 20 or 21 at the time and married the first serious guy
that came along. All she ever wanted was to marry and be a mom. She quit
school to raise the baby and had no intention of going back. Now she has a
baby AND school to contend with. Hopefully her asswipe of a husband will pay
child support even though he doesn't want custody. I used to be jealous of
my friends who married.. I do know of some that are doing great. But I am so
glad I didn't rush off and marry. It seems my friends wanted the marriage
itself... the wedding and the ring and the "I'm married and you're not"
satisfaction. But they didn't want to be MARRIED. 

I am just guessing Dan, But I believe that I am the friend that just got
divorced that you're talking about. My advice is that even if your friends
don't appear to want to talk or correspond, keep trying. They are having such
an overwhelming emotional overload right now that they do not know what they
really want. They will need more than anything, an ear and a shoulder. 
  Speaking from my experience only, they are looking at the future and they
are scared, they see nothing. That is what fear does, it blinds you. They 
may be feeling pretty bad about themselves, but they have to work through 
it. It's really hard to explain, but noone can really help with the emotional
part of it. The individual has to come to understand what they are feeling,
why they are feeling that way, and resolve the emotional aspect of it on their
own, and sometimes that takes a very long time.
  I believe that a great many of the population cannot commit to things
anymore. When things stop smelling like roses, they move on. It's all part
of this ever changing world and their everchanging morals. It's all a shame
butwhat can you do? Many times one person wants to stay commited to their 
vows, but the other doesn't. It's the storms of life that seem to cause the
most destruction, everybody wants life to be a cakewalk and don't want to
hassle with the rough parts, the ones that do are the ones that last.
  One last thing, Dan and Joelle's marriage is the "ideal" marriage, and the
things that Dan says he really lives. I don't want to say a whole lot more
because I don't want to make my bestest buddy blush, but his wonderful mother
and I had to front some big bucks to get Joelle to talk to him, and to our
surprise she fell in love with him, and didn't make us pay after the second
year of their marriage.(said in jest)

<Dan Blushes>
Well yes my friend you were one of the folks I was referring to, I just
didn;'t want to come right out and throw your name into the pot...Your
situation I believe is a unique on my friend...You did your best to keep that
whole thing going for too long if you ask me...You did every thing right,She
on the other hand did not...you should be proud of the way you handled
yourself under very rough circumstances....I know, I know there is the
whole..Well I didnt see it all the way through...Just remember You did good
my Boy....That is enough building you up now..I must move on..

Historically people married for some clearly defined and practical
reasons.  They needed each other.  People don't tend to need 
each other in quite the same ways.  Frankly, I'm amazed as many
make it as do.  

So true, robb. My friend whose husband cheated on her wants the posh downtown
apartment, the car and the big life... he just had to get his wife and kid
out of the way first. It seems my friends didn't realize that life was AHRD...
that bills can be overdue, tires can go flat, cars can break down with no
money to fix them, the baby will be up all night, they'll be tired from
working all week. (ahrd.. der, you know it's HARD!).

I would think marriage has more advantages than disadvantages. But it's got
to be hard to stay in love all the time!

I think the staying in Love part comes naturally..That is the easy part or
at least from my vantage point.  The hard part is making every thing work
together to come out good in the end..and be able to maintain that level of
life..

Sigh. I wish I understood. I know people who are ver much in love, but freely
admit there are times when they'd trade each other for a Diet Coke.

Congrats on the promotion, mr. moneybags :)

<bubu grins from ear to ear>

:
hello,
    i have read many of the entries in this conference.  Here is my
situtation,and I will be brief.  I had gotten married young and now i'm 29
and i just do not wish to be married annylonger.  I have 2 children that i
love very much.  For the past 3 years i have felt very controlled, and have
developed quite a attitude twards women because they worship contol.  I know
that will piss some ladies off!  Anny how i have never been unfathfull.
  My wife and iI hardly ever fight, we get along rather well.  I just don't
want to be married annymore.  
I have given this a lot of thought.  I don't want to hurt my wife or my
children but if i'm not happy she cannot be..i just want out! i want to just
walk out and leave everything here i dont want anny thing except this paper
weight, and this chair, and the remoote control  ( the  jerk..didi you see
the movie sorry had to put that in.)    You see she thinks all is just rosey
but i'm misserable.  I have to just get the guts to mess up everybody life
her...  do i make sence???

Nope.

Have you tried talking to her Bronco? Letting her know how you fell.  I don't
think that saying women worship control is accurate.  Sure some women do but
so do some men.  I can't say if you are in the right or if she is.  Nobody
should be under the control of another person, and if that is your case I
could understand your situation.  

Yes, you make sense, bronco.  I don't know if you're looking for 
advice here or not but I'll give you some anyhow.  First, tell 
your wife you're feeling numb and uncomfortable and you're not sure
where it's coming from, and you're going to see a counselor about
it.  This brings her up to speed somewhat and gets you to the most
important second step - talking to a professional.  Your marriage
might be past the point of repair.  You may be better off divorced.
But you may also be in a state of clinical depression and maybe some
help with this could change your whole outlook on your marriage, on
life.  There is a lot of good that can come from taking guided tour
or your past and present life.  

Sometimes a miserable marriage isn't the cause but more the symptom of a
problem.  The sequela from depressions is all over the emotional and
physical map.  And it can most certainly present with feeling of
disconnectedness, emotional distance, lack of energy to address problems,
and the profound desire to just remove yourself from family and friends. 

Anyhow, if it eventually turns out that your marriage is over you'll not
have wasted your time.  You'll most likely have a much clearer idea of
what went wrong and what you want.  And you'll be in a better position 
to see your needs and the needs of those you love.

Take care.  Good luck.

Good news, one of my friends has gotten back with her husband! (not the
cheating one... he has now been taken to court for not paying child support)

 Well here is a update.  Last week I brought her up to date as far as my
feelings are.  I told her that I'm not sure I want a divorce, but I do want
more controll over my what goes on conserning me.  I confesssed that I feel
resentment twards the marrage and as a result it manafest as resentment to
her.  Again, I do not know if I wish to be divorced; just perhaps more in
controll of what I do.  I could bring up situtations of where I had felt a
total loss of controll, but when I do we end up arguing over a sitituation
that we had already argued over.  I told her  that I'm constantly envious of
people that didnt have to worry about the imput of there spouse when they
wanted to do something or go somewhere.  That there are times when I want to
do something and simply because she dosent want to join in I'm left guilty
wanting to do it, but stifleing my wants just so I can " keep the peace"  I
told my wife that  when she suggested leaving that it would not be a good idea
to mess up everybody life just yet because I'm not sure exactley what is going
to become of this or when.  She said she would like everything to be the way
it was ( I took this as acknowledgement that she feels there is distance
between us)  We both agreed that counceling is a good idea for the same
reasons you mentioned Chelsea.  Divorce might not be a good result here?  but
then again it might be?  but I think it would more damaging to my children
and us if we made the wroing decision.  thanks for your comments BUBU and
chelsea, your very kind in answering!
 you may e mail me here at grex if oyou like.  Thank you! kurt!

Well Kurt it sounds like you are off to a good start...I think you are right
you should have more control over what you do and without guilt...The great
thing about my wife and I is that we have much the same interests...We both
like hockey, roller skating, that sort of thing...Things haven't always been
that way, but we have been married almost 9 years now, She is my best friend
and there isn't much I would like to do without her.  I do though ask her if
she minds if I go out with my buddies or something and she does the same. 
It really isn;'t a matter of asking permission, it is nmore of a courtesy with
us..just to make sure the other doesn't already have plans...I hope things
continue to go good for you and your wife...Good luck...

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